| Posted by: Mr. B at July 13, 2001, 7:01 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
It's difficult to send physical mail to an email address. The Post Office doesn't work that way. :-)
I for one will be patient for a few days and then try resending with a automated return receipt. (I meant to do that originally) I would imagine that PWC is being buried in claims. I made a point of giving them ery specific detailed info. The dates and charge names of the deposits, etc.
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at July 13, 2001, 5:26 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
How tacky and unprofessional.
I'll see what I can find out.
If you really want to yank their chains, send it physical mail return receipt.
Some email packages allow you to get erification that email has been delivered, I suggest you do it again with that.
The OPA has encountered the "You didn't send enough information" excuse before in other disputes, so lets not give them that ammunition.
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| Posted by: bboppnbeth at July 13, 2001, 11:04 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
Question to The Original Mary:
Did you get any kind of a guesstimate as to how long after submitting claims the claimants would have to wait to get a response to their claims and/or paid? I have been waiting for Fairplay to honor four cashouts I made on June 15th, totally $300. I submitted claim (AFTER July 06,2001) and still haven't heard a darn thing from anyone!
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| Posted by: 38Special at July 1, 2001, 12:49 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
O.K. I'll get off your case. At least for now! Kidding you now! Based on all your experience and you did state your objectivity and concern for players, I think everyone would appreciate knowing the details of the promotions I mentioned. I sincerely would like your feelings on that.
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at July 1, 2001, 10:36 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
But 400k is ery affordable. At the the risk of sounding critical and I'm not trying to be sarcastic right now, I 1000% disagree with you. Have you ever bought a franchise??? They tell you exactly what to do, when to do it, how much of your money they are going to take off the top, what you can do, can't do, what outside endors you can use and can't use, etc. etc..
Without mentioning figures, and assuming you buy the full complement of Microgaming software, it is far and away the most expensive of the lot.
$400K does not get you every game in their stable, of this I can assure you.
With regards to franchises, etc. I know exactly what goes on. Not only have I owned a franchise (not a casino) before, I also have consulted for a number of them before.
Anyhow, all this has zero to do with the issue, so I'm going to stop right here.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: 38Special at July 1, 2001, 10:08 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Go2, forgot to answer the 70+ question. I am getting that from this site. If you have it search under software provider, there was at one point and time 71 MG casinos working. I actually clicked on all 71 of them to see how many of the 71 are still open.Came up with 34 of which 2 of those appear to open,but I don't thimk they are. One has a Mother's Day promo running and one has their latest winner posted on main page dated July 2.
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| Posted by: 38Special at July 1, 2001, 9:59 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
I don't know what Crypto, Boss or any of the larger ones charge, But 400k is ery affordable. At the the risk of sounding critical and I'm not trying to be sarcastic right now, I 1000% disagree with you. Have you ever bought a franchise??? They tell you exactly what to do, when to do it, how much of your money they are going to take off the top, what you can do, can't do, what outside endors you can use and can't use, etc. etc.. The main reason most people buy a franchise type of set-up is because everything is already done and suppossedly, you just put the key in the door and go. So yes, MG carries a great deal of the responsibility in a failed unit. I didn't say 100% either, so don't go there, OK. They cannot prevent, abusive spending by the owners. MG claims to be a turn key operation, right down to to who will process your money. As for Sunnygroup, I absolutely could not agree more with you on that one. An Outstanding, grade "A" number 1 organization. Wish they had Crypto 4.01.! I also agre... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at July 1, 2001, 8:25 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Where do you see 70+?
To the best of my knowledge, there are/were a total of just over 70. This before the two major clone groups, GP and Tropika, either went elsewhere or out of business.
Microgaming adds, on average, about 8-10 casinos a year. Most are existing providers and thus are generally established and stable. Only a few new operators come online with Microgaming software each year.
I should also point out that Microgaming probably has the most expensive software on the market, which naturally deters potential operators who do not have the finances to properly operate an online casino. GP and Tropika were ery early licensees, as was Sunny Group, generally recognized as reliable and honest.
