| Posted by: caruso at December 4, 2001, 5:44 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
PTO - your "bonus worthiness calculation" is the same as mine (and, I assume, all other reasonably au fait players) with the exception that I wouldn't apply it to a "20-for-100" deal, simply because the ariance will render the calculation irrelevant over such a (presumably) short play.
Funnily enough, this makes "attractive" even the seemingly painful deals; eg. Crazy Vegas offers 15% on all deposits with a 10 times play through. This equates to just over a 1% edge - but how many counters would turn their noses up at that?
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| Posted by: caruso at December 4, 2001, 5:32 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Joe - you're a little behind the times on the Allslots deal; the requirements now on the MAXIMUM bonus are 10 times - it goes down to three times for bonuses up to $150, $151 - (I think) $300 = five times...etc.
When did those requirements change? Barely a few hours after I attempted (and failed because of Paypal problems) to deposit $4000 to receive the top bonus; is that coincidence? Don't know....
Allslots gets my top MG recommendation, however; as fast a BJ game as they come, ery "realistic" feel, and I won to the tune of 2.5 SDs (so I suppose in THAT regard it WASN'T so realistic); the sister casino Hooks has the same deal.
Regarding the "bonus must be complete" deal, one should bear in mind that every bet placed on a BJ table carries negative expectation. Not much for MG (0.15%), admittedly, but the fact that you CAN win, you MIGHT get lucky, you MAY end up a millionaire, is irrelevant. You expect to lose. If things work out "average" you wi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: FairBet at December 4, 2001, 12:19 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by DrOakland:
Check out slots where? Who offers? I detest slots, except ideo poker of course. Actual percentage of 35%? you lost me Joe...
DrO
Ok Doc, I'll Slow it down! :-)
Check out AllSlots.com. They are a microgaming site (offering 56 games or so, not just slots) The percentage is 35% up to $1,400 free (depending on the amount you buy in for and whether or not you use PayPal.)
They have not been "sitting ducks" apparently as they've ran the offer successfully for some time now. ...thought you would enjoy a "shot" at them, thats all.
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Joe Plummer
www.fairbet.org
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| Posted by: DrOakland at December 4, 2001, 12:07 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The_CPA:
New players that are not usually aware of the potholes they are about to fall into.
Answer? Instead of a a microscopic T & C off to the side or down at the bottom. Just be painfully honest and don't try to sneek it by them. Bold letters in their face. I think this would help!
Points taken about newbies, and bold letters. How about this for a bold letter promo:
B] FEELING LUCKY? IF YOU CAN DOUBLE YOUR BANKROLL, WE'LL PAY YOU TRIPLE![/B]
Might still need to be fine print, so people couldn't just make one bet and run...
DrO
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| Posted by: Woody0 at December 3, 2001, 11:57 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Dr. O,
I believe you said you started online gaming fairly recently so I recommend getting experience on other Microgaming sites before tackling these guys. Apart from Colosseum there is Floridita Club, Grand Hotel, Royal Plaza, Old Samurai, Grand Casino Venice and Grand Opry (to be renamed Vegas Country).
I've played them collectively a total of 17 times including the deposit $100 get $25 bonus with FirePay/PayPal when available and lost twice. I think I panicked on one of those and started betting big too early when I was down somewhat.
My strategy was to play the group since the entire deposit was at risk. Also I deposited $100 for the $70 bonus, a bigger cushion for negative swings. Then I played minimum $2 bets, perhaps increasing to $4 or $6 for more ariance as I won. The ariance in the game will swing you up and down, which gets you over the top sometimes. The largest amount wagered to double the $70 bonus was $1170. On the other hand I managed to double the $25 bonus ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The_CPA at December 3, 2001, 6:46 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Doc
It's not so much that it is bad if you are able to go in with your eyes open. You learned the lessons at some point, so you know what to look for.
The problem I have is that these types of bonuses are designed to catch the eye of the first timers or ery new players. The still naive player. The sucker! I don't like casinos that sucker punch.
Many don't KNOW or even suspect that there are conditions attached to these bonuses and the casino knows this. The Newbie is of the mind set that it's what it appears to be...a gift to try the casino if he puts his money with them.
They are excited and maybe even nervous and jump right in. Maybe they play their ass off for a week, got up 1000.00, lost back down and decide it's time to go. They figure, hey I'll just withdraw my 70.00 and come back another time.
This is where they baptized. What do mean I can get my deposit? What,230.00? I was up to a 1000.00! YOU should have cashed out! I didn't realize there were so many... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DrOakland at December 3, 2001, 6:38 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by FairBet:
Dr, check out all slots. They offer a ery “high cap” bonus with a low wagering requirement. (I always try to use the best I know of as a gauge for what is possible, hence the reason I originally proposed the three + three requirement as the ideal "rule of thumb.") I do realize the actual percentage of 35% is lower…
Check out slots where? Who offers? I detest slots, except ideo poker of course. Actual percentage of 35%? you lost me Joe...
