| Posted by: AmateurSleuth at January 21, 2002, 10:10 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
The ABSOLUTE WORST bonus structure is the one where the player has to play through the deposit X times before earning the bonus.
This is the type of bonus I will never use. And casinos know this, because they take care to hide this information at the time and place they make the offer. It's called deceptive advertising.
More and more casinos are using this method to get people to deposit their money. But you are really hurting yourself, because you may get that money, but that player won't be back! Yes, I got burned on these promos a couple of times, until I learned to read everything ery carefully.
You are killing your business with the casual player by using these tactics. I received a promotion from Magic Oasis, a place I would never play anyway. However, the Subject line read "$30 Free No Deposit". (From: Casino Admin). Having no idea who it was from, I clicked because I thought a friend could probably use it (I knew it wasn't for me). Inside it says, use this co... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: CasinoRep at January 21, 2002, 8:34 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Like I said it's not all about the bonuses that you seem to perceive. That combined with the other elements makes it a winning combination. But the bonuses themselves isn't going to save your business name.
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| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at January 21, 2002, 4:08 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Thank you Colly for some excellent points. I have been learning about business for much longer than I have been learning about gambling, so I would like to offer a few additional suggestions.
Make your new player's bonus as simple as possible. I would bet most of the misunderstandings on the bonus offer are for the first time player.
Always fully disclose the terms of any bonus offer. This includes the beginning and ending dates, the time zone used for those dates, wagering requirements, excluded games, and ALL OTHER REQUIREMENTS. I realize that it may not be practical to put every bit of that in the email, but always include a prominent link to the full terms on the web page. I made a post here about what was either an honest error or a deliberately deceptive term by a heavily promoted RTG site. It had the last line of fine print stating that you would be ineligible for the bonus if you had already received the new player bonus at related sites. Mr Jergens just failed to list what tho... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Sirius at January 21, 2002, 4:04 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Why is RTG interested in bonus structures when it isn't running any casinos. It's clear that Michael knows more about the bonuses than the casino owners do but he hasn't advised them so far so why is he looking to advise them now?
Vegas Strip are stupid with their bonuses and as far as I know they still take a few months to pay. Shouldn't they have been closed down already?
Why can't RTG attract any good licensees?
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| Posted by: prosperity9035 at January 21, 2002, 11:38 am | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
RTG thank you for coming to the board and asking your questions.
To start I think the problem may be that either the casino owners or the people who approve the promotions at RTG do not know the absolute basics of gambling statistics.
The promotions put on by RTG are exactly the same as put on by others who have gone bankrupt.
You suggest a promo where you get a double jackpot if you win a jackpot.
I do not think an incentive to win MORE money if you hit a jackpot will bring in more players. Most people do not think they will ever win the jackpot to begin with so why would this help.
You are in a ery tough catch-22 position.
IF you do not offer nice bonuses for people to come back to RTG most people will never come back. You will probably also have great difficulty in getting new owners to buy your software and support packages unless they do no online research to see the problems players are now having with RTG.
BUT if you do offer nice bonuses ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: babe at January 21, 2002, 9:58 am | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
I'd like to start off by saying that by casinos excluding roulette from promotions is a big mistake. Casinos don't like the 'no risk' wagers of players betting black/red, odd/even, etc. In reality, these wagers will make the same % for the casino as any other bet on the board, the difference is that the fluctuations will be much lower and casinos like the players to have large swings in their bankrolls, preferably downward. If a casinos has a double zero wheel and offers a 20% promo with a 4x playthrough requirment, the casino will make money on roulette. By excluding roulette, the casinos are not getting play on one of the most popular and profitable games in the world.
With the competition being what it is among the online casinos, they have to do something to attract new business and kept their players. Until someone comes up with a better idea than cash bonuses, the casinos are stuck with them. One possible idea to the problem of players not risking their money is for casinos to implement ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: colly at January 21, 2002, 5:09 am | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
My bonus suggestions are for all casinos not just RTG.
Firsty- make them simple and basic- the complication of so many of the offers leads to confusion on both sides and creates ill will rather than generating play or loyalty.
