| Posted by: joeyl at September 17, 2006, 10:00 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Well I am not so clued up on the subject matter of game fairness and erification of such.
I bow to the superior knowledge of others. The likes of Ecogra supporters/conference panelist Ted Loh agree PWC have to be taken on trust because of their worldwide reputation, no need for proof.
I don't really trust anything without proof. I would like for the likes of GM to prove why the erification system is incomplete and what needs to be done to prove the game is truly random.
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| Posted by: caruso at September 17, 2006, 9:46 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by joeyl
It was you GM who enlightened me slightly to the fact that payout percentage erification is not proof the game is fair.
eCOGRA don't claim to just "verify payouts" ia PWC. They claim to erify the software fairness ia the TGTR process.
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| Posted by: joeyl at September 17, 2006, 7:34 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
As you can see by my minoroty status re what is or is'nt a good survey GM, I probably would'nt be ery good at it.
One of my problems with ecogra is the assurance the games are fair based upon the tgtr erification of transactions and payout percentages. It was you GM who enlightened me slightly to the fact that payout percentage erification is not proof the game is fair.
I tried to pick your brains about it, but you never bit.
I guess you would be a good person to scientifically survey Ecogra GM. I doubt I would know what to ask. I would support you in such a enture. If the outcome was promising for Ecogra, I might be swayed to back the firm fwiw.
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| Posted by: joeyl at September 16, 2006, 1:30 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
The last 3 are on the payroll.
Catania has the contacts at Khanawakhee & Antigua licensing jurisdictions. He helped write their rules. If he were to use those contacts to help the player i'd be happier.
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| Posted by: caruso at September 16, 2006, 12:57 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by joeyl
This Ecogra thing must stand for a £million in running costs by now. I see about 5 people support it.
Need more than five?
Bryan Bailey
Brian Cullingworth
Michael Hirst
Frank Catania
Bill Galston
That's five gold-plated supporters for the spin machine.
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| Posted by: joeyl at September 16, 2006, 12:55 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
This Ecogra thing must stand for a £million in running costs by now. I see about 5 people support it.
Maybe Ecogra can actually do an Ecogra survey after 4-5 years of operation, rather than possibly slide it into a general e-gambling survey.
A public survey(ish) of Ecogra does get ugly I suppose, especially when the spin doctors get involved, even they usually run for safer ground asap though.
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| Posted by: derelict at September 11, 2006, 8:17 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Not that self promotion is necessarily bad, but as noted on the Casinomeister's forum, many of the questions serve to promote the eCOGRA brand. Here are the questions directly involving the organization:
Quote:
63. Prior to seeing this survey, had you ever heard of eCOGRA?
65. Have you ever come across the eCOGRA 'Play It Safe' seal?
66. eCOGRA is an organisation that is responsible for... (please choose all the answers you think apply)
looking after the interests of the gaming industry
protecting players
dealing with player disputes
increasing profits for the gaming industry
ensuring operators act responsibly
regulating the industry
69. Aside from the website's own customer support, have you turned to any of the following when trying to have a dispute resolved?
Industry watchdog, e.g. Casinomeister
eCOGRA
Trade body e.g. IGC, RGA
Licensing jurisdiction
Other (please specify)
70. Whic... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GrandMaster at September 10, 2006, 12:27 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Am I the only one who has doubts about the alidity of any conclusions drawn from this survey? The people taking part are hardly representative of all online gamblers, people can fill in the survey several times, and there is no way to erify the answers. Of course, the last one also applies to many other surveys. The survey does not seem to have been designed by someone familiar with online gambling, for example the question about average monthly win or loss does not explain whether bonuses and comp points are to be included or not. I also have a somewhat sceptical attitude to statistics in the social sciences.
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| Posted by: caruso at September 7, 2006, 4:28 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
I am lukewarm on spyware and spam, and while I agree that eCOGRA's claim that the games at eCOGRA casinos are "proven fair" is false and misleading, it's not my number one priority since I believe most games are fair anyway.
However:
Quote: Originally Posted by ian_go
For the average online casino gambler eCOGRA is a positive thing.
Since the inception of eCOGRA, Microgaming casinos have got steadily worse. Time was, playing at Microgaming was a rock solid prospect. But things have started to fall apart. It may be coincidence, but it also may not be too far wide of the mark to conclude that with eCOGRA whitewashing their backs, Miocrogaming casinos feel the can behave with impunity.
