| Posted by: Jetset at March 22, 2001, 9:43 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
Was that not because for the first time (as far as I know anyway) the expose featured apparently confirming comments from a UG re-seller (Shawn Egide of Orbis)? UG effectively blamed him for responding inaccurately regarding their software.
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| Posted by: Offshore Odds at March 21, 2001, 11:35 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I've played blackjack at UG sites many times and have always ended up within the proper probabilities, but when dealing with a game with such low casino advantage played with perfect strategy it would take hundreds of thousands of hands to accurately test the probability.
I'm sure the idea of creating a pool of numbers has come up before I think it would fail due to the practice of only submitting numbers of losing sessions. Everytime you play blackjack you should either check the probability yourself or go to the " Blackjack probability test. That should help you determine if the casino is close to suspicious.
Scott
------------------
Scott
OffshoreOdds.com
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| Posted by: Jetset at March 21, 2001, 9:39 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
The Prescription has an article up on this UG issue which includes the Mark/Shawn exchange. Possibly in response to that I see that UG have reacted on another thread here implying that Shawn could have been more accurate in his description of the product.
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| Posted by: Dave R at March 21, 2001, 5:01 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
DonGambler, I disagree with you that a software provider will be ruined forever because they cheat. Take, for instance,
IGlobalMedia. The consensus is that they run one of the biggest scams on the internet. Can I prove this? Absolutely not. But I have enough hard evidence to make a theory about this. The results of thousands of hands of gameplay were off by 4 standard deviations.
This means the chance of getting a fair game there is nill. Of course that nil chance is still a realistic possibility. Perhaps myself and others were unlucky to the extreme. So although its unlikely to the EXTREME that the game is fair, its still within the realm of possibility.
Even IF IGlobalmedia is a complete scam, they are doing good business. In fact I know one portal owner who claims to be making fantastic commissions from the many players who were suckered onto these websites. Also, IGlobalmedia was at the ICE convention in London, trying to sign up new licensees. The word around town is that thier pro... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at March 21, 2001, 2:29 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
ATone.. those that seem to profit from on-line casinos are the same as those that profit from land-based casinos. They are ery knowledgable about gambling, saavy and disciplined. There are many such people who post on this board. Most have many years of gambling experience such as myself.
I think the on-line casinos, just like the land based casinos, know they don't have to cheat to win. If they did cheat, word would eventually get out and they would be ruined forever. For the reasons I mentioned above on-line casinos know there is more money to be made by having honest games, just like land based casinos. Any of the major software providers know it would be suicide for them to even think about providing rigged games. As I said there is much more money to be made in the long run by having randon, fairly dealt games using an RNG.
Hell, even GSS, who ripped off everyone they came into contact with, didn't have rigged games that we know of. And we know alot about them.
[This me... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ATone at March 21, 2001, 1:42 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
DONGAMBLER,
First of all, my being a student has nothing to do with anything. You have no clue if I'm in high school, college, post-grad or just lying. I guess I could assume that you are unemployed since you list no occupation in your profile. Secondly, my statements are made mostly on common sense, although I have been gambling online and on-land for about seven years. I guess I shouldn't say that you have to be stupid to play, just stupid to trust any animated game. Since you appear to have trust and success with such games, could you tell me where they get their reliability. And the fact that you are up money with them doesn't make them any more legit because allowing some to profit would be necessary, so that people like you can spread the word that online casinos are trustworthy. But is there an independent body that governs these casinos to make sure that they are not behaving fraudulently?? I don't think so. Remember if you have profitted from an online casino, you are the exception and ther... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: kengam at March 21, 2001, 1:37 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
If I was to write software that cheats I wouldn't change the randomness of the cards. I would merely replace the random card with another until the desired card is randomly generated. This could be done with a simple subroutine. However, if this was possible with UG software's backend I would think more solid proof would have been discovered by now. Too many people would have to keep the secret safely away from the players and more importantly the message boards. There are too many disgruntled employees and casino owners out there who would love to expose a fraudulent software manufacturer.
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| Posted by: Sirius at March 21, 2001, 1:17 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I've played enough at Microgaming, BossMedia and Cryptologic casinos to know that they seem fair enough in blackjack at least. The problem is that you can't be entirely sure. but to cheat they'd usually have to have a routine in the software to do this. If the RNG isn't inside the software, it's also important to know how the server works in sending the RNG because the RNG should be totally independent of the information sent by the casino software to the casino server. Otherwise it's possible to make it favour certain outcomes.
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| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at March 21, 2001, 12:07 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
Dali, No offense meant. I enjoy your posts.