The bonus.
Initial deposit bonuses - give a choice 100% or 50% with different playthroughs- but make them reasonable 20 times does not cut it for most players.
Ongoing bonuses- forget the specials at 100% make them reasonable 20-25% and give them to your regular players not just anybody (fortune lounge used to have similar 40% bonus for regular players)
Only give the non newplayer bonuses to email recipients.
Optional- make all bonuses optional- I rarely take up anything other than new player bonuses as it gives me the option to cashout when I like!
use the comps scheme- instead of % bonuses- double comp points for a period of play- this ultimately rewards regulars.
Delivery
Put the terms and conditions in the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RTG at January 21, 2002, 4:55 am | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Great comments about player complaints. I think you are right about the things players complain about, not only on the message boards, but in telephone support as well.
The pay for play schemes being discussed are definitely iable. I think that some of the RTG licensees use schemes like that.
About the risk of ruin line, I am afraid that constructing bonuses that have a ery high risk of ruin will not attract players, so they wouldn't be effective. Also, remember that on a statistical basis, even if there is a high risk of ruin, if the player has significant advantage, the law of large numbers will still make the bonus cost to the casino high. In that case, you may have a lose-lose scenario, where it is not good enough for the casual player, but statistically good enough for house to lose out in the long run.
Also, back to advantage VP for a sec... A player interaction system to monitor whether auto-players are logged in would be a near impossible task. First, do you want someo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jondo at January 21, 2002, 1:15 am | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
I'd do away with the upfront bonus all together. RTG already has ery good software,
I would get it independantly certified fair and monitored or checked randomly. I would have that certification available on demand. I would advertise in the print media to get the people in the doors. I make sure customer service was good. And payouts prompt. Sportsbooks can get netteller/paypal processed in minutes and FEDEX checks in two- three days. Install a fair comp program and give it a kick once in awhile with 2x, 3x days. With the VP you could even up the pay schedules at random once in awhile.Anything. These bonuses seem to be 99% of the complaints by both players and casinos.
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| Posted by: Blue Eyes Austin at January 20, 2002, 11:02 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
RTG, I think it is perfectly possible to offer bonuses that may have a positive EV for the player but still make money on the whole for the casino--make requirements that will significantly increase the risk of ruin. For example, you could have a $100 for $100 match, with a 10x playthrough. The EV for the player for this will be around $70, but if you increase the betting requirement (e.g. say that no wagers less than $10 will count) and that you can't deposit more than $100 the casino should make nice return from people going bust. The exact parameters of this type of promotion can be modelled, but you get the general idea.
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| Posted by: Jetset at January 20, 2002, 10:32 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Sorry - postscript:
I'm one of those who prefer the safe, assured fast payout casinos to enticing bonus offers.
With the possible exception of slow/no payouts bonuses are THE biggest source of conflict between players and casinos as you can see from just about any internet discussion on the topic.
Some casinos definitely have more trouble with them than others - Casino On Net operations for example offer quite generous bonusing but rarely seem to be the subject of complaints of bonus-disqualifications or manipulation to deprive players of winnings. Other major groups seem to prefer the straight cash award rather than percentages. Many of the low-end casinos seem to lack the ability to efficiently construct bonuses that won't bite them back.
If RTG develops a coherent and fair bonus / loyalty policy which is used honestly by licencees it can only be a commercial advantage. But licencees need to know how to construct the offers.
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| Posted by: Jetset at January 20, 2002, 10:21 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
CPA's suggestion has considerable merit and potential in combining the advantages of bonus and loyalty elements.
But this has to be backed by quality service and fast payouts to be fully effective.
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| Posted by: The_CPA at January 20, 2002, 6:53 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Going back to a Point AS made. I would agree that by the time you have successfully made the playthru or the terms on most ANY bonus that is properly constructed from the casino's side,you really come close to a NO bonus situation anyway.
I'm sure everyone has gone in and gotten a few good pops right off the bat without touching the bonus and couldn't cash out and were wishing they didn't have the bonus to begin with. LOL, Then lost it all back making the playthru or terms. So the bonus can work for or against. It an opportunity increaser more so than a bonus.