The many which have disappeared - are all GP or Tropika, plus one other group. However, they don't represent half the group by any stretch of the imagination, and their own business plans were the cause for failure - surely you don't expect Microgaming to design business pl... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: 38Special at July 1, 2001, 7:55 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
I don't profess to know much about MGS total sales and marketing. I do know sales is the only MG phone Number published and if you call it they won't give you the number for the main office. If you inquire about buying a casino they are Johnny on the Spot. Their sales info states around 400,000 to open and includes the 100k license fee. I am simply looking at the the numbers I see. MG at some point was able to sell{somehow} at least 70 plus casinos, probably more, and over half of them have gone out of business. As any kind of a licensee or franchisor, this is a disasterous fact and indicates oversaturation and many other probable mistakes in the overall business plan.
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at July 1, 2001, 6:30 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
I'm just going to respond to one part of that spiel, because I haven't digested the rest of it yet.
Quote:
Is MG's agressive sales of casinos hurting the group as a whole?
If there is one single supplier who does NOT aggressively sell, it is Microgaming. Actually, add Cryptologic to that group. These two exhibit at exactly one show every year.
Just wanted to correct that piece of information.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: 38Special at July 1, 2001, 1:16 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
I believe this service has always been available. Tracking the right person down was the chore.
_____________________________________________
After discussion with our partner in charge of the payout percentage
reviews, Hantie Bouwer, I have some additional questions, which I hope you
won't mind answering.
We would like to point out that we would require information as set out in
our previous e-mail for all the casinos using the MGS software where you
are registered and not only the ones where you have experienced
difficulties. We have to investigate all your accounts to maintain our
independence and objectivity.
In order to respond in a more timeous fashion to enquiries like yours, we
would like to know if our (Hantie Bouwer and Elmar Conradie) contact
details are unclear on the casino web sites. How dit you get the contact
details for John Wilkinson, because we would like to update such a source
to make sure that all queries a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at July 1, 2001, 12:54 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
" I have sent my Information to PWC and have their word that they will work with me on this. PWC does not need MG at the expense of their reputation. All I can do is to show them where to look in the haystack, something they would not normally look at, or even know where to look, as long as the overall payouts are in line. I think they will be objective and if they see that an unlikely pattern reoccurs. I beleive they will handle the problem."
That about sums it up - all of those who have been complaining now have an opportunity to give details of their past performance to an internationally reputable outfit with a genuine professional interest in resolving any issues. And if I'm reading 38S's post correctly this is without having to put any money up for the privelege?
That seems like a useful compromise to me.
DaveR, Wilhelm, SteveK, Dirk and other experienced gamblers who feel that something is wrong have, I presume noted that?
I have to say that in my ie... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: 38Special at July 1, 2001, 12:12 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Dirk, I agree, it is impossible for one person to play enough to gather the info that would be needed. It's like if one person tells you your drunk...Maybe... If ten people tell you your drunk, your probably drunk. Hence strength in numbers. Regardless, I have sent my Information to PWC and have their word that they will work with me on this. PWC does not need MG at the expense of their reputation. All I can do is to show them where to look in the haystack, something they would not normally look at, or even know where to look, as long as the overall payouts are in line. I think they will be objective and if they see that an unlikely pattern reoccurs. I beleive they will handle the problem.
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| Posted by: 38Special at June 30, 2001, 11:53 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Once again you seem to seek approval, rather than to seek sound solutions to a widespread concern of the players. As for your 1/2 % here and 1/2 % there, I not touchin that one! lmao I sure don't hear anyone singing praises of MG around here. Nothing but, concern over common patterns that mysteriously reoccur in MG Blackjack and lots of suspicions. By the way who said I lost money at MG?? Your comment could be misleading in the the context that I did loose some winnings unfairly, but more importantly is the time I invested for a poor return. Granted, some on purpose towards the end. So let me speak for myself, MY FRIEND! I speak openly and honestly about my experiences with this particular software. That offends you and I can't help that. I have a lot of data for one player and I am talkin about a specific set of circumstances that appear to trigger an algorythmic calculation. Once this occurs, your done. My logs would indicate that you could wait a day, a month maybe a year who knows, but when you come... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Dirk_Dangerous at June 30, 2001, 11:23 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
It is not unreasonable for Spearmaster (or anyone else for that matter) to ask for proof from those of us that doubt the fairness of Microgaming's BJ. To get upset with him for doing so is unreasonable.