* Jackpot Factory ran an atrocious marketing campaign for fully a year. Galston, Catania and Hirst absolved them and welcomed them back into the creme de la creme of eCOGRA membership. Their findings were dismissed as laughable by everyone who commented (... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ian_go at September 5, 2006, 10:43 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Yeah I agree Joey. As long as we see the survey for what it is it cant really hurt. For the average online casino gambler eCOGRA is a positive thing. Then again, the average person does not regularly isit a forum or MB, let alone know of the questions surrounding eCOGRA and some of its founders/members.
Quote: Originally Posted by joeyl
I don't mind the survey. It cannot hurt.
The same questions still remain, whatever anyone says, whoever they represent. This has bothered the "my reputation should guarantee my place in the first team, or I want to leave the club" crew. Tough.
# Bonus abuse defined.
Ruled twice against alleged bonus abuser, changed 1 decision.
# Spyware.
No public comment.
# Spam.
Unsure really what is happening. Do not cover affs, hence get's a bye re ery important issue.
# Fair Games.
Ecogra do not test the tgtr outcome, cannot, therefore cannot as a third party, assure anyone the tgtr outc... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: joeyl at September 5, 2006, 7:47 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
I don't mind the survey. It cannot hurt.
The same questions still remain, whatever anyone says, whoever they represent. This has bothered the "my reputation should guarantee my place in the first team, or I want to leave the club" crew. Tough.
# Bonus abuse defined.
Ruled twice against alleged bonus abuser, changed 1 decision.
# Spyware.
No public comment.
# Spam.
Unsure really what is happening. Do not cover affs, hence get's a bye re ery important issue.
# Fair Games.
Ecogra do not test the tgtr outcome, cannot, therefore cannot as a third party, assure anyone the tgtr outcome is right or wrong, ie the games are fair.
All ery basic stuff.
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| Posted by: Casey Enos at September 5, 2006, 7:02 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso
It's just a marketing exercise, Guru, as with all things eCOGRA.
That is exactly what it is. Some of those questions were so loaded I was ducking for fear of being shot.
You can undoubtedly expect a forthcoming report by NTU + eCOGRA boasting how important eCOGRA is to the industry.
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| Posted by: caruso at September 5, 2006, 5:22 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
It's just a marketing exercise, Guru, as with all things eCOGRA. LOL, when you click "finish" you get redirected to the eCOGRA site.
Anyway, I took the opportunity to point out again that once an ostensibly "regulatory" body starts finding for casinos on the basis of "bonus abuse" the whole enterprise is pretty much laid bare. Not that any of us don't already know that.
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| Posted by: theguru at September 5, 2006, 5:20 am | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
If they need a survey to know what players want then they have been living in a cave for the last 5 years. I can tell you what players needs and concerns are without a survey which is just a publicity grab:
1) Fair Games
2) Assurance that they are not doing anything illegal
3) Assurance that there personnal information will stay just that and not be released to government or 3rd party companies
4) Fast Payouts
5) A real regulatory body that has legal authority to resolve disputes
6) Good incentives/bonuses/comps
7) Pleasing to the eye, smooth and bug free software
There you have it, if the results are much different then that I will be surprised. You can now stop the survey eCOGRA.
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| Posted by: Jetset at September 4, 2006, 11:03 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
I'm pleased to see that you have posted the eCOGRA appeal here in the forum, Max.
That gives your members both the information and the right to make their own decisions about participating in the survey, which imo is being conducted by competent and independent professionals and will therefore have alue.
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| Posted by: caruso at September 4, 2006, 3:47 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by max
FYI, we won't be sending the aforementioned email to our membership.
But can we look forward to...
Quote:
A survey logo for display on your websites, or to be used as a
pop-up, to be linked to the survey;
...?
A nice lil' pop up saying "eCOGRA survey! Click here!" every time I check WOL?
(Yup, rhetorical question. )
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| Posted by: max at September 4, 2006, 1:27 pm | | Topic: Letter from eCOGRA: Survey Forum: Winner Online |
Dear Max,
eCOGRA would appreciate your assistance with an important project.
You may well be familiar with eCOGRA's plans to conduct the largest online
gambling survey ever commissioned among the poker and casino playing
communities. Since we announced our intentions a few months ago, we have
received a massive amount of interest from both the media and players alike
and we are now getting ready for the survey to go live on the 5th September.
The survey - a joint enture between eCOGRA, University of Nevada and
Nottingham Trent University, aims to capture the responses of 20,000 players
from around the world. In addition, the findings will be supplemented with
qualitative focus groups, due to be held within six of the industry's major
markets.
Designed to capture information about the behaviour and attitudes of online
gamblers, the survey results are expected to provide us and you, with an
invaluable understandin... | | Read Entire Entry |
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