| Posted by: Alphaunit1 at February 4, 2006, 2:35 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | | I'm done with this discussion. It's a round-robin argument. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, and I can guarantee that although I absolutely understand the world view you are bringing to this argument (I understood that fairly early on in this thread), I still feel that in the "real world" you can't take the actions you describe and expect to have any business integrity moving forward -- and that sometimes there is no "perfect" solution. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: ed209 at February 4, 2006, 12:35 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: I'd actually like someone here who is saying that putting them back on the blacklist is wrong to answer the question I posed - How can you justify not warning the other guy knowing what you know?
I can justify it simply because I don't give a sh*t about the 'other guy'. in fact, I might find it strangely satisfying that he screws himself because he didn't read any of the numerous lengthy threads both here and the Zoo over the past few weeks, and then tries to cry about it by saying it wasn't on the "Official Bonus Whores (aka Universe) Blacklist". any dumbass like that doesn't deserve anyone's help in the first place.
you want to tell the world about Bet365, set up your own site or find another one that cares. don't try and play the 'integrity' card with Jek while at the same time continuing to utilize his resources. makes you a lot more hypocritical that what you're accusing him of. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at February 4, 2006, 11:26 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | ed209 wrote:
when did you get the delusion that anyone here is YOUR friend?
Haha.
I know you're joking, but in case anyone feels there's an actual distiction, replace "friend" with "guy sitting next to you." It doesn't change anything.
I'd actually like someone here who is saying that putting them back on the blacklist is wrong to answer the question I posed - How can you justify not warning the other guy knowing what you know? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: TheFranchise at February 4, 2006, 2:05 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Osric wrote: even without the 'blacklist', they are going to be badmouthed for a long, long, long time.
People got paid by taking Bet365 off the blacklist. Yep, being off the blacklist here actually does bet365 no good because the mere mention of their name in the future will bring forth anger and contempt -- such as the following:
Hey, bet365, good luck with your future poker endeavors. Whoever is in charge of this over there should be fired. I think tomorrow I'll go play on one of the prima network sites that doesn't lie and fuck over its players.
_________________
Remember the first rule of Fight Club. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: ed209 at February 4, 2006, 1:13 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: You take the money (that he owes you). Are you morally obligated not to warn your other friend? I'd say quite the opposite is true - you're morally obligated TO tell you friend. Where's your loyalty? To keeping the promise you made in order to get your own money, or to warning your friends about a scammer?
when did you get the delusion that anyone here is YOUR friend? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at February 4, 2006, 12:38 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Alphaunit1 wrote: I think this is really an issue of personal views of the world. You'd have no problems reneging on your agreement with them to remove them from the blacklist after they had fulfilled their end of the agreement - citing that since they can do it, so can you.
Let's be clear that their "fufilling their end of the agreement" was really just doing what they'd agreed to do all along, not because they wanted to honor their agreements, but rather because they wanted to get rid of bad publicity. In essence, they bought advertising. And the money they used to spend on it was money that was already owed anyway. When somebody pays me with my own money, I tend not to get too excited about them "fufilling their end of the agreement."
Look at it this way. Say you loaned 50 bucks to a guy and he later informed you that he was not ever going to pay you back because, say, your nose is too big. So when he asks a friend of yours to borrow 50 bucks, you warn the frie... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Osric at February 3, 2006, 7:58 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Alphaunit1 wrote:
Bet365 has suffered plenty of negative publicity already from this incident, so they aren't coming out of this unscathed, and not a soul here would recommend them to anybody.
Exactly. They may not be "blacklisted", but they have no link from BW to them. And when some newbie comes on in 2 months and says, "hey I found a great new site called Bet365 and they are offereing a bonus.." you are going to have 50 Bonus Whores loggin on to flame Bet365 because of this. If they are REALLY nice for the next 5 years, a few people here might forget about what they did, but odds are, even without the 'blacklist', they are going to be badmouthed for a long, long, long time.