DrO
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| Posted by: FairBet at December 3, 2001, 4:45 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
....don't mind me....I'm still thinkin.
Anyone smell smoke?
Unlike waiting 10 days to get a response to an Email or having to send a strand of your DNA to open an account (something nobody wants) this one is tough.
What I think is completely unacceptable and indicative of a casino taking advantage of people, others may feel is perfectly acceptable and certainly "better than nothing."
Reducing the entire score drastically based solely on the bonus may not be as useful to the majority of users as simply rating the primary areas, and then the bonus separately....
Casino score: 3.5 stars
Bonus wagering requirements: 1 star
I don’t know…this one really is tough but something needs to be put in place to address it...I like to think we are all pretty much in agreement there...
Dr, check out all slots. They offer a ery “high cap” bonus with a low wagering requirement. (I always try to use the best I know of as a gauge for what is possi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DrOakland at December 3, 2001, 4:33 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by FairBet:
I’m also not sure whether or not there should be a penalty for excluding BlackJack from the wagering requirements. I understand why Roulette and Craps are excluded, but I am not clear on how a player could use blackjack to “unfairly” meet the requirement.
Ideas? Suggestions?
They are maybe learning that blackjack players are not profitable newbies. But interestingly, the ones that exclude Blackjack do allow Baccarat to satisfy the requirement. I confirmed that with Vegas Villa. However, to max out their 30% bonus at $300 requires that $1000 be played thru once, then the bonus played 8 times, for a total of $3400 in action. Could sure get boring playing Baccarat at $10 a hand!
DrO
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| Posted by: DrOakland at December 3, 2001, 4:24 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by FairBet:
This month, we intend to implement a standard “across the board system” for taking the cash out requirements into account. Currently we are looking at the “standard / fair” requirement to be three times deposit and bonus. I look forward to any comments regarding this (positive or negative.)
Come on, a casino that requires only three times wagering is a sitting duck. Obviously they have to protect themselves, and making players play longer isn't unreasonable at all. IMHO, any casino that offers a positive expectation bonus deal (one which can be cashed out without too much hassle) is certainly being fair. Including even the Colosseum deal - at least they show some imagination!
DrO
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| Posted by: DrOakland at December 3, 2001, 4:14 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Glad to stir up discussion on this...
I don't think Colosseum's deal is that bad. Of course, I would prefer only having to play 3 times.
You are putting up $70 for a better than 50%chance to cash out $230. With the $150 bankroll, you can simply bet $80 on the first hand, and if you win you quit. If you lose, you still have a small chance with the remaining $70.
I might bet $75 on the first hand, so I can double down if I want to. (I'd hate to have a juicy 11 s. 6 and can't double!) If I win a single, I'd be at $225 and can ery likely win a single $5 martingale series.
DrO
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| Posted by: medali at December 3, 2001, 1:32 pm | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Re: Joe's proposed penalty for bonus rules
In my opinion, any casino that restricts withdrawal of the player's own money should be given a heavy penalty, regardless of how many times you have to wager. Even if you've already signed up for the bonus and started playing, you should be able to withdraw what's left of your original deposit at any time (forfeiting the bonus, of course).
And would you really want to take off the penalty even when not collecting a bonus? Any time I've seen 'deals' that require ten times playthrough of deposit and bonus or that restrict withdrawals, the terms seem to be written with the goal of deliberately confusing people. If a casino is trying that hard to mislead, shouldn't it be given a lower overall rating?
I realize I'm being a little harsh here. Most of the casinos with ridiculous bonuses like this are probably trying to make themselves look less attractive to bonus hunters, but they seem to be doing it at the risk of creating a bad impression... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: PlayTheOdds at December 3, 2001, 11:52 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Fairbet (Joe), this is how I decide if a bonus offer is worthwhile. I assume a 98% payback ratio, and then calculate if I should expect to be ahead after the wagering requirements are fulfilled. For example, one offer might give a $20 bonus with a $100 deposit. If the casino has a 6x deposit + bonus wagering requirement, that means I would be wagering $120 x 6 = $720. With a 98% payback ratio, my expected loss would be 0.02 x $720 = $14.40. Thus, I should end the session with $120 - $14.40 = $105.60. So, I would judge this to be a marginally good offer.
In actual practice, I always plan to wager significantly more than the minimum requirement, to avoid being labeled a bonus hunter (abuser?). Also, for a skilled blackjack player, the expected payback ratio is to 99.5% or better.
Anyway, you could look at 50 current bonus offerings, do the calculations in the above manner, and then rank the casinos by the results. Bonus plans in the top 10% could be given the best ratings, etc.
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| Posted by: PlayTheOdds at December 3, 2001, 11:33 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Yep Caruso, I agree that the Colosseum approach is a losing proposition, in that a player is more likely to lose than to win. And, I agree, that the Colosseum approach is a poor approach for a new player. In fact, it is probably a poor approach for the casino as well, since most players will lose and probably not return as repeat customers.