In my gut, I feel there is something funny about the games, but I don't have the hard data to prove the game is unfair. I simply have suspicions about the game. And these suspicions are based on my fairly extensive experiences playing blackjack at both land based and online casinos.
So I can't blame Spearmaster for asking us to put up or shut-up. This doesn't mean I've changed my mind about the game, but I can't fault Spearmaster for taking the stand that he does on this issue. While some may say he does so because of his website, I would argue that there are many "regular" players who think "we" doubters should supply some type of proof or drop the subject.
I would love to look into the situation further, but I don't have the time or the inclination to gat... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 8:55 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
I do think there's two separate issues being argued here--how much responsibility does Microgaming have over the conduct of a licensee (running on their servers)? and How best to erify the software's fairness?
I agree. And so does Microgaming, I'm sure.
Show me any other manufacturer that would challenge you to audit its software. Never mind the cost - no other manufacturer to date has ever offered such an opportunity, and I am in little doubt that few, if any, would dare to follow Microgaming's lead.
These are actions which can be measured. Not words which carry little weight.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 8:50 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Pro-Microgaming? Yes, I'd say that was true.
The ocal group who claims that Microgaming's BJ is unfair probably represents about 1-2% of total message board posters, not including lurkers.
Message boards, in turn, represent perhaps 1-2% of total online gamblers.
I assure you - if there was a real problem, there would be a huge uproar. Tropika for instance.
Why don't you get the supposedly unbiased RGTOnline to investigate your claims and write some articles about the unfairness of Microgaming's blackjack game?
You, my friend, have little inside knowledge of the industry - do not make an effort to deal with suppliers and operators - do not make an effort to resolve player problems - have not established any relationship with anyone other than a few other disgruntled players - do not travel to conferences in order to study new developments in the industry, including regulatory bodies, software providers, third-party processors and merchants.
Especially... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at June 30, 2001, 8:49 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
"Click you back button, load up winnersonline listings for MG and count em pal. 71 listings of which only 35 are still operational"
Hey, this is interesting. Microgaming isn't publically traded, so it doesn't have to report its business progress. Mind you, losing half of their licensees may not be as bad as it sounds, since (Golden Palace + Tropika) accounts for a lot of them them and they were no loss. I'd rather see a few licensees well-run than a lot of cruddy sites.
I don't think Tropika's claims about the Microgaming rng have any merit. I wouldn't put it past the dunces at Tropika to expect an rng to exert mind control over gamblers to offset Tropika's bonus offers to get a consistent ig.
I do think there's two separate issues being argued here--how much responsibility does Microgaming have over the conduct of a licensee (running on their servers)? and How best to erify the software's fairness?
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| Posted by: 38Special at June 30, 2001, 8:21 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Since You want to make personal attacks and smart alleck comments, I am happy to play on that field with you! "Thick as a brick" comes to mind when you keep posting the PWC reviews based on data over a year old and that by their own admission and clear as bell in the report itself is the sole responsibilty of MG. Furthermore, PWC has never done a certifed audit on an MG Casino. EVER! You obviously are pro Microgaming. You diminish the numerous complaints on the subject to a few and always use the "Proof" line since you know that no "one" individual can possibly aquire the stats to 100% prove it, which is why this forum is so aluable. You do not seem to understand the alue and importance of letting an impartial outside source control the Little Black Box!