Which, considering most people don't even look at the list of blacklisted sites enough to know who is and isn't on it, is much much worse. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Alphaunit1 at February 3, 2006, 10:33 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | I think this is really an issue of personal views of the world. You'd have no problems reneging on your agreement with them to remove them from the blacklist after they had fulfilled their end of the agreement - citing that since they can do it, so can you.
However, that is really not the way the real world works, and although Bet365 doesn't necessarily deserve being removed per se, I would be VERY unimpressed if jek/et al. had slapped them back up on the blacklist after they (Bet365) had followed through on their end. Doing so shows a clear lack of ethics on BW's part, and would make my view of them much more suspect in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes doing the "right thing" (taking care of the players) doesn't have a perfect, or neat, solution. Somehow I doubt Jek is 100% thrilled with the end resolution - but maintaining your integrity is far more important than a short term "screw you".
Bet365 has suffered plenty of negative publicity already from this i... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Wadaphuic at February 2, 2006, 12:30 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Mgbfan,
I understand what you're trying to say, however, I look at in a different way. The problem I had with Bet365 is that they refused to honour their promotion to certain players who they decided were abusing the offer. They did this by citing broad policy AFTER those players had fulfilled the conditions of the promotion.
Individually those players were fucked, however, Bonus Whores took action and blacklisted Bet365. I wasn't in the negotiation that followed and I can only assume that the Marketing Department at Bet365 were horrified at the negative publicity and wanted to be removed from the blacklist. I also assume that Bonus Whores agreed to remove them if they paid out the bonus to players who had previously been declined.
To my knowledge Bet365 has since paid out the bonus to those players. Keeping Bet365 on the Blacklist would have only succeded in stopping those players from receiving their bonus.
I, like many other whores on this site, don't really giv... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: TylerSalzman at February 2, 2006, 7:21 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: Mikke_ wrote:
Put them back on the blacklist after an agreed negotiation?
It's not like Bet365 is in a position to cry foul about someone breaking an agreement.
Mikke_ wrote: How many more times would BW be able to get their members their cash back after that kind of trick?
Probably never again, for Bet365. On the slim chance it's ever an issue again, it's likely going to have no effect, as whatever casino or poker room is going to have no idea that this situation ever occured.
It just seems to me that leaving a room off that you KNOW belongs on the list kind of invalidates the list.
And BTW, I can't fly a kite. It's entirely too cold here for that.
Lol.. yeah.. I was tired yesterday and not in a very good mood. I can totally see where you are coming from on this issue. I was soooo pissed when they wouldn't pay out everyone's bonuses after we all put in the raked hands. But can you see it from Bonu... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: mgbfan at February 1, 2006, 11:27 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Mikke_ wrote:
Put them back on the blacklist after an agreed negotiation?
It's not like Bet365 is in a position to cry foul about someone breaking an agreement.
Mikke_ wrote: How many more times would BW be able to get their members their cash back after that kind of trick?
Probably never again, for Bet365. On the slim chance it's ever an issue again, it's likely going to have no effect, as whatever casino or poker room is going to have no idea that this situation ever occured.
It just seems to me that leaving a room off that you KNOW belongs on the list kind of invalidates the list.
And BTW, I can't fly a kite. It's entirely too cold here for that. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at February 1, 2006, 11:24 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | jek187 wrote:
So, basically break an agreement? That doesn't seem like something a website with integrity would do.
Who is your loyalty to? Either way, you're doing a disservice to somebody. If you leave them off the list, you're doing a disservice to the playing community at large. If you put them back on, you're breaking an agreement with a poker room that was blacklisted for ... breaking agreements.
That's what the kids call poetic justice. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Mikke_ at February 1, 2006, 5:49 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: jek187 wrote:
Please propose a viable solution,
I did. Get the bonuses paid and blacklist their ass again. They were blacklisted in the first place because they DESERVED to be blacklisted. A little payola to one of their big affiliates doesn't change the reason it happened.
The question that must be asked is this: Is the blacklist there to serve and inform visitors to BW about potentially deadbeat sites? Or is it there merely as a negotiating tool?
Put them back on the blacklist after an agreed negotiation?