I would like to see a real bonus based on a alue for alue concept. This would be based on your level of play. There is no real reason for someone to go back month after month when they can go to the sister or a even a mutual competitor and sign as new.
The VIP points most offer are not enough to motivate the small to middle of the road player. This plan wouldn't be tied to how much is deposited, but how much,{won,lost ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vegascasinomaster at January 20, 2002, 6:26 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
RTG. The last post about using a program to play with is easily fixed also. First off it only applies to maybe %1 of players. Take a online game like ultima online. Players use a macro program to make their charater in the game gain skills and such while they are in bed sleeping. What should take weeks to do can be done in a few hours this way. How was it fixed? by having gamemasters walk up to people and engage them in conversation. after a while, no reply means they are not at the pc. I do not think you have thousands of people playing at the same time, so you could simply talk to people who have been online for a long time, and find out if they are at the keyboard or not. Having a terms and conditions policy that must be accepted by the player to get an account would help also. This would end the " WELL I THOUGHT "
excuse by players, and make the online casino have to also live by its own WRITTEN RULES.
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 5:43 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Regarding positive expectation ideo poker...
It is likely that you will not find much of it any more. There have been several occasions in which people have written auto-players to automatically play perfect strategy, unattended. I'm not talking about people who used strategy charts, but computers that would play continuously.
In fact, this happened to Casino Merlin over a year ago when it offered 100.7% Deuces Wild for a few weeks.
These auto-players have effectively killed the player-advantage VP machines, and ruined it for everyone else.
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| Posted by: CasinoRep at January 20, 2002, 5:38 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Right on the dot AmateurSleuth. RTG I think with new online casinos popping up like mushroom in this industry there seems to be a misconception that the incentive bonus is the bible to building a client base. As you have seen it backfires. Therefore I strongly believe in the old-fashion way. That is to emphasize more on your recognition, such as keen customer support, fast and reliable payouts, I mean when a player wins pay them and pay them fast! And perhaps a good loyalty program helps.
Welcome bonuses are nice, but don't overdue it when there are 2000 sites offering the same candycanes. Thus the only way you'll stand out is proving yourself with characteristics I mentioned above. And in believe me, word of mouth spreads quickly, you will gain players more efficiently in the long run.
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 5:36 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Regarding pay tables, if that is what it will take to get you to play there, please tell the site operators that you would play there if they raised the VP pay tables. This should apply equally to licensees of any software. There are a number of RTG licensees that have high pay tables. I am sure there is a web site out there that tracks that kind of thing.
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 5:33 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
VCM,
Unfortuneatly that has to be done to keep chargebacks down. There are people out there who would charge back even after they have won. By crediting back to the card, it reduces the exposure to chargeback risk. By the way, though, if you have a negative balance on your credit card statement, your card issuer must send you a check for that amount if you request it. Whether you receive the money as a check or as a credit, it is still yours. Even if you don't request the check for your card issuer, you can freely go and charge that amount in stores without having to pay the bill later.
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| Posted by: two_card at January 20, 2002, 5:13 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
I would probably play some at both.
My favorite local casino has full pay Double Bonus VP - 100.17% with perfect play and a 0.4% cash back. I like the challenge of beating the game but this game is ery difficult to be good at. No way am I ahead at this game. Most people know it is a full pay game and therefore play it - ery badly.
The .4% is available cash at the slotclub. If I put $5000 through the machines I get $20. In addition they send me about $20 a week in cash coupons I have to take to the casino.
They also have a good $10 - 2-deck blackjack game. This table is always packed.
Most of the RTG casinos have ery bad VP paytables so it takes a bonus to lure me.
