| Posted by: Jetset at August 26, 2001, 10:54 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Another thought - the 'who is' gives an address ipimedia.com on this guy Jergens - what about digging up some information on that company and seeing what the possibilities are there by way of direct appeal?
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| Posted by: Jetset at August 26, 2001, 10:52 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
SBG maybe you need to widen the complaint net on these Golden Comps people - where are they licenced?
What about putting this issue on record direct with RTG (that may seem pointless now but could have future alue)
Gambling Grumbles?
Are Golden Comps members of the Interactive Gaming Council and if so have you lodged a complaint with them as well? (and before this starts an IGC flaming distraction let me say I think in cases like these you need to get your complaint out wide)
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| Posted by: Factor X at August 26, 2001, 7:49 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I applaud the OPA for now not allowing
newly approved casinos to advertise on
the OPA site or the Casino Gazette site.
They must have a proven record, as Steve
Adkins says.
This will only enhance the credibility
of the OPA .
Good decision.
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| Posted by: jondo at August 26, 2001, 10:48 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Don,
I was just curious. I have been stuck in this same situation many times. I filed complaints everywhere I could. It seems that I once filed one with Safebet and never heard anything from them, but what the heck.
SBGC,
I don't know who you are, but you obviously have been around the block. In one sense you can feel lucky that they at least gave you your money back, but the casino has stated their position and it will take some Real Strong play from you now to get them to pay up what they owe. What that would be, I don't know short of sabotaging their servers and that would only be revenge. The only times I ever had success is when I found their Banker and accused them of being involved in fraud.
Golden Comps biggest crime is they feel they are enforcing their rules, yet they admit to waiving this for mom and pop who play 5c slots. These rules are hidden so deep on their site that no one would be aware of them. If they intend to enforce these odd rules they should present them ope... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DONGAMBLER at August 26, 2001, 8:10 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Jondo.. really.. Safebet?? They are too busy collecting membership fees from Magic Oasis and looking for Casino Duck to do anything about this.
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| Posted by: Steve Adkins at August 26, 2001, 6:51 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I got an idea for you there Cindy. Since your gods gift to online gambling and holier then god himself.
WHY DONT YOU CONTACT PAUL AND GET THE FACTS.
THEN MAYBE YOU WILL KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.
LETS SEE WHAT PROOF HE OFFERS YOU. OK?
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 25, 2001, 8:03 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
We asked. They didn't supply it. We asked again. They didn't supply it.
Steve's account is not complete nor was it intended to be.
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| Posted by: vickinz at August 25, 2001, 4:54 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I see...fair enough. But wouldn't Golden Comps be eager to present any compelling evidence, even if not asked, IF they had it, as they and your organisation's members stand to lose much income otherwise?
I'm not trying to be perverse, I just can't understand why they won't help defend themselves if they have legitmate grounds to withhold payment. I found them great when I played there, so I have no axe to grind.
[This message has been edited by ickinz (edited 08-25-2001).]
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| Posted by: slycin56 at August 25, 2001, 4:05 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Whether or not Golden Comps *refused* to supply the information has been one of my questions from the beginning.
Whether or not the OPA asked for it, has been another.
I did not see either of these occurrences in any of the correspondence that was posted in Steve's article.
------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association
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| Posted by: vickinz at August 25, 2001, 3:28 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Thanks Mary, thought I had misunderstood because I can't see how OPA could have decided otherwise, in the absence of any GC evidence, and WHY anyone would question that decision. This other stuff about Steve performance/banner advertising etc. has absolutely nothing to do with this fact.
[This message has been edited by ickinz (edited 08-25-2001).]
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 25, 2001, 2:37 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
"But if GC refuses to provide evidence of time and other casino, and gets away with not paying a winner, they and other casinos can use this scenario as a reason for not paying winners again and again?"
Vicki, I bow to your brilliance. Awesome. Yep, that's a problem all right. Pretty much sums it up.
Yes, fiveroses is a sister site to Golden Comps.
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| Posted by: vickinz at August 25, 2001, 2:30 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Forgive a slow learner for missing something. But if GC refuses to provide evidence of time and other casino, and gets away with not paying a winner, they and other casinos can use this scenario as a reason for not paying winners again and again?
So what's this debate about? GC has a duty to front up with proof of winner's illegal acts if it has any, or pay what it owes.
BTW, can't see it mentioned here, but a friend has told me that Five Roses Casino, offering $125 for $100 deposit, is a metamorphasised Golden Comps, because domain name was registered at the same time as Steve let us know about all this...anyone know whether this is fact or fiction?
[This message has been edited by ickinz (edited 08-25-2001).]
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| Posted by: Steve Adkins at August 25, 2001, 2:26 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
You mean the mentality of what we have to deal with?