How many more times would BW be able to get their members their cash back after that kind of trick?
_________________
Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: porkrind at February 1, 2006, 4:28 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Jek,
I recommend you create a "Watch List" for sites that commit one major/2-3 minor but corrected or unconfirmed acts of misconduct. BW can still get the referal and you have fulfilled a "Duty to warn" caveat of basic business ethics. Because of the juicy freerolls they offer many players will simply assume the risk of not getting the bonus for a crack at the $30K tourney anyway. If a site continues its poor practices then BW can "Blacklist" them. Additionally you could have Simon ad a watchlist warning to the banner link. (In my case it should be bright red, spinning and playing music so I won't miss it). So let the buyer be warned and be aware.
IMHO, flame on.
Porky
_________________
Recent 3/6 chat on Crypto:
"Sooted three gappers piss me off"
"You are a donkey"
"FU azzwipe"
"Do you screw farm animals too?"
"Yes, No, Maybe, Who cares..."
BW member? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: TylerSalzman at February 1, 2006, 4:20 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: jek187 wrote:
Please propose a viable solution,
I did. Get the bonuses paid and blacklist their ass again. They were blacklisted in the first place because they DESERVED to be blacklisted. A little payola to one of their big affiliates doesn't change the reason it happened.
The question that must be asked is this: Is the blacklist there to serve and inform visitors to BW about potentially deadbeat sites? Or is it there merely as a negotiating tool?
Mgbfan... go fly a kite or something. You don't seem to understand how bargaining works. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: jek187 at February 1, 2006, 1:20 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: jek187 wrote:
Please propose a viable solution,
I did. Get the bonuses paid and blacklist their ass again.
So, basically break an agreement? That doesn't seem like something a website with integrity would do. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at February 1, 2006, 12:23 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | jek187 wrote:
Please propose a viable solution,
I did. Get the bonuses paid and blacklist their ass again. They were blacklisted in the first place because they DESERVED to be blacklisted. A little payola to one of their big affiliates doesn't change the reason it happened.
The question that must be asked is this: Is the blacklist there to serve and inform visitors to BW about potentially deadbeat sites? Or is it there merely as a negotiating tool? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: jek187 at February 1, 2006, 9:41 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: ed209 wrote:
I think you're confusing Bonus Whores (an affiliate site) with a watchdog site. it is not BW's intention to police online poker companies for the industry at large. it is to make money, and to keep their own customers happy in a manner which is strictly the management's prerogative. that's it.
True, but is BW just about getting referrals, or are they more interested in the best interests players in general?
Bet365 earned that spot on the blacklist. Removing them from it is a form of pandering, and I'm not sure it's a responsible solution. If you're going to do this sort of thing, get rid of the blacklist all together. If you let poker rooms BUY their way off the list, the list is worthless anyway.
BW is all about the best interests of our players. If we were all about just getting referrals then Bet365 would be back and listed on our site.
You suggest an alternative way for us to take care of our players that leaves Bet3... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ed209 at February 1, 2006, 9:38 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: True, but is BW just about getting referrals, or are they more interested in the best interests players in general?
Bet365 earned that spot on the blacklist. Removing them from it is a form of pandering, and I'm not sure it's a responsible solution. If you're going to do this sort of thing, get rid of the blacklist all together. If you let poker rooms BUY their way off the list, the list is worthless anyway.
what's "worth" to you exactly? by appearing on the blacklist, bet365 was motivated to cough up a few hundred (or possibly a few thousand) of owed bonuses to BW accounts. if joyland wakes up one day and decides to pay off their balances, I'm sure jek would take that into consideration as well.
companies buy advertising, and companies will also pay to get rid of "anti"-advertising. both situations are +EV and if you don't understand that, then you yourself mock the concept of this site in the first place. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: DrStrange at February 1, 2006, 7:38 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | I think most folks who got their bonus paid off by bet356 so bet365 could get off the blacklist think they got value from the black list. It is about the only club we whores and our pimps have vs the poker room.
