| Posted by: Got2Bet at August 9, 2002, 7:53 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
You guys realize we just dated ourselves big time? LOL... a Vic 20! My friend had one of those
Dave - I used to use university telephones to run a BBS during my work shifts LMAO. Used my C128 for that... and as for programmers - my friend wrote tons of games for the Atari and others - he'd get a game done every few days. Don't know where he is know but suspect he is quite rich.
He (like a couple other friends) were also world-champion ideo game players, discovering every single back-door secret for all the games. I was a pinball player myself, but my one claim to fame in ideo games was Dragon's Lair
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: Dave R at August 9, 2002, 3:44 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Getting back to the subject at hand (and I'm just as guilty of going off topic as anyone else), Clockmedia was guilty of running a rigged bare-all bj game.
Basically here's what happened:
Certain advantage players realized that the rules of the game were extremely favorable to the player. If I remember correctly, players had an advantage of 2.5% over the house. WOW!
OK -- All of a sudden Clockmedia realized what was going on, and decided to rig the game. The cheat mode was turned on, and these players got screwed. This is documented at www.gamemasteronline.com
on the online casino blacklist page.
Jorge Alvarez, CEO of Clockmedia, blamed it on the programmer, whose name I forgot (was it Alexander??) He said there was a dispute between himself and this programmmer, and that the programmer got pissed, and hacked the server, and rigged the game.
Ofcourse, Jorge's ersion of things makes absolutely no sense. If the programmer wanted to hack the server, and rig the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Syd at August 9, 2002, 1:20 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Mustang: As long as the industry remains unregulated, the only people watching the casinos will be the players.
Until independent and random audits are conducted....who wouldn't be suspicious? When a company is audited the records being checked are not at the discretion of the company.
You say prove it's rigged, I say...prove it's not.
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| Posted by: deaning at August 9, 2002, 1:08 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Hopefully this thread will be archived. Some great info. Particlarly GoTobet and yor random post. Very helpful.
Dave R.... first intro to puters was the TRS 80.
3 days doing the paint the house bit put me off for a long while. Decided to forget the numbers and concentrate on the pics.
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| Posted by: mustang at August 9, 2002, 1:02 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Syd...I have never denied that my company has done advertising for a few casinos in the past. I have said from the ery beginning that I had an advertising agency. That isn't new.
"I knew you were in bed with them."
Doing advertising work for a casino is what got me involved in this industry. It doesn't make my opinions any more or less alid.
I am a problem solver not an activist. I don't believe that the answer to every problem is to get out the signs and bitch and complain your way into a resolution to your issue.
When I hear a bunch of people that like to sit around and complain I have to say something.
I believe that I have some ery alid points. If you don't think they are alid then it is no skin off my nose.
I am a player just like most of you. But I don't play like most of you.
As long as the player's first concern is how big a bonus they are going to get on their first deposit and don't give online casinos some minimum reward of l... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Syd at August 9, 2002, 12:42 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Mustang: I personally do not believe you would believe anything negative about Microgaming even if proof was provided to you on a silver platter.
PWC works off of what Microgaming gives them not what the casino gives them. The majority of the people that are in here are no more or less trustworthy than PWC.
No one has questioned the integrity of PWC
YOU have zero proof of anything.
The same would apply to you.
magnek...I seriously doubt that they would program the software to determine if you were a "good player" or a "bad player".
You doubting something is totally meaningless. As someone once said "it's software people!"
As I mentioned before my company did some advertising for a few online casinos.
I knew you were in "bed" with them
I personally believe that PWC's audits are accurate and are a true representation of the casino's game payout percentage.
Whoop, I'm sure that... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: mustang at August 9, 2002, 10:28 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
PWC works off of what Microgaming gives them not what the casino gives them. I did a little research on this and I was told that these statistics that PWC audits are not under the control of the individual casino.
So if you don't believe that PWC's reports are alid then you are saying that Micro is cooking the books for their licensees' casinos. I personally don't believe that.
Trish...there is no evidence that the results are staged. You simply do not know what you are talking about. You believe the "theories" that are thrown out here and take it all as fact. The majority of the people that are in here are no more or less trustworthy than PWC.
The fact is that you are a conspiracy theorist. There is nothing that could be done to convince you that the game payouts are accurate. Even if a government agency audited them you would come up with another conspiracy to back up your "feeling". I use the word "feeling" because that is all it is. YOU have z... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Dave R at August 9, 2002, 9:51 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
I had a TRS80 Coco, which in my personal opinion was the most useless computer I ever bought, since I couldn't DL software for it, and Radio Shack over charged for the software.
