| Posted by: The Original Mary at November 10, 2000, 10:33 pm | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
Let us not forget the remarkable irony of an online fraud reporting site failing to report on itself. Seriously, Pinnace, I strtongly suggest that you set an example of transparency for the industry and make explicit the connections between all your sites.
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| Posted by: CasinoNow at November 10, 2000, 4:41 pm | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
I also see this as a concern, especially since it seems to be the normal way of doing business for Pinnace. I remember when they first launched Bettors Review and came in here making posts that bordered heavily on misrepresenting themselves. Some people may say it's not that big of a deal because seasoned players can represent those types of posts as spam, but the fact is that they are dishonest in how that represent themselves and their sites, and it really does not give me any confidence in trusting their casinos with my money.
Jerry Garner
CasinoNow Gaming Resource Center
http://www.casinonow.net
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
It concerns me also that the Online Fraud site is a Pinnace site and this is not stated openly. I encourage Pinnace to be more upfront about that aspect of it. Ditto Bettorsworld.
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| Posted by: CasinoNow at November 10, 2000, 4:37 pm | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
Yes, I think that 8% of transactions sounds much higher than the typical average. I deal with alot of different transaction processing companies on a regular basis. I have found the average for online transactions is usually 4%. For online casinos the average is a little higher, usually 4 to 4.5% for larger operations, and up to around 6% for small operations that do not bring in high olumes of business.
I'm not sure how the PINs for Cryptologic could affect charge backs either (BTW, their ersion 4.0 software has alot of grat features, such as VOI for customer support). In fact, it seems to me that there is ery little that can be done by anyone other than having a ery resourceful negative card database. Casinos that use smaller, less popular transaction processing companies will typically have a much smaller negative card listing, which does open them up to a higher olume of charge backs, but I see little protective measures in place other than this.
Jerry Garner
CasinoNow Gaming R... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Freddy at November 10, 2000, 2:36 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
Now, chiluns! These terms are well understood by land lubber PBs, but I guess maybe cyber joints can make up their own definitions.
The "drop" is what goes into the "drop box." It is literally what a table or machine scarfs up in cash from the player BEFORE he redeems his chips at the cashier. So the "drop" is a ery different thing for blackjack as opposed to a slot machine.
The "hold" is the percentage of a player's buy in that the casino expects to keep. It, too, is an imprecise term, but it's all the pit critters are expected to track, cause "action" aries so greatly from day to day, and gambler to gambler.
Often, you will see "hold" expressed as an hourly figure, as in "the hold at roulette is 20% per hour." Other times, you will see "hold" quoted per *customer* - and the most common figure I've seen for that is 40%. Guy walks into a casino with 40 bucks in his wallet, he can expect to walk out... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at November 9, 2000, 10:31 pm | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
I'm not going to get drawn into too deep a discussion on this because it is sensitive business information that I do not necessarily wish to disclose to the competition but I would say that a 25 percent chargeback rate is high - it doesn't say much for the anti-fraud measures in place.
And as I have said before the percentage difference between wagers and payouts is in the low single digit area - casinos rely on olume over time to prosper. As far as I know the PWC audits of payout percentages are based on an audit of the transactions logs over the month. And they do audit the RNG, Microgaming asserts and I believe them.
Online casinos also have hefty staff (support, admin and technical) wage bills to meet and ongoing investment in the enterprize such as new equipment, upgraded software, communications facilities, anti-fraud measures, bank and processing charges, rental and of course the biggies - royalties and marketing.
So you don't simply kick the tyre and light the fire wh... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at November 9, 2000, 8:56 pm | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
I don't quite understand where the $35,000 in payouts comes from either, unless it's experience. Yes, the Price Waterhouse and other audits show a nice low hold percentage, but gamblers rarely play their bankroll through once. You can think of that 3% becoming 6% then 9% then 12%...bingo players approach 90% (of course, bingo has a high hold to start with.)
The 8% cut out of deposits up front from credit card processors is outrageous, especially after reading so many accounts of processing screwups on this board. Plus their fraud protections must be pretty bad if there's a 25% rate of chargebacks.