I thought you said you were not going to post anymore. Geezzz just keep your promise. You said that.
Bitch and complain, complaint and bitch, You know either your part of the solution or your the problem.
Its easy to stand on the sidelines and tell us how to play the game. Its called a Monday morning quarterback.
We are the team on the field. Whether you like it or not. Where are all the so called gaming commisions out there? ummmm
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 25, 2001, 2:09 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I keep thinking of new angles on this. OK. Now, one may point out that I am being too hard on the casinos, because under the current system of large bonuses what I posit cuts into the casinos' revenue too much for many to stay afloat.
To this I reply, it is the casinos' decision to offer such large bonuses in place of other incentives to compete.
What is happening is that winning players are being cheated (yes, cheated)in order to subsidize the bonus system of competition; a system that does not depend upon good business practice or reward honesty, creativity, or good service; but only rewards the operators who do a good job of *looking* honest until that "last withdrawal before lockout".
The argument that they cannot otherwise compete or stay in business without this "right of last seizure" is not an argument based on ethics, but expediency. The routine misrepresentation of an entire class of player that has broken no rules, does not cheat, but just wins ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 25, 2001, 1:45 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I agree with Babe and AS about winnings, but I wish to make clear that this is in the case of a gambler that is:
a. not cheating, i.e., manipulating the results of the game,
b.not welshing, i.e., using fraudulent monies such as credit card fraud or counterfeit
In other words, winnings fairly won should be considered the property of the player just as much as a deposit is the property of the player.
In application to the Golden Comps case, neither of these were alleged by the casino, and neither were proven by the casino. I don't even think that it was sufficiently proven that the casino's posted rules were broken such that it justified the seizure of winnings. You'll find more disccussion on the thread devoted to refunding deposits; I think this attitude is too supportive of giving a systemic advantage to casino operators that can be abused.
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| Posted by: AmateurSleuth at August 25, 2001, 1:24 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Slycin,
What you have said, clarifies for most gamblers how out of touch you are with the realities of gambling. WHEN A BET IS WON, IT IS THEN YOUR MONEY!!! No if's, and's or but's about it. If you do not acknowledge this, you have no business running a gambling portal. Period. There is no way you can EVER be an objective observer. In your scenerio, if the casino wins the bet, it's their money, and if the player wins the bet, it's only their money if the casino chooses to give it to them. Does this make sense to anyone but Slycin?
You may not be blonde, but you sure have "blonde moments"...lots of them.
As for insults, it goes both ways. When you post comments about people being this way or that way, and get offended when you get it back, it smacks of being a "whiner". A spoiled brat. The kid who always ran to the teacher telling tales, just to get attention. Looks like you have brought the habit into adulthood, and the "authority figure" still ha... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 25, 2001, 12:36 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
The seizing of winnings is a sore point with many players. As the casino did not break out the winnings by session, date, or game in their seizure and did not provide enough evidence in my judgement to justify the seizure, I think they are in the wrong in this case. I have no idea what percentage of those winnings were won before there was suspicion on the part of the casino, and it looks to me that the broken rule is not sufficiently grave to justify the seizure.
This is one of the points wherein online casinos differ substantially from land casinos. In a land casino, ownership of monies won is clearly established, and may not be seized without due process and recourse. There is also no confusion about where a player is playing!
An analogous scenario to this case in the land industry would be of Player X playing in the Golden Comps casino when an employee informs the pit boss that X's associate is playing at another casino, they are both in the Griffin book, and security takes Player ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: slycin56 at August 25, 2001, 10:58 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Babe, I am one highly intelligent non-blond, and for you to make a crack like that, again demonstrates the mentality I've been dealing with here.
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at August 25, 2001, 10:19 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Allow me to clarify one point - while I am a member of the OPA, I am NOT on the committee, even though they graciously invited me some time ago. I felt that being outside the committee would allow me to be more useful to players, casinos AND the OPA.
I am stating my opinion without any bias whatsoever.
------------------
Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: babe at August 25, 2001, 10:03 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Once you won a bet, the money is yours. If you it it taken back or you are not paid, it is stolen or you have been stiffed. So Slycin, you are saying you can play in a casino, win some money, then the casino has the right to not cash in your chips because those chips were not yours to begin with? (This is after cashing in your original buyin).
You have never seen me personally bash anybody on a message board before. But that time has come to an end. Slycin, you are one thick skulled blond.
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| Posted by: Jetset at August 25, 2001, 6:54 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
"Any further discussion here is pointless."
Amen to that. My patience is exhausted with someone so stubborn and prejudiced that they cannot see the truth staring them in the face.
I'm done with this frustratingly fruitless circular argument and SlyCin's inability to see the obvious.
[This message has been edited by Jetset (edited 08-25-2001).]