I just was wondering how someone(ATone), who lists their occupation as a student, could come on here and boldly state that you have to be stupid to play an on-line casino, etc,etc.
I am waiting for ATone to tell us how he came to this conclusion.
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| Posted by: DaiLun at March 21, 2001, 11:41 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
DONGAMBLER,
I don't have an axe to grind either way other than getting at the truth. I am happy that you are winning and happy with UG. I'm sure that the people who are losing at MG BJ might be skeptical at my success with MG BJ. I was skeptical about MG BJ until a recent streak I encountered which led me to "believe" that I at least had a fighting chance.
Even the hint at such an impropriety would cause me to take a "wait and see" attitude. I do not play at any UG casinos and do not Plan to in the near (or distant) future, this controversy notwithstanding.
I'm sure that wind of this thread has gotten back to UG. A simple statement by them would put this matter to rest. Of course, I would not expect them to publish anything other than "our games are fair, etc. etc."
The implications are enormous.
This time I CAN handle the truth.
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| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at March 21, 2001, 11:29 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
Thank you for your opinion ATone. I am sure it is based on your thorough knowledge and experience from years of gambling, both on-line and land based. I see your a student. So how long have you been gambling? Tell us how your so sure about all this.
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| Posted by: ATone at March 21, 2001, 10:51 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
How could you say that the conversation proves nothing?? The "pitboss" behind your casino has total control over your wins and losses, and not your skill or the cards. I don't know how anyone could be stupdid enough to play an animated casino game for real money. I'm sure someone is gonna say, "You're wrong, I'm up 5k!" but that is not the norm and you will even out if you keep up at it. Plus, why do you think that every casino offers to give away free chips....uh that's because they control all the ariables in the game.
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| Posted by: DaiLun at March 21, 2001, 10:48 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I agreee that the statement "Our system allows for a template in which you, as the casino owner, can determine the odds and winning percentages." is kind of ague.
It could be interpreted as saying that the template allows for a certain rules set to be used (i.e. European hole card, not split after double), which typically yields a payback %age of xxx.
It also could imply that you can "dial in" the % payback that you want.
Once again, discussions like this are giving me more and more reason to quit while I'm "less behind".
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| Posted by: rainmaker at March 21, 2001, 10:15 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
If you check out www.thewizardofodds.com you'll see that the house edge in black jack can be changed simply by changing the rules of the game and the number of decks in a shoe. This can all be done without affecting the RNG used in the sofware.
Dont forget the house edge assumes the player plays perfect black jack. Even in those cases, the player that plays perfect BJ will lose in the long run.
BTW, there is no such thing as a true RNG. All RNG's use a "seed" to determine the sequence of numbers. Usually this is a clock seed. For that reason RNG's are crackable and all exhibit patterns no matter how subtle. Some are worse than others that's for sure.
Rain
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| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at March 21, 2001, 6:04 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
Babe,, were your results bad, or did they refuse to pay you after you won? There is a difference there. Just a week or so ago someone posted about a ery large win at a UG site, Gambler's Palace I think it was, after starting with a small stake.
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| Posted by: babe at March 21, 2001, 1:12 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
There are some UG sites that limit doubling to 9,10 or 11, other that that, I know of no difference in the rules. For the perfect basic strategy player, this is a difference of about .2%. The casino probably will make less money if they implement this rule as most players don't double properly and the more leeway you give them, the more mistakes they will make.
Very good Don that you have won at UG blackjack. I'm sure you have read the posts by many experienced gamblers about their bad results at this game. You can include me in that group.
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| Posted by: paddenm at March 21, 2001, 12:11 am | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
When I ask, "...and the system server would adjust the card generator to ensure that payout?" and the UG rep. replies, "Correct," I'm really not sure what is left to interpret...
If people on this board have made money from UG blackjack, I'm glad for them. Nevertheless, I think the meaning of the discussion I quoted is clear. The argument that he is referring to rules settings might be plausible if each UG casino had customized rules, but how many different rules settings are there for single-deck UG blackjack? Of the ~20 UG casinos I checked, they all have the exact same BJ rules, so I am left to conclude that the payout % is adjusted by some other 'means.'
All I know is I'm never touching a UG casino again...
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| Posted by: Steve K at March 20, 2001, 10:41 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
"you, as the casino owner, can
determine the odds and winning percentages. Blackjack is typically the lowest percentage gain for the casino owner, however, again its up to you as the owner what percentage you wish to choose." This quote tells me that the casino owner can determine the odds in a game of blackjack to better suit the needs of the casino, and the game can be skewed to bypass the correct mathematical odds for the games rules. Does this make sense??? In any case I certainly agree that Paddenm has interpreted the statements correctly.