Next I had a C64, and ran a BBS system using IMAGE BBS software. Ran for several years, and had numerous players.
Next I got an AMIGA, which I personally enjoyed using more than any other computer I currently own. Too bad the format has disappeared. I ran an 8 LINE CNet Amiga Bulletin Board system for several years on this software. Multiplayer chat and multiplayer online games. If anyone wants a clue to WHO I really am, do some reseach into the game Nuke-Em (World War III) for the Cnet BBS software. I co-wrote it in
REXX (a language quite similar to basic).
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at August 9, 2002, 7:49 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Pretty close LOL - the statement is right. But it still will not work without the RANDOMIZE statement preceding it - and the seed can still be predicted by brute force techniques.
I had both a Commodore 64 and 128 Plus a clone Apple IIc and an early IBM PC. The only ones I never had were a TRS 80, an Amiga (which I dearly wanted), a Sinclair and a Mac.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at August 8, 2002, 9:33 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Are you talking BASIC, mini-BASIC, Turbo Basic, Quick BASIC, BASICA, or Visual Basic?
All except the last will absolutely produce the exact same sequence without the command RANDOMIZE preceding the first instance of the RND() function.
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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information
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| Posted by: TrishSands at August 8, 2002, 8:52 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
I agree with what Trader said in his post except the line... "For a casino to be checked out by the Wiz or to have PWC as an auditor is better than nothing"
I don't see why having the Wiz or PWC checking out unverified and staged results are better then nothing. In fact it is much worse then nothing because it pretends that some type of meaningful audit was done. This is nothing more then an online casino gimmick and most seasoned players know this. This type of marketing ploy is aimed at new players coming online and while it is one thing for the WIZ or PWC to make money looking over results that are provided by the ery people they are supposed to be checking it is another for the OPA to begin publishing these numbers as if it is a fact.
These audits are useless and misleading. On this ery board someone recently argued that MG could not be "cheating" because they have a 97% payout! If there are some here who still do not understand that MG provides the ery numbers to PW... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at August 8, 2002, 8:42 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Magnek -
If you knew BASIC well you would know that the rnd function by itself did NOT create randomness. Without the presence of certain other commands, using the RND function would generate exactly the same sequence every time it was run.
Furthermore, even when the other commands were used, the seed was based on a clock. If someone could figure out the exact time (in seconds since X, usually Jan. 1, 1980) that the sequence was generated, they would have a ery significant clue as to the potential sequence of numbers - simple brute force cracking methods would be able to establish this in a short amount of time. Then all they would have to do is to obtain another few sequences to establish the timing of the supposed RNG, and they would be able to defeat randomness most of the time as long as they were able to send a command and have it transmitted to the gaming server within a second.
Unfortunately, many other programming languages acted - and still act - in the same way - so ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: magnek at August 8, 2002, 5:43 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Just because the average payback is on par (it isn't) doesnt mean the game isnt rigged. It may be rigged positively for a non perfect player as an incentive to keep him there and rigged negatively for the advantaged and basic strat player. This would keep the balance at or near par. I wouldn't be so naive to think that the software can't distinguish between a good and bad player and adjust itself accordingly. The bottom line is 50 losses in a row is irtually impossible with a truely random deal.
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| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at August 7, 2002, 7:03 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Real casinos with real regulators are subject to random inspections without prior notice. No matter how much a casino operator wants to cheat, the possibility of a billion dollar investment being shut down deters a lot of cheating. There is no analagous situation online. Even after Casino Bar was caught red handed after nearly two years of complaints by their customers, they are still operating with an increased advertising budget. For a casino to be checked out by the Wiz or to have PWC as an auditor is better than nothing. Just don't be tricked into a false sense of security that this is an equivalent of regulated land based casinos. I have still never heard of a case where an internet casino was forced by "regulators" to pay an agrieved online gambler.
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| Posted by: Syd at August 7, 2002, 2:29 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by mustang:
Then how do you explain people complaining about Microgaming's Blackjack when PWC says it averages about 97% payout?
Mustang: As usual you are full of cow dung. PWC is only going by what the casino gives them - which could be anything they want. I'm not saying MG is rigged....but I'm not going to rely on some bogus PWC audit for proof that it's not.
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| Posted by: mustang at August 7, 2002, 12:20 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Then how do you explain people complaining about Microgaming's Blackjack when PWC says it averages about 97% payout?
What are the advantages to running a rigged game that ends up with a 3% hold in the long run?
I hear people around here that "know" MG's Blackjack is rigged...if it is rigged for them then some other lucky player is getting paid the money that got robbed from them.
