| Posted by: laser at June 12, 2002, 11:52 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Being a designer of online casino games, I'm deeply disturbed by the news about Casino Bar software!
There is no need for a casino to cheat in their games. The casino already has an edge that gives is a profit.
This edge should be small so the player is happy and comes back to play again.
Making the player lose more than he thinks is reasonable will only make him leave and not come back.
The problem, in my opinion, is the tradition of huge bonuses.
Paying out large bonuses forces casinos to have a large edge,and can obviously lead to such apalling behaviour as we have seen here.
At the same time,it makes it ery hard for a casino that wants to offer a fair game.
Having a small edge, you can't offer as big bonuses, and thus can't attract customers as easily.
/laser
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: KX at June 12, 2002, 3:12 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
My belief is that you can still consider the game "rigged" or "unfair" even if they are not stating how the play actually takes place. When calling the game "Black Jack" and not for example "Black Jack Slots" players will assume that the game is dealt like a landbased game of Black Jack. In most countries I believe this would be considered fraud.
This discussion is just hypothetical though since the answer given to stevenb clearly shows they are stating that they don´t deal seconds.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: stevenb at June 11, 2002, 11:38 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Dirk_Dangerous:
I recently looked at Casino Bar's website, and as far as I could tell, they make no claims of the dealing a random card game.
That in itself is problematic IMO. However, if Casino Bar isn't making such a claim, they can't really be accused of cheating (although, if they are dealing the game they are accused of dealing, they would be accused of cheating in most major gambling markets).
But on the net, a casino can deal any game they want. What they can’t do IMO, is tell the world their game is fair and random and then deal a non-random game.
Personally, when I take into account the lack of any “fairness” claims on Casino Bar’s website and the recent data on their game, I wouldn’t go near the place. Fact is, there are so many better games out there, I can’t imagine why anyone would play this casino.
Dirk,
This is my first post. I have been reading olumes on this site and have benefited greatly from the many... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at June 11, 2002, 9:30 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Dave makes an interesting point here:
"Isn't it amazing than when IGlobalmedia corrected its bj game, they never refunded $$$ to any customer that was ripped off when the game was BLATANTLY rigged. Unbelievable"
Perhaps noone asked for compensation?
But that takes us a little O/T, and I wanted to say that Online Casino News has a widely reported glowing review of Casino Bar up at present to my dismay after the happenings of the past week. I thought OCN was better than that, and the timing bears scrutiny imo.
[This message has been edited by Jetset (edited 06-11-2002).]
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: vickinz at June 11, 2002, 7:44 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
I knew he was some academic, but in my country many academics haven't much experience actually practising in their field of expertise.
However, being based in Nevada, I somehow guess you are right LOL! Wonder whether they stopped him taking notes at the blackjack tables - they perpetually told me not to when I first played LOL! They had no idea I was a mathematical-illiterate!
[This message has been edited by ickinz (edited 06-11-2002).]
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Dirk_Dangerous at June 11, 2002, 6:16 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
I recently looked at Casino Bar's website, and as far as I could tell, they make no claims of the dealing a random card game.
That in itself is problematic IMO. However, if Casino Bar isn't making such a claim, they can't really be accused of cheating (although, if they are dealing the game they are accused of dealing, they would be accused of cheating in most major gambling markets).
But on the net, a casino can deal any game they want. What they can’t do IMO, is tell the world their game is fair and random and then deal a non-random game.
Personally, when I take into account the lack of any “fairness” claims on Casino Bar’s website and the recent data on their game, I wouldn’t go near the place. Fact is, there are so many better games out there, I can’t imagine why anyone would play this casino.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Woody0 at June 11, 2002, 5:37 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
This is certainly getting ery interesting. In no way should you consider me as an apologist for Casino Bar but let me examine the terms "random", "fair", "cheat" and "simulate". This brings up an issue that I have commented upon several times.
By way of analogy let me consider ideo poker. Some time ago I happened to play a few hands in the UK. I gave up quickly when I seemed to not be getting winning hands that might reasonably be expected. Recently I read, from John May, that in the UK ideo poker is like slots and returns a fixed percentage. That means it does not accurately "simulate" the dealing of cards. You might say it "cheats" but it is "random" and "fair" since everyone is treated equally.
In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Nevada is the only US gaming jurisdiction that requires ideo poker to accurately "simulate" the dealing of cards. In the US machines made by major manufacturers are ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: magnek at June 11, 2002, 8:49 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
actually Dave, when Casino Bar in its earlier days was questioned by angry players who claimed they were ripped off, their common response was to add a small token amount to their account as a gesture of "goodwill"
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Dave R at June 11, 2002, 7:58 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
No problem.
Also, if you check the "Discussions" area of the above "Cheating Casinos" website, you'll see you'll see an email from non other than
MARIO WELLS OF IGLOBALMEDIA!!
Letter from Mario Wells (Re: new software on Megaplay, Zantana, etc.). Posted April 11, 2001.