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| Posted by: vegascasinomaster at January 20, 2002, 5:12 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Here is what is wrong. Why do you have bonus hunters in the first place? Why does a player put $200 on their isa to get a bonus at casino #1, and then go to casino #2, and #3, and so on? Because you have to win twice to make a profit, if you play with the funds you charged with your isa card. Purchase $200 on the isa, get $100 bonus. Play. Lose $100 bonus. Play some more. lose $200. Purchase $100 more on your isa. win $150. Request check for $150. Get reply that you must first re credit the $200 from your first purchase, and must then credit the $100 from the secend purchase. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU THE CASINO WILL REPAY THE VISA CARD, AND NOT THE PLAYER. There has to be a way to fix this, and not make you need to win twice if you lose at first to make any money. So if i lose the bonus at casino #1, IT SIMPLY IS NOT WORTH THE RISK TO CONTINUE TO PLAY THERE. In a real casino you go the the ATM machine, and take out $100, and lose it. Go back and take out $100 more, and make a $50 profit. THEY DONT TELL YOU T... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 4:24 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
AS,
I think its a great idea. In fact the admin software and coupon system support that kind of bonus differentiation already.
The managers just have to use it.
Another tool they have at their disposal is to offer different comps on different games.
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| Posted by: AmateurSleuth at January 20, 2002, 4:20 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
There is no question where I would play. The place that will pay me!!
The thing I have experienced with bonuses, especially those I have to wager 5X, 8X, 10X, even if I do win something, it will be eaten up with the wager requirements.
Another possibility, is to differ the bonuses for the games. For instance, I am a slots and VP player. My odds, are different than for a roulette or baccarat player. Can't you make promotions for certain games. Probably slots are the best payer in your casino. We have a hard time stopping when we win. A better bonus for us, would probably be a good thing, as opposed to a blackjack player.
What do you think?
AS
------------------
TheAPage.com
[This message has been edited by AmateurSleuth (edited 01-21-2002).]
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 3:48 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Thanks for the comments. So let's take an unscientific poll, with a decidely non-stratified, non-random sample:
If you had a choice between a) traditional sites with traditional bonuses, and b) sites with no bonuses, but a guaranteed quick payout, where would you spend more time? also, would you play at both?
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| Posted by: AmateurSleuth at January 20, 2002, 3:04 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Mr Ractrac,
One difference in your analogy between the market and the casino, is that with the market does not stand the chance of losing 10, 20 or 50 heads of lettuce for that one 19cent purchase, as a casino does.
RTG,
Land casinos absorb the cost of the comps they offer is a similar way, I guess, as do the "Markets" Mr Racetrack mentioned. Once you're there, you're bound to spend more than the cost of the comp they have given.
As you said, online casinos are a different business. However, the bonuses don't have to be nearly as much a part of the overall marketing as you may believe.
The casinos I play regularly, I rarely play with a bonus. If I like and trust a casino, I will put my money there more quickly, and more often, believing that I am more likely to cash out, if I don't have to satisfy wagering requirements.
Lots of players play often without bonuses. Fast payouts, good customer service, and responsible management go a long way ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vickinz at January 20, 2002, 2:39 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Three of us played Vegas Strip bonuses several times a week for six months. Between the three, we probably broke about even because we enjoy gambling and didn't begrudge losing back to them because of their generous bonuses which to us was a way of extending enjoyable play allowing us to take additional risks. I would bet $500US and would even double or split there, but wouldn't do that elsewhere. However, it was evident that a lot of players made a lot of money on the bonuses and good luck to them.
We would return to play there if payouts were quicker, because never at any other group, have we had the fun we got from them. They always gave the bonuses despite our often losing all within 1 - 2 times wagering of deposit. Thus we believed they were not out to "rob" players by giving them a decent chance of recouping, as often we did.
I have played at most other RTG casinos also. And usually when I have won on a 100% bonus, I have gone back to deposit without bonus in order to ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 2:38 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Mrracetrack,
It might be because there are so many casinos, and it takes no time to go from one to the next. In the context of supermarkets, you probably need milk anyway, and it is a hassle to go to another supermarket, let alone cost of gas, wear and tear on your car, your wasted time, etc.
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| Posted by: Mrracetrack at January 20, 2002, 2:27 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
RTG,
The "bonus" offers are somewhat
similar to "loss leaders" offered
by supermarkets.