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| Posted by: magnek at August 7, 2002, 10:07 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
pure bullcrap mustang,
the cards are supposed to be random. whether from 1,2,4 or 8 decks, the computer is supposed to dole out random cards. It can pick out a random number from 1 to 52 or from 1 to x. It should be no different than in a land casino. I learned how to generate a random number back when basic was the program of choice. The command "rnd" was simple to use and a ery aluable tool. If I could program a blackjack game to deal a random game using this basic function then why can't real programmers.
How do I know this particular software doesn't? Well based on The accuracy of one not hitting on 50 straight hands of VP then using Mary's numbers it is statistically impossible. Period. The same would go for 50 BJ lossses in a row. My simple program using the simple basic function never even came close to a streak of that nature over billions and billions of simulated hands. I had it running for months on end studying the frequency of winning and losing streaks.
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| Posted by: mustang at August 7, 2002, 6:56 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
magnek...
If you are so sure about that...then tell me exactly how you know this.
I fully understand the odds when playing "real Blackjack or real VP". The online game is strictly a representation of the real game. It doesn't follow some of the basic fundamental rules that real casinos do.
When you play Blackjack you know how many decks are in play and you have a chance to see all the cards that have been dealt and you know about how much is left in the shoe.
With online blackjack you know none of these things.
[This message has been edited by mustang (edited 08-07-2002).]
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| Posted by: magnek at August 7, 2002, 6:39 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
boy i sure wish the Wiz frequented these boards more often. 50 losses in a row at either BJ or VP is not possible in anyone's lifetime, Moses included. These guys have been proven cheaters in the past (remember Jorge). This seal of approval is Poo Poo.
While on the subject of seals of approval, what exactly does the OPA think they are doing getting into this racket? How about a publishing of those million hands from Sunny?
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 6, 2002, 5:42 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
It's more likely to get 50 losing hands in a row in blackjack than in ideo poker.
However, even taking into account the number of hands being generated and the number of players...and there weren't many other players, because it was a new site...the odds were higher that the player be hit by an asteroid than get 50 losing hands in a row.
Roughly, the odds of getting a losing hand in ideo poker is about 50%. So, in one hand, it's 50%. Two hands in a row is 25%. Three hands in a row is 12.5% Four hands is 6.25% Five hands is 3.125% Six hands in a row is 1.5625%
Fifty hands in a row is a alue of 1/2 to the 50th power.
Now, were we to take the results of all the players to play on this site, for say, 100 years, sure, it might come up. But shortly after the site has opened?
Not impossible. But, it's also not impossible that the I be struck by lightning at this er
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| Posted by: mustang at August 6, 2002, 9:52 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Mary,
I would think that 50 losing hands in a row would be rigged but are you sure? I know that these 50 hands that you got were loses but if everyone else that was playing at that time was winning is that rigged?
If the same casino, over a period of a month, does hundreds of thousands of wagers isn't there a chance that someone is going to get 50 losing hands in a row? Is that impossible?
I know that every game is different and has different rules, odds, etc.
If you look at blackjack what are the odds of someone getting a blackjack?
Most of the casinos have blacjack rules like 1-8 decks reshuffled after every hand right? Is that specific to that computer or to the network? Is the gaming server taking 8 decks and randomly pulling the cards for that hand every time the server is hit with a request to "deal"?
If that is true then you could, in theory, hit 50 blackjacks in a row depending on how many people were on the network and requesting t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at August 6, 2002, 9:45 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Trader 1.1:
I am sure that Mr Shackleford is capable of explaining himself on this matter. I think he would have to agree that he cannot prove the negative. He can say he found no evidence of cheating and that all that he did see was kosher for the time he inspected it. There is no way he can have a definite opinion on things he did not test. If they, like Casino Bar, cheat at some times, but not at other times, it would be impossible to detect unless the right records were reviewed. Even CPA's other than Arthur Anderson sometimes miss evidence of wrongdoing.
A second issue is whether or not the bonus structure of Infinite Casino is a good deal for the player. It seems to me that the information is fairly disclosed from the iewpoint of an experienced internet gambler, even if it is complicated. From the iewpoint of a newbie, it is complicated beyond normal expectations, and should be considered deceptive. As I understand the conditions, I will not be accept... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: mustang at August 6, 2002, 9:36 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Sorry...I have to agree to disagree.
I am just throwing this out so please don't jump my butt. As I have previously stated I am not a statistical guru.
If someone disagrees with me then by all means set me straight.