It all seems reasonable to me - - bet365 stiffs a bunch of us; BW blacklists them after unsatisfactory negotiations; bet365 management feels the heat and they paid off claims as they should have in the first place, if and only if BW takes them off the blacklist. I ceratinly would rather have my $50 rather than have nothing and bet365 on the blacklist.
DrStrange | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at February 1, 2006, 12:44 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | ed209 wrote:
I think you're confusing Bonus Whores (an affiliate site) with a watchdog site. it is not BW's intention to police online poker companies for the industry at large. it is to make money, and to keep their own customers happy in a manner which is strictly the management's prerogative. that's it.
True, but is BW just about getting referrals, or are they more interested in the best interests players in general?
Bet365 earned that spot on the blacklist. Removing them from it is a form of pandering, and I'm not sure it's a responsible solution. If you're going to do this sort of thing, get rid of the blacklist all together. If you let poker rooms BUY their way off the list, the list is worthless anyway. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Mimick at January 28, 2006, 11:21 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | In my opinion, regardless of wheter they get blacklisted again or not, I think the point has been made. And that is that Bet365 can no longer be trusted as far as bonus payments go.
I was going to do the January bonus around the 2nd week of the month and thank god I waited that long. After seeing how many people were not receiving the bonus I decided to skip Bet365. I don't plan on ever going back to this site. There are just too many poker rooms out there begging for our patronage.
I'm sure they have lost a huge chunk of their customers because of this site as well as other poker forums that served as outlets for people to complain and make the rest of us aware of the situation. And of course they deserve to lose customers and credibility.
Personally, I am truly greatful for this site and the other forums I read for giving everyone a heads-up. Keep up the great work! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: nafanny29 at January 28, 2006, 2:15 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | jek187 wrote: Taking them off the blacklist was the only way to get them to pay our players. Are you saying you'd prefer I'd have told the players "sorry guys, we could have gotten you your money, but we don't want to remove a site from the blacklist that is now righting the wrong that got them there"? Or perhaps you're implying that we should just not hold up on our part of the deal and blacklist them anyways?
Now the players have been paid blacklist em again so they know how it feels to be shafted.
_________________
chance favours the prepared mind | | Static Link |
| Posted by: ed209 at January 27, 2006, 6:34 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: A poker room is basically admitting that they tried to screw your players over (and WILL screw other players over that don't belong to you), but trying to pander to you by saying "Hey, we'll take care of you if you abandon your integrity and look the other way as we screw everyone else." They've all but admitted that this is a buy-off - they're going to give bonuses to a (comparativly) small number of people who happen to be affiliated with you. It's essentially a bribe.
I think you're confusing Bonus Whores (an affiliate site) with a watchdog site. it is not BW's intention to police online poker companies for the industry at large. it is to make money, and to keep their own customers happy in a manner which is strictly the management's prerogative. that's it. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Alphaunit1 at January 27, 2006, 6:28 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | Sometimes the black/white solution isn't the best one. The black/white solution is to say "fix this, but regardless you're on our blacklist for good". There is no incentive for the poker room to fix anything, and they rarely will.
The world is painted in shades of grey. This was a reasonable solution to help BW members get the bonus money they deserved. I deal/moderate on another website that facilitates trading items between members -- sometimes those deals don't work out. The trader who isn't coming through on their end then gets a report put on their account for everyone to see - we then have to help work out a reasonable solution that will allow them to get that report taken down. Sure, it would be nice if the report stayed for all time as a warning to others, but that isn't really practical as it eliminates any incentive for the trader to fix their problem. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at January 27, 2006, 6:13 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | jek187 wrote:
Taking them off the blacklist was the only way to get them to pay our players. Are you saying you'd prefer I'd have told the players "sorry guys, we could have gotten you your money, but we don't want to remove a site from the blacklist that is now righting the wrong that got them there"? Or perhaps you're implying that we should just not hold up on our part of the deal and blacklist them anyways?
I'm not sure. But I don't think it's right to take them off when they deserve to be on it. I didn't get screwed, so I'm more or less impartial here.