I remember reading that Cryptologic has only a 3% rate of chargebacks, which is comparable to the Vegas land casino rate of 4% defaults on markers. Cryptologic, as we all will recall, sends out a PIN by snail mail. I don't see how that changes a chargeback percentage (as opposed to out and out account theft), but they sure have nice numbers.
Other than asking for player patience, I d... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at November 9, 2000, 10:08 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
There's some confusion about the term "hold". Hold is the percentage per wager. Drop is the percentage per individual player's bankroll. Sure, you can have a game with a 1% hold that still has a 40% drop because the player keeps cycling through their bankroll.
Hold is a useful number for analyzing fairness. Drop is a more useful number for analyzing business. Average per player drop is the number the player is worth to the house. It has been reported that cybercasinos have a higher drop percentage than do land casinos; bingo has a much higher drop percentage than any other wagering game.
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| Posted by: The GameMaster at November 9, 2000, 9:16 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
While it's true what the author says about a chargeback not happening in Vegas, he needs to remember that in a brick-and-mortar casino, a player will, 99% of the time, use cash. The Internet casinos choose to accept credit cards as a convenience for themselves and until they come up with a better solution, they'll have to sleep in the bed they've made for themselves.
Regarding the "hold" for an Internet casino, I've no doubt that it's similar, if not larger, than its brick-and-mortar counterpart, yet cyber-casinos don't have to pay comps or slot club cash rebates, little things like dealers, etc. If the profit margin for an Internet casino isn't larger than that of a brick-and-mortar casino, it's because the management team doesn't know what they're doing.
If one Internet casino out there wants most of the business, all it has to do is: A) get their games certified as truly random by a credible third party, B) develop a debit-type card which has the players' funds held in esc... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: CasinoNow at November 9, 2000, 8:00 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
The average take of land based casinos is 40%? What research has been provided to back this up? I have been to many, many casinos, which usually openly publish their monthly payouts per Gaming Commission guidelines, and I have yet to see one that is holding 40% of the money. It seems to me that the over-all average is 3-5%, but this will ary greatly from game to game, and even ary somewhat within games from one month to the next, but the overall average usually stays about the same.
Anyone have any comments on this area?
Jerry Garner
CasinoNow Gaming Resource Center
http://www.casinonow.net
Quote: Originally Posted by Freddy:
You've got to be kidding me! They're claiming they pay back an average of $35,000 on $36,000 in deposits?? Lessee ... that comes to LESS THAN A 3% HOLD!?!?
Gimme a break. The hold on land based casinos is known to average around 40%. There's good reason to believe it's higher - maybe MUCH higher - in cyberspace.
This is th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Playtherush at November 9, 2000, 7:19 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
Jetset, aren't you and Freddy talking about different things? Seems like he is talking withdrawals - deposits while you may be talking about won wagers - lost wagers. By playing their deposits many times over, the hold become a lot higher than the inherent casino advantage on the arious games.
I believe the typical land based hold % are 15-20%.
Playtherush
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| Posted by: Jetset at November 9, 2000, 3:09 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
You might want to rethink your comments above, Freddy if you take a look at the regularly published Price Waterhouse Coopers list of percentage payouts from (mainly Boss and MGS ) casinos prepared to be audited and published on this statistic.
The difference between wagers and payouts is in the low one digit numbers.
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| Posted by: Freddy at November 9, 2000, 12:45 am | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
You've got to be kidding me! They're claiming they pay back an average of $35,000 on $36,000 in deposits?? Lessee ... that comes to LESS THAN A 3% HOLD!?!?
Gimme a break. The hold on land based casinos is known to average around 40%. There's good reason to believe it's higher - maybe MUCH higher - in cyberspace.
This is the only way I could twist any sense into the numbers they lay out ($10,150 in the hole). The 25% bonus is accounted for up front - you can't debit that twice.
I agree that many e-casinos are probably losing money (scrambling to get market share), and that charge backs are unfair to the industry. But don't believe the 3% hold, man. BOGUS! BOGUS! BOGUS! BOGUS! BOGUS!
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| Posted by: Jetset at November 8, 2000, 11:33 pm | | Topic: Chargeback article on front page... Forum: Winner Online |
Ah Kyla - and right underneath it is a topical article on software provider attitudes toward player complaints which has been such a cause for discussion on the internet recently - what about that?
That should give you the attitude of all the major providers - with a few notable exceptions....
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