I represent the following sites:
LuckyHeartsCasino.com
GoldenFortuneCasino.com
CashMonstersCasino.com
WinnersLand.com
BigCatCasino.com
CaribbeanStarCasino.com
ApollaCasino.com
Egyptia.com
ZantanaCasino.com
StarluckCasino.com
PlanetLuck.com
I ask that you take the time to go thru our sites again. We recently had our software developers run analysis on our games and they did find some bugs and they have corrected them.
Regards,
Mario Wells
Chief Operations Officer [Endquote]
Isn't it amazing than when IGlobalmedia corrected its bj game, they never refunded $$$ to any customer that was ripped ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Dave R at June 11, 2002, 7:04 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010603...asinocheats.htm
This was written WAY before The Wizard did his expose. The moral of the story is that the industry is completely unregulated, and a completely rigged game can stay in operation for SEVERAL YEARS.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: vickinz at June 10, 2002, 8:25 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
If the casino's lawyers are like some lawyers in my country often are, i.e. technically/mathematically challenged, IMO they should have just said: "We can hardly comprehend how you could possibly reach these.....conclusions", instead of qualifying that with "incorrect and misleading" so as to imply they understood more than they were capable of.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: nvaughan3 at June 10, 2002, 5:51 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by the meister:
Check out what I have to say about Casinobar.com and their pushy lawyers.
http://www.casinogazette.com
The Bryan Bailey Show
I beg of you to use something other than realmedia.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: gamblinboi at June 8, 2002, 9:33 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
anyone trying to get their losses back if they played blackjack at this place?
I lost money here, quite a bit, and i definately thought that the dealer did not bust nearly as much as usual...
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: WizardOfOdds at June 8, 2002, 7:12 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
The Casino Bar attorneys felt my post here was unprofessional and iolated the waiting period agreement. In my opinion they have a alid point. So I won't be commenting publically on this case until the waiting period is over.
[This message has been edited by WizardOfOdds (edited 06-11-2002).]
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Jetset at June 8, 2002, 3:48 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
It is going to get interesting in a few days when Casinobar will presumably produce it's factual refutation of Michael's study (and btw there is always the way back machine to get the original article)
How will Casinobar guarantee it's submission is based on the software as tested by The Wizard is one question that springs to mind?
I believe Casinobar will have cause to regret this form of over-reaction - particularly in regard to the Casinomeister news report. There are more intelligent ways of addressing a problem like this in a positive way than by throwing legal threats around.
Involving the independents in tackling any "faults" in the software is one.
If the software is proved to be as unbalanced as reported, then one can understand Casinobar's anxiety and haste in wheeling out the lawyers - for instance what about the players who may have been prejudiced to date?
Until this dispute is settled only the unwary, the ery daring or the dumb would... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at June 7, 2002, 8:29 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Trader; To make a change like the change made in CasinoBars code is VERY easy to do. I wouldn´t have a problem doing it and I´m not much into programming. One could argue which language is easiest (Java, VB, C++ or whatever), but it is ery easy in all of them.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: The GameMaster at June 7, 2002, 7:51 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Hello, Everyone.
I have a copy of the Wiz's results, although not a copy of the original article that was posted on his site. But let me recommend that we allow Michael to honor his agreement and hold off for just a few days more.
In the meantime, the results my "operative" had while playing at Casino Bar are posted on the Blacklist page of my site. And that play is recorded on ideotape, in case anyone wants to dispute our report.
------------------
Yours for winning,
The Gamemaster
www.gamemasteronline.com
www.gamemasterarcade.com
www.gamemasterlist.com
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: damiandunlap at June 7, 2002, 6:15 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
it seem to me , that casino bar people well do there own test, to see if the software is legit, they need to have a out side source test the software, i think wizard test was good enough, how can any one believe a test coming from casino bar or someone they pay.
please dont back down, from them
they owe me money, and yes max i am mad
they stole my money
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at June 7, 2002, 5:40 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
There is a well known adage among lawyers that "If the facts are against you, argue the law." This is how Casino Bar responded. They do not deny that there code deviates from an actual game of blackjack, they complain about someone else possessing the code. This is another concern I have about the no download java casinos. While I am not personally knowledgable in programming, it is my understandig that it is much easier to modify the java code than it would be to change the download ersions. I still have my card by card logs of more than 600 hands from September to December 2000 at Casino Bar and my results are consistent with those recorded by the Wiz. It should also be remembered that I only knew where to look for problems after seeing extremely bad results on my own and hearing many similar reports from more experieced gamblers.
I am sure the report of cheating by a recognized expert like Mr Shackleford is hurting Casino Bar. GOOD! They deserve to be out of business for cheating s... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at June 7, 2002, 5:02 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Wiz; Keep on doing the great work! If the case is that you´ll ultimately be forced not to post the correct results I´m sure that me, and other ppl here will see to it that the information will stay alive through this and other boards.
For what it´s worth I soon have a masters degree in financial mathematics, and I could not see any errors in your calculations.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Dirk_Dangerous at June 7, 2002, 4:07 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Stand tall Brian. You're doing the right thing.