[This message has been edited by Steve K (edited 03-20-2001).]
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| Posted by: Sirius at March 20, 2001, 10:16 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
Well I don't understand why people are defending UG here. I don't have much experience with UG but how many of them don't have the single deck blackjack? The UG reseller seemingly confirms that the server can adjust the card generator! Of course no-one can practically determine whether the game has the true positve return indicated by the rules because it would take many hundreds of thousands of hands unless it cheated by over 1% or something.
Quote:
Correct. In fact, the backend will allow you to see in real time the
payouts per game so you can monitor it at any point.
Shawn.
>From: Mark Xxxxxx
>To: "Shawn Egide"
>Subject: Re: Just Checking In
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 19:36:13 -0500
>
>OK. So essentially, I would choose the payout, and the system server
>would adjust the card generator to ensure that payout?
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| Posted by: kengam at March 20, 2001, 9:09 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I concur with Dongambler on this one having played over 100,000 hands of BJ at UG sites myself. I took the emails to mean the payouts can be adjusted by adjusting the rules. He specifically notes that the backend allows the payouts to be MONITORED. I wouldn't assume this to mean that it isn't random.
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| Posted by: DaiLun at March 20, 2001, 8:48 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
DONGAMBLER,
Be it far from me to presume. You have much more exp. at UG than I. I'm a MG kind of guy. However, what you have described seem to be mutually exclusive events that may or may not have any bearing.
Not that I'm a conspiracy buff, but what better "smokescreen" to cover up a pre-determined outcome than to change the rules, ostensibly to make things "more fair". Could be a case of classic misdirection.
Don't know either way. Maybe I'll spend some time at a UG site to have a look see.
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| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at March 20, 2001, 8:22 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I believe the UG games are random. Proof is the fact that they changed some of the paytables on ideo poker. They use to have full pay deuces wild. They changed it to less then full pay. If the game wasn't random, why would they have had to change it?
I have also played more hands of blackjack on-line at Unified gamings sites then anywhere else. I find no evidence of anything but complete randomness. I believe they also changed some of the rules in the single deck game at one point, and again, this points to evidence that the game is not fixed in anyway, otherwise there would have been no need to change the rules.
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| Posted by: Dirk_Dangerous at March 20, 2001, 7:42 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I agree that the correspondence is somewhat ague, but this doesn't mean that paddenm is incorrect in his assumtion.
The Emails from Shawn seem to imply that the cards can be set to "deal" in a non-random way and, therefore, effect the casino's edge.
However, his Emails could also be interpreted to mean the casino's edge is effected by rule changes only i.e., H17, Double 9,10,11 would mean a higher casino edge s. S17, Double any 2 cards.
UG is an odd software IMO. Last time I checked their website, they had no claims of the card games being random. And none of their sites make this claim. I don't know about others, but I find that troublesome.
Dirk
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| Posted by: DaiLun at March 20, 2001, 7:37 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I don't know, I read this differently. I read this as saying that the software can be programmed to payback a certain percentage. The only way to achieve this would be to provide a given output to achieve the desired result.
Very similar to what is done in a slot machine.
I look forward to a discussion on this.
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| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at March 20, 2001, 6:22 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
This conversation proves nothing. I have consistently won at Unified Gaming Blackjack. This only shows that the rules of the game can be adjusted, which is well known already as if can be adjusted for any software, to increase/decrease the overall payout percentage. It has nothing to do with the randomness of the cards being dealt.
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| Posted by: paddenm at March 20, 2001, 6:10 pm | | Topic: Hard evidence Unified Gaming BJ is unfair Forum: Winner Online |
I was getting frustrated by inexplicable losing patterns playing UG blackjack (at 5dimes.com). So I posed as a casino owner and emailed Unified
Gaming. I was referred to a reseller of UG software based in California. Here is the conversation (below). Essentially, UG allows the owner to pre-set the
payout ratio for blackjack, much like he would for a slot machine. i.e., the cards are *not* randomly dealt. Obviously, this is a atrocious (and fraudulent).
Stay away from all UG blackjack games -- and other UG games as well, for why wouldn't the dice in their craps game be fixed to produce a certain payout
rate, e.g.??
You have been warned.
Subject: Re: Just Checking In
Sent: 3/20/01 7:38 PM
Received: 3/20/01 8:59 PM
From: Shawn Egide, segide@hotmail.com
To: xxxxx@verizon.net
Correct. In fact, the backend will allow you to see in real time the
payouts per game so you can monitor it at any point.
Shawn.
>From: Mark Xxxxx... | | Read Entire Entry |
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