If a supermarket offers a head
of lettuce for 19 cents, their
intent is to get the customer in
the store, and beside buying the lettuce,
that additional purchases are made.
If a customer chooses to just buy
the lettuce, he is not "barred" from
the store, or ridiculed and told their
"business" is not welcomed.
As most people would probably purchase
additional items, along with the lettuce,
the supermarket "absorbs" the "loss"
on the lettuce, hoping to profit by
the additional business brought in by
the "good deal" on the lettuce.
Since supermarkets offer these type
of "deals" on a weekly basis, as do
casino's with their "bonus offers",
Why are they profitable for supermarkets,
yet so "unprofitable" for casi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 20, 2002, 1:53 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Those are good ideas, but they are already covered by patents to Acres Gaming who provide floor networking for land operations such as Station Casinos. You would have to license those bonus structures for casino game software from them. Implementing it into RTG software would probably be a iolation making you ulnerable to legal challenge; they recently won such a case against Mikohn.
Incidentally, I would really appreciate it if you would take a personal interest in reviewing the recent leaking of my RTG player password as reflected here on this forum in the thread "In defense of RTG"
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 1:45 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Please don't misunderstand me. I am not putting the onus of bad bonuses back on the player. I am just pointing out that casinos do truly desire my point #6 above.
I am not judging that, this just is what I know from discussions with operators.
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 1:41 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
What do you think about bonuses like:
1) Double Royal Flush bonus
2) Bonus for any payout great than 4 of a kind
3) Bonus for any suited BlackJack
4) Other types of play, rather than play though bonuses?
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| Posted by: Dann at January 20, 2002, 1:36 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
RTG - This really is a good chance for a casino group to set the trend for future bonuses. If you make it 20% across the board (or whatever you think is fair), I'm sure others casino groups will take notice.
Of course, RTG will have to give players decent playthrough requirements, good customer service and quick payouts for this to work. But, it could end the rampant bonus hunting of which you mention.
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 20, 2002, 1:08 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
Why don't casinos just let players know what is the play-through amount that they find acceptable?
The whole bonus-abuse problem comes from the casinos understating the amount of play they want from gamblers to earn the bonus. Gamblers who meet the stated requirements but do not *exceed them sufficiently* are labeled bonus abusers.
If the casino states its true requirements, instead of making players go through a guessing game, then there'd be no problem.
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| Posted by: Dann at January 20, 2002, 12:43 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
I mean this in a sincere manner, but casinos could take a GIANT step by accepting responsibility for the bonuses they offer. Why is it that players are made to feel guilty for using bonuses that are presented by casinos?
If casinos don't want to deal with the hassles that come with bonus hunting, then - simply - don't offer them.
If your customers are playing by the rules, there is no reason the term "bonus hunter" should be considered "dirty."
Bonuses are like basic strategy blackjack or full-pay ideo poker - smart players like to minimize the edge whenever possible. You can't put the fault of online casino bonuses on these players. The fault belongs to the casino.
[This message has been edited by Dann (edited 01-20-2002).]
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| Posted by: RTG at January 20, 2002, 12:32 pm | | Topic: Bonuses, Over Bonusing, and Bonus Abuse Forum: Winner Online |
As everyone here is well aware, casino bonuses have become a way of life. In this forum, I would like to bring up some interesting points of discussion to get player feedback.
Let's start with some facts:
1) Bonuses attract players
2) Bonuses cost casinos money
3) For the bonus to be effective for the casino, the flow of players that it brings must outweight the cost of the promotion
4) For the bonus to be effective for the Bonus Hunter (BH), there must exist the probability that the loss in playing for the bonus is less than the bonus itself. Preferably for the BH, the bonus is structured in a way that the BH does not take upon himself any risk at all.
5) A poorly designed bonus can put a significant drain on a casino's resources, both in payouts, and in customer service.
6) Casinos do not want players that have no intention of genuinely risking their own money (even on a statistical basis).
Players,
What are your thoughts on finding the right balance, cons... | | Read Entire Entry |
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