I hope the Wiz doesn't back down on this. I believe his analysis to be correct, and a bad precedent would be set if he were to cave in to these people.
The door would be opened for any dubious casino to bully good people around.
[This message has been edited by Dirk_Dangerous (edited 06-07-2002).]
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: the meister at June 7, 2002, 3:56 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
On June 6th both Michael Shackleford and I were contacted by COA's lawyers. We have both posted our repsonses here:
Casinomeister's http://www.casinomeister.com/casinobar.html
The Wizard of Odds' http://www.thewizardofodds.com/game/casinobar.html
Bryan Bailey
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Jetset at June 6, 2002, 7:35 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
According to the latest Casinomeister newsletter it looks as if the Casinobar lawyers are trying to muzzle The Wizard's expose of this questionable outfit.
Tampering with the freedom of objective reportage is a double edged sword. It also refocuses the spotlight on the whole casinobar issue.
[This message has been edited by Jetset (edited 06-06-2002).]
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at June 5, 2002, 7:08 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
KX, I also agree with you about abusing the abusers. I changed my position about playing at Golden Palace for those who are still offered their good bonuses because of that. I will never play there again, but since they have been able to survive despite the outright theft of many thousands of dollars from some people, I am happy to see any of the nice people here win as much GP money as possible. I will just be doubly sad if you happen to lose there. I will also be sad when they eventually refuse to pay your winnings, but at least you are on notice that they have done it before, so don't be surprised when it happens.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: KX at June 5, 2002, 3:46 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Syd; The Wiz had a quite extensive play and to judge from the data the theory that he had about how the game was rigged seems to be correct. I´m a little sceptical about the 95% figure though and if I had the time I would make a program to simulate the outcome of that game (in fact I´ll ask a friend now and see if he´s willing to do it, he´s a faster programmer...).
IF the payout is indeed 95% playing basic strategy under those rules, the payout playing proper strategy (taking the rules into account) should atleast yield 96%, and with a 100% bonus that IS a good deal.
Sure, there is a risk of the software being even more rigged but I don´t believe so personally. The wiz data gives a clear indication of this alteration being the only one but surely even more data would be nice...
Most ppl seem not to like "supporting" ugly casinos. To me it´s the other way around. I like taking money from the bad guys (that is only playing with bonus), and giving to the good guys (ie ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Syd at June 5, 2002, 2:47 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Trader 1.1:
To believe otherwise would be like saying politicians only lie on Tuesdays.
Trader....that was classic.
KX: It's been clarified that Casino Bar cheats...but to what extent they cheat is still unknown. Does this not concern you somewhat?
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: KX at June 5, 2002, 2:14 pm | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Trader; I´m apparently one of the ppl you talk about... I play large bets if you relate it to the size of my bankroll. I do believe this is a better way to play online and I´ve explined my iew in a long thread some months ago.
This is why:
* Large bets makes the risk of being considered "abusing" smaller.
* Large bets increases EV since at least for me cashing in checks cost money. Few but large checks is better than many small. Also, betting large will make you play a smaller amount of money on average and thus decreasing the amount that you´ll give away to the house edge.
* Large bets decreases the time it takes to play a casino and gives you time to take part in other offers instead.
When playing for bonuses where you can´t withdraw your initial deposit the scenario isn´t the same, but granted that possibility (like with Crypto) I believe large bets are better.
To bet so high you can´t double is plain stupid, but except for that large bets are goo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at June 5, 2002, 11:17 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Just another thought for anyone thinking of playing at Casino Bar: We now know that their blackjack game contains some cheater code that prevents the dealer from busting as often as he should. We know that Casino Bar officially thinks that there is nothing wrong with this practice.
What we do not know is whether or not the game is set up to cheat in other ways. It is reasonable to believe that they would not stop at a single instance of cheating. A well designed program would be set up to cheat just a little in several different areas to avoid detection. It is also reasonable to believe that their other games would also be set up to cheat. To believe otherwise would be like saying politicians only lie on Tuesdays.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at June 5, 2002, 8:51 am | | Topic: CASINO BAR IS FRAUD BEWARE NEW PEOPLE Forum: Winner Online |
Caruso, I agree with you that the B/S changes with Microgaming would not make a major difference. It seems that when I play the multiplayer ersion at Cryptologic I see more serious errors every time out. Most of the errors could be characterized as excessive timidity, ie, not to double with 9 or 10 when that is clearly indicated, and to stand with 12-16 even against dealer's 10 for fear of busting. I also see people overbet their bankroll to such an extent that even a ery normal bad run causes a wipeout. Sometimes they bet so much on one hand that they could not double or split if they wanted to.
I have seen unusual occurences at Microgaming blackjack, but with a lot of play at many of their casinos, my overall results are quite good. My real point is that with payouts in the 98% range in spite of so much really bad play the online game must approximate a real game. The fact that Casino Bar thinks that a 95% payout is normal tells me that their game is fixed for sure.
| | Static Link |
|