A poker room is basically admitting that they tried to screw your players over (and WILL screw other players over that don't belong to you), but trying to pander to you by saying "Hey, we'll take care of you if you abandon your integrity and look the other way as we screw everyone else." They've all but admitted that this is a buy-off - they're going to give bonuses to a (comparativly) small number o... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: TylerSalzman at January 27, 2006, 12:03 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | jek187 wrote: mgbfan wrote: No offense, but this doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that BW has its players best interests at heart. The way they handled things, it shouldn't be as easy to get off the blacklist as saying "oops, we didn't realize that our underhanded tactics would have consequences ... here, let me put a band-aid on that gunshot wound for you. See, all better!"
Hi mgbfan,
Taking them off the blacklist was the only way to get them to pay our players. Are you saying you'd prefer I'd have told the players "sorry guys, we could have gotten you your money, but we don't want to remove a site from the blacklist that is now righting the wrong that got them there"? Or perhaps you're implying that we should just not hold up on our part of the deal and blacklist them anyways?
Jek Basically used the only Bargaining chip we had, which was the blacklist to get us our money. We never would have seen a dime without his tactics! U... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Wolfman at January 26, 2006, 11:38 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | I played several of the bonuses at 365 but decided to pass on this month's. I'm very proud of the way BW handled everything and I feel like they'll be at my back if I have trouble in the future with another site they've linked to. That doesn't mean they'll always be able to make everything 100% right but at least they'll be there fighting for me.
I just won't be playing at 365 anymore.
Thanks for the good work guys! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: IceboxCharlie at January 26, 2006, 5:27 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | I think after this thread and others about Bet365 nothing more is needed from BonusWhores. They did what they could to help solve the problem and my hats off to them for that.
You have a choice whether to play there after this or not and it's entirely your choice.
_________________
Just for the record jumping my ass is -EV and the WR is a quadzillion and the HA is 99.9% | | Static Link |
| Posted by: jek187 at January 26, 2006, 4:48 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | mgbfan wrote: No offense, but this doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that BW has its players best interests at heart. The way they handled things, it shouldn't be as easy to get off the blacklist as saying "oops, we didn't realize that our underhanded tactics would have consequences ... here, let me put a band-aid on that gunshot wound for you. See, all better!"
Hi mgbfan,
Taking them off the blacklist was the only way to get them to pay our players. Are you saying you'd prefer I'd have told the players "sorry guys, we could have gotten you your money, but we don't want to remove a site from the blacklist that is now righting the wrong that got them there"? Or perhaps you're implying that we should just not hold up on our part of the deal and blacklist them anyways? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: mgbfan at January 26, 2006, 4:37 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | | No offense, but this doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that BW has its players best interests at heart. The way they handled things, it shouldn't be as easy to get off the blacklist as saying "oops, we didn't realize that our underhanded tactics would have consequences ... here, let me put a band-aid on that gunshot wound for you. See, all better!" | | Static Link |
| Posted by: some random dude at January 26, 2006, 4:33 pm | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | jek187 wrote: TylerSalzman wrote: I still think they should be blacklisted for everyone having to go through this load of bull...
We agreed that if they paid the players I brought to them, that they'd be removed from the blacklist, and they've done that. However, barring something unforseen, they won't be appearing again on BW.
Although i wasnt affected thats great work for the people who signed up via BW.
I still must say this shows very much that they cant be trusted as it seems they did not pay the bonus because they realized that they should pay something that they promised to people who did not violate their T&C, but rather payed it in order to avoid being blacklisted.
I applaud you for getting the money for the people who signed up through BW but it should be noted that they basically are crooks. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: jek187 at January 25, 2006, 12:22 am | | Topic: Why is Bet 365 no longer Blacklisted? Forum: Bonus Whores | TylerSalzman wrote: I still think they should be blacklisted for everyone having to go through this load of bull...
We agreed that if they paid the players I brought to them, that they'd be removed from the blacklist, and they've done that. However, barring something unforseen, they won't be appearing again on BW. | | Static Link |
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