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| Posted by: slycin56 at August 25, 2001, 6:31 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Mary, this thread was started specifically for that purpose, but then got sidetracked, yet again.
And your illustrious leader took several ery rude and unprofessional potshots at several of us, in the Golden Comps thread; probably because he couldn't think of a way to answer the questions posed. That apparently wasn't enough for some of your members, which is why TedM started this thread.
There are several ery intelligent and crucial questions raised in both theses threads, mostly by people who are *not* webmasters.
Yet, rather than answer any of them in kind, and directly, several members of the OPA have chosen personal ridicule and intimidation as the appropriate response - led by Steve.
At this point, the OPA, with the exception of yourself and Spearmaster, has *mostly* shown themselves to be a pack of bullies with a mob mentality.
As an example, how many times has the 'FACT' been 'stated' that Golden Comps 'stole' $8000 from one of your executive members?... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Steve Adkins at August 25, 2001, 6:23 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I need to add something about approved casinos. Once they apply the committee otes on them.
Only approved casinos are allowed to advertise. We have changed the policy so that a casino that just opens cannot advertise on OPA or casino gazette.
Each casino must have a proven track record.
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| Posted by: Steve Adkins at August 25, 2001, 4:54 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
1. How is OPA monitoring the Players integrity?
Other than checking contact information, payment and
reputation in the industry the OPA cannot ask for police
background checks or the like. A player's complaint history
will come under scrutiny if indicated, and of course a
complaint about a player will be reviewed in the same manner
as that against a casino. There have been instances where
players have been expelled for not complying with the
Players Code, and casinos have been expelled for failure to
comply with the Casino Code.
2. What is the proof that the OPA is requesting from the
players for launching a complaint against a casino and what
are the checks that OPA does on the player?
The first move in any complaint is a courteous but
businesslike correspondence with the casino giving them full
details of the complaint and asking for their response. Many
complaints are the result of innocent errors or
misunderstandings ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at August 25, 2001, 3:19 am | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
"No, I'm speaking for myself, but on behalf of all portal webmasters."
That's a rather ambitious statement, SlyCin. But I wonder with what authority it is made and whether webmasters really feel the same antipathy toward OPA as you clearly do.
As for the rest of your posts since I was last here, well it looks as if they have been pretty much addressed by several other posters, the most interesting of which I thought was Mary's breakdown of the GC evidence.
Cyclopes those are good questions. I think I have the answers but it is IMO appropriate that the OPA committee should approve those before posting. I have deferred to them and either they or I will revert here within a reasonable period of time.
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| Posted by: cyclopes at August 24, 2001, 11:33 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
I have few questions for the OPA. Some of these questions might have been already addressed on the OPA site, if anyone can provide me the URL I would be glad to go there and read through. If not, I would like to thank the person who can provide me the answers.
1. How is OPA monitoring the Players intergrity?
2. What is the proof that the OPA is requesting from the players for launching a complaint against a casino and what are the checks that OPA does on the player?
3. Can anyone in OPA launch a complaint when they think they are being cheated by the casino? If anyone outside OPA launches a complaint (on a bulletin board or by any other means) would OPA be checking that casino just to make sure everything is alright over there? Or would OPA be waiting for one of its members to launch a complaint?
4. When a casino comes under not recommended list of OPA, is it placed in that list for ever?
5. What should a casino do to get out of that list? Its good business when you make a co... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 24, 2001, 10:57 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Did I miss some posts? I can't recall Steve or the OPA bashing any portals, so I don't understand what some of the upset is about.
Dave R, keep thinking, we need new ideas all around. This industry changes so quickly that what may have worked yesterday doesn't work today. For example, the Evila traffic rerouting wasn't a problem last month!
I have broken out several of the topics reflected in this thread for discussion by OPA members (and interested parties) over on Casinomeister's forum, as these are recurring questions & require discussion of the membership. Feedback concerning the advertising is welcome.
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| Posted by: Dave R at August 24, 2001, 9:39 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
How about a massive OPA player recruitment effort by advertsisng on all 5 United States print magaines: Chance, Double Down, Casino Player, The Gambler, and Gambling Online.
ADVERTISE THE OPA!
Your response would be so great you might be able to get another 5000+ players into your orginization. 5000 players X $25 per player
=$125,000 for the OPA. (Less the fees for advertising)
And then you can ditch all casino ads on CasinoGazette, and be completely banner free.
Its your cup of tea Steve, and therefore, your right, I should have kept my comments out of this public forum.
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| Posted by: Steve Adkins at August 24, 2001, 7:23 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Cindy, I thought you said that was your last post? Nope.
And when you talk about OPA members that are unhappy. I say bullcrap. Members do not complaint to us.