However, I still believe that, for a "wild gambler", it can be a good bet. I suggest that you would win 4 times out of 10, and lose 6 times out of 10. But since the wins are for $150 and the losses are for $70, you would still come out ahead.
But, as a player, I would much prefer a 20% 6x bonus to any plan where you must reach a certain balance to cash out. So, we are probably in "violent agreement" on what a preferred bonus plan should be.
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| Posted by: caruso at December 3, 2001, 10:38 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
PTO - sorry, it's a diabolical proposition; CPA has the nail on the head here; your tying up your funds in a negative expectation game; you EXPECT to lose - there's no "maybe win / better chance than losing" about it. OK, the wild gambler might go for it, but it would be a mistake to equate a deal the might appeal to such a person as a generally worthwhile proposition.
Joe - don't be too hard on them; a "three times three" deal is as good as it gets, and you're likely to end up not recommending a load of decent ones; six / seven times on a 30% / 40% bonus is perfectly acceptable (to me), and I'd go for 10 times on a 50% deal. Of course, the above-mentioned type (no cashout below the deposit + bonus or greater) is nuts, and you'd be right to eto it. I've yet to find a casino with a 10 times requirement PLUS this awful stipulation, however!!
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| Posted by: PlayTheOdds at December 3, 2001, 6:57 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
There is another way to look at the Colosseum cash out rules. For $70, you get a $150 bankroll. Then, you play until you either 1) win $80 (to reach $230) or 2) lose $150. I would think that it would be somewhat more likely to win the $80 than to lose the $150, as long as you follow basic strategy. And, even if the odds were slightly in favor of the casino, you are risking just $70 to win a possible $150. So, even if there was a 60% chance of losing $70 and a 40% chance of winning $150, overall it is a good bet.
(40% x $150) minus (60% x $70) = +$18
But as mentioned by others in earlier posts, this is an all or nothing proposition. You can't break even, and you can't win a little bit. The stupidest thing to do would be to get above the $230 cashout threshold and then keep on playing. (Don't ask me if I've done that).
[This message has been edited by PlayTheOdds (edited 12-03-2001).]
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| Posted by: FairBet at December 3, 2001, 6:43 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Since the beginning, we have rated "bonuses" based primarily on the percentage offered, minimum required to receive the bonus, the amount of time it took to have it applied, etc.
In recent months, we began penalizing sites that we felt were "going overboard" with the cash out requirements...It appears the game is shifting from one where the casino is trying to protect itself from “bonus abusers” to one where the casinos are using bonuses to “lock players in” to betting requirements that all but guarantee they will end up with ALL of the players original deposit.
We are VERY MUCH against this new trend. It seems to be especially upsetting for “newbies” that don’t realize accepting the bonus ties up their own funds. (Based on a few complaints we’ve received, most just felt it was the “bonus” they were not entitled to cash out…) I know it is “gambler beware” but theirs is an understandable concern.
This month, we intend to implement a standard “across the bo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The_CPA at December 3, 2001, 6:24 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Sorry Doc,
Got to go the other way on this.
It's a Hotel California bonus. You can check out any time you want...but you can never leave! Until you loose it.
Maybe a bit dramatic, but having to Profit 30 plus % in order to cash out sucks. You could wager thru a million dollars worth of bets, played fair and square, put your money a zillion times at risk and not be in position to cash out for even 200 if you wanted.
Not many gamblers get out with a 33% profit.
Now having said that and you knowing the rules as you do. I think it is perfectly fine. You know obviously have a plan and attitude that would be fun and a perfect match as long as you go at it with that all or nothing attitude. You might crack the mark quick and just check on out!
It's really the newcomers that will get a disappointment and that's bothers me.
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http://www.CasinoPlayersAdvocate.com
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| Posted by: caruso at December 3, 2001, 5:57 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
Discussion? - No idea. I would personally never play under these suicidal conditions. The "deposit is safe must bonus must be at least intact to cashout" suits me fine, however.
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| Posted by: DrOakland at December 3, 2001, 12:03 am | | Topic: $ requirements for cashins Forum: Winner Online |
From Colosseum Casino terms and conditions:
"To cashin the Match bonus in conjunction with the free $10 bonus, you will simply need to have on your account the original amount purchased double the bonuses."
Interesting. They even have a chart that shows what to shoot for. If you invest $70, you get $150 bankroll, but then must turn it into $230 to cash out. Apparently no multiple playthroughs required...
Reminds me of BJ tournament conditions, where you are shooting for a particular amount. I would be tempted to try a martingale starting with $20 bets, which must succeed four times for $80 profit.
I have also seen other casinos that require the typical 5 times playthrough, but also require that you profit the full bonus as a minimum before you can cash out the bonus. You can cash out your deposit, but not the bonus unless you have at least the full bonus.
Has there been discussion on these tactics already?
DrO
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