Here is what I think could be the problem with online gambling and why some people have what seams to be terrible odds or ery unlikely things happen from what are really totally random games when you inspect the game logs.
I am talking about the reality of a network of computers that are all connected to the same gaming server.
If you were playing a game that had its odds set for one machine and was not networked with other machines then these instances of bad odds or weird things happening might be eliminated.
What happens when you have a number of computers that are accessing a gaming server at the same time?
If you have 100 people accessing a gaming server at the same time...and the server sent out a set of totally random resu... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Alexander at August 5, 2002, 11:43 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Are Clockmedia games fair? Honest answer, I have no idea. I personally would rather play at one of the bigger names, such as a Bossmedia or Microgaming casino.
Clockmedia casinos are currently licensed in nowheresville.
The game servers are located at the following address(as of November 2001):
1080 Beaver Hall, Suite 1801
Montreal, Quebec H2Z 1S8
CA
Make your own informed decision.
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| Posted by: Bet2Gamble.com at August 5, 2002, 8:19 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
I called Infinite Casino a few months ago to find out some information about them. When I asked one of their professional csrs where they were licensed and located the csr replied, "On the Internet". I then said come on man where is Infinite's physical location and he replied, "F*** you!" and hung up. The total time of the conversation was about a minute.
C.M.
www.bet2gamble.com
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 5, 2002, 6:43 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
"I asked him about the randomness of the games. He said that when a new casino comes online it takes about 1 million wagers for the game odds to stabilize."
Basically, a meaningless statement.
Distributions of results (i.e., what you got, or what it's programmed to give out) are described by two ariables:
1.The average alue (that's your house edge, in gambling terms)
2.The range of alues around that alue that are expected to happen x% of the time.
In a small sample, that range can be large in relationship to all the numbers possible.
In a larger sample, the range begins to "narrow" closer to the average--which is probably what was meant by "stabalize".
"Converge" would be a better term; but it comes from focusing on the average alue and not looking at the range. Depending on the game being tested, 100 trials can provide a sound indication of randomness or lack of same. 50 losing hands of ideo poker in... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at August 5, 2002, 2:27 pm | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
Mustang; In my opinion you are way off...
A small example:
If someone is dealt 100 consecutive losing hands in Black Jack the game IS rigged.
A small sample can be ery interesting but the results need to deviate ery much from the expected results. If you have a ery large sample smaller deviations will be enough to prove that a game is rigged.
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| Posted by: mustang at August 5, 2002, 8:01 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
I have recently developed an informal relationship with someone that is involved with running an online casino.
I asked him about the randomness of the games. He said that when a new casino comes online it takes about 1 million wagers for the game odds to stabilize.
Now I am not a mathematical or odds expert, but it seams to me that for someone to truly test the absolute randomness of a game's odds they would also have to run about the same number of wagers through the ringer.
Anyone that thinks they can make 1,000 or even 10,000 wagers and determine the randomness is dealing with a sampling that is way too small.
Am I off here?
I have heard that when the IRS audits you the best thing to do is turn over every single record you have and let them figure it out. Basically drowned them in data. Maybe this is essentially what happened to the Wizard.
Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by mustang (edited 08-05-2002).]
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| Posted by: Trader v1.1 at August 4, 2002, 11:50 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
I am sure that Mr Shackleford is capable of explaining himself on this matter. I think he would have to agree that he cannot prove the negative. He can say he found no evidence of cheating and that all that he did see was kosher for the time he inspected it. There is no way he can have a definite opinion on things he did not test. If they, like Casino Bar, cheat at some times, but not at other times, it would be impossible to detect unless the right records were reviewed. Even CPA's other than Arthur Anderson sometimes miss evidence of wrongdoing.
A second issue is whether or not the bonus structure of Infinite Casino is a good deal for the player. It seems to me that the information is fairly disclosed from the iewpoint of an experienced internet gambler, even if it is complicated. From the iewpoint of a newbie, it is complicated beyond normal expectations, and should be considered deceptive. As I understand the conditions, I will not be accepting their offer. There are many more attractive of... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Dave R at August 4, 2002, 7:29 am | | Topic: The Wizard puts his seal of approval on CLOCKMEDIA software Forum: Winner Online |
The moral of the story:
Its possible to pull the wool over the eyes of experts, and get away with it.
Jorge from Clockmedia is one smart guy.
No wonder Dirk decided to call it quits.
Its stuff like like this that makes me paranoid.
Its ironic that the guy that exposed Casino Bar for cheating is also the guy endosing Clockmedia.
Give the Wiz full back end access, and the turn the cheat mode back on after he leaves.
Perhaps KX was right after all.
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