"Naive" comes to mind. If you were in the business of selling casinos and around half of your existing casinos were down or out of buisness, you'd make damn sure the ones you still had up and running were maki... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 7:06 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
38S-
PWC did exactly that, and the links were posted both in this forum and the other one.
But just because you asked, here they are again.
Blackjack report by PWC: http://www.microgaming.com/pwc_reports_bj.shtml
Roulette report by PWC: http://www.microgaming.com/pwc_reports_roulette.shtml
It's not personal at all. But I have no agenda, while a few of you seem to be bent on making claims you can't prove, have no data for, and even resort to pulling poor Elmar into.
"Monkey see, monkey do" comes to mind.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: 38Special at June 30, 2001, 2:16 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
Sorry, you are taking constructive comments so personally there Go2. This isn't about you, this about a problem that far too many people are experiencing to be accidental or just BAD LUCK. Are you hooked up with MG or something??I realize you carry them heavily on your site, but you should not be so defensive. If a problem is exposed and a deceptive server eliminated or forced to make corrections, this is good for all of us.
I can tell you this much though{per Elmar} and that is, if PWC suspects a problem, they can and will do a complete audit of the logs played and nobody has to front money for that to happen. If MG would deny PWC that access, then the questions would be answered right there. It is also naive to think that by just setting up a test on a rng is going to prove anything, is ludicrous. It's a computer and can be altered in no time to pass a test. The proof is in the past. What actually happened and DID IT DELIVER the fair play advertised at ALL times. Now, If Microgaming had a lick of ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 12:00 pm | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
In case anyone didn't realize what Dave R was referring to:
Microgaming has offered to let a third-party auditor other than PWC investigate their Blackjack game for the purposes of proving the randomness of the cards dealt.
Under the terms of this offer, a top 3 audit firm such as KPMG or Ernst & Young will be allowed to conduct this investigation.
The reason that a top 3 audit firm must conduct the investigation is to ensure the impartiality of the investigation as well as the confidentiality of Microgaming's competitive intellectual property.
The challenge is this: Whoever wishes to conduct such an investigation must first submit the name of the proposed auditing firm. And the auditor shall, if approved, be allowed to conduct said investigation and report his findings to both the entity commissioning the investigation, and Microgaming as owner of the game being investigated.
Should the auditor find that Microgaming's blackjack game is totally random... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 11:53 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
If this is so, his level best is not good enough. Auditors do not break client relationships by leaking information and breaching confidentiality.
And someone who believes something is wrong and yet keeps going back for another bite is either addicted or a fool.
The last letter is D.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
[This message has been edited by Got2Bet (edited 06-30-2001).]
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| Posted by: 38Special at June 30, 2001, 11:49 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
My Emails from Elmar have the same confidential clause at the bottom. Dave R, I completely, 100% agree with you. The man is doing his level best to deal with a ery sensative situation as well as the fact that he's got scores of us now that have and are assimilating the information needed to show that MG is not delivering a fair and totally random BJ Game.If you break confidence with him, then he will have no choice but to break off all communications with you. This is the man who cares and can get things done! Don't double cross him. For the record, I just finished up at yet another MG casino{LOT of green Colors}, one that I did not test previously, Nothing has changed. Just send them a check and go put your money at Intercasino or Prestige!
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 11:47 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
I feel a game of Hangman coming on.
15 letter word.
The first letter is U.
You have a moral right to maintain confidentiality. You also have a moral right to do what is right for the gaming public.
Being right means nothing when you do nothing with that information.
"Record" be damned. Let's hear the TRUTH.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
[This message has been edited by Got2Bet (edited 06-30-2001).]
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at June 30, 2001, 11:02 am | | Topic: Microgaming to pay *all* Tropika players, not just OPA members Forum: Winner Online |
That looks like a license to put any words into their mouths. Your moral obligation should have also "obligated" you not to say anything about the existence of such an email, if true.
Too late. I want to see the truth, and I really don't care which one of you is right or wrong.
If Mr. Conradie chooses not to respond, there are a number of other avenues which can be pursued at PwC and Microgaming.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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