Only people that are not members like to belly ache.
You guys figure out how to pay the overhead of the OPA and Casino gazette, complete with customer support, complaint department. I will listen. Accepting ads was a last attempt. Yes, we do accept ads. So? I know people may think that is a conflict of interest. All I can tell you is let the advertiser screw up and see what happens.
When casino towers had problems. Bam they were gone.
We have trimmed the advertising. When we first offered it to our casino members we had no idea how many wanted it. So we did oversell. We have now limited how many ads we accept in any one month.
If members have a problem with me, then they should email me personally with their concerns. Most of the people complaining are not even members.
I like the par... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jondo at August 24, 2001, 5:22 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
grantt,
I am talking about signing up, promising to pay $50, saying it is in the mail and Oh by they way do a little promotion for me and then stiffing the $50. A cheap, petty swindle. I don't care if it was the OPA or your site.
Then, we think your wife played ideo poker on your account. Broke our rules. You lose!
Is this a scam outfit or not?
Then the gamble. They think the OPA will side for them in hopes of big ad $. They lose so screw off.
The big point, places like these DO NOT give a damn what is written on these forums.
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| Posted by: grantt at August 24, 2001, 4:45 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
GC is in no way shape or form obligated to deal with the OPA. The OPA is not the law, the police or the internet police. I think a few people here are putting way too much faith by thiking that the OPA actually regulate or police this industry. Dave I also think your ery smart so it's too bad you only agree with only ONE thing I said.
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| Posted by: jondo at August 24, 2001, 4:24 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
The facts are; no matter what you say or I say GC ain't paying. They scammed the OPA, thumbed their noses at the OPA. Obviously they could care less. They justify these restrictive,senseless rules that they hide so deep in their site on losses they take, Yet they stiff the OPA for $50. That in itself is enough to blacklist them. Would you trust them with your money?
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| Posted by: Dave R at August 24, 2001, 3:37 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Just for the record:
My iew has always been the OPA should
STOP ACCEPTING ADVERTISING OF ANY KIND.
This is the one and only thing Grantt and I agree on.
When Hitmob ran CasinoGazette.com, it was a BANNER FREE ZONE.
I understand the Steve needs the $$$ to pay the phone bills, legal bills, and many other bills, but in my opinion a selling advertising space, EVEN FOR A FLAT FEE,
is akin to selling your soul. Its OK for a portal to do this. Its WRONG when a non-profit consumer watchdog group does this.
I have not been ocal on this issue, out of respect for Steve. And since the advertising has always been quite limited in the past, I haven't complained. But now, everything has changed, and the ads have been stepped up.
CasinoGazzette is starting to look like a portal. I realize all the casinos listed are OPA approved, but this is still unacceptable to me.
Steve - It is hypocritical to bash the IGC for its "conflict of interest" when... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 24, 2001, 2:51 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Ordinarily, the OPA doesn't put a site on the "Not Recommended" list on the basis of one unresolved or unanswered complaint, but the conduct of casino management in this case has made it unlikely, at the moment, for any future complaints by OPA members to be resolveable.
In practical terms, the "Not Recommended" list is made up of casinos that the OPA will no longer waste time trying to mediate player problems. If you go to www.casinomeister.com and look at the posted complaints, it will give a good idea of the nature of complaints, the traffic, and how difficult it can be to get beyond canned CSR email responses or get the phone answered. You can also see that many complaints are quickly resolved; it is the complaints that are complicated or contentious that create the most interesting buzz.
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| Posted by: AmateurSleuth at August 24, 2001, 2:44 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Slycin,
As I suspected, you are still having a problem with the GC/OPA contretemps. However, we are making progress. You are no longer threatening to "take your ball and go home", just because you are taking some heat.
That's good. I sincerely hope that the GWPA will make a difference in the way players are treated at the casinos you choose to promote on your website.
From Spear:
Quote:
Come to think of it, if you are going to use Jetset, they were put on the Not Recommended list as soon as the problems with Tropika surfaced - and BTW I don't think it's fair to pin anything on Jetset, much less hint that he has some extra incentive to promote the OPA
Despite the heat he had to take on the Tropika debacle, Jetset has been here answering questions as best he could. He never ran away from the OPA, or this board. He supported the OPA ban on a casino where he had a small ownership interest. I commend him for that.
On the otherhand, there... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: grantt at August 24, 2001, 12:29 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
At least until proven otherwise. You guys can stick with places that have ulterior motives and have been shown to promote disreputable places in the past. I will stick with my solid selections.
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| Posted by: tedm at August 24, 2001, 12:13 pm | | Topic: OPA and portals Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by grantt:
[B]Zrapture any place I recommend is as solid as they come end of story.
Damn right Zrapture. If grantt says it's solid you had better belive it.
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