| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 9, 2003, 5:16 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
That's odd, KM. This is from the post-hacking incident press release, in 2001:
"CryptoLogic said its loss from the hacking incident is not expected to
affect its quarterly results. The company anticipates net income of
US$4.2-$4.6 million this quarter, on revenue of US$9.7-$10.2 million.
At these levels, both income and revenue would be significantly ahead
of last years third quarter.
The company also announced Wednesday that it was in the process of
getting its software certified by the governments of the Isle of Man
and Alderney, two island territories off the coast of Britain that
have recently legalized online casinos.
Asked if that means that some of CryptoLogics licensees have applied
or plan to apply for online gaming licenses in these jurisdictions,
Chan-Palmateer said, Yes, thats an appropriate conclusion. Were
preparing ourselves and positioning ourselves so that we can get out
of the gate pretty quickly. ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at January 9, 2003, 10:08 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
As for RTG, well, KX, their executives were, shall we say, not interpreting consensual reality the same as I when we met in person, so I read all their textual product well-seasoned. Very well-seasoned.
Though the history of their casinos is a strong argument for fairness in the software. Who would rig both software and bonuses for assured self-destruction?
Very interesting indeed... But regarding payouts RTG is probably the software I trust the most. Still not sure about randomness though, and your statement increases my suspicion.
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| Posted by: KM at January 9, 2003, 10:04 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
When pressing Ryan for details about Intercasino, I was told, by him, that the only testing of their software was done by them. no outside erification or testing of anything.
I asked about their audit procedures and he said they sent their computer records to the auditor who then reviewed them for their payout %'s. This confirms this was not an on-site, qualified audit where the books were opened.
This opens the door to another issue..... How do the "auditors" knwo the info they are getting is not doctored? How do they know if the players who were paid are real players or shills for the casino?
Until there is true documentation of a "fair deal" meaning random, then I have to beleive the temptation to rig and make more millions mu overide a sense of running a truly honest online casino.
KM
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 9, 2003, 10:01 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
As for RTG, well, KX, their executives were, shall we say, not interpreting consensual reality the same as I when we met in person, so I read all their textual product well-seasoned. Very well-seasoned.
Though the history of their casinos is a strong argument for fairness in the software. Who would rig both software and bonuses for assured self-destruction?
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 9, 2003, 9:58 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
True Gambler will be releasing results of the beta with respect to ideo poker on the 13th of this month. They have been working on this project for some time.
Pretty cool, eh?
KX, I was being conservative in assertions of fairness...can be checked, though. If Isle of Man has the same requirement as Nevada that all of the software packages of that ersion supplied by Boss and Crypto regardless of jurisdictional placement must conform to their rules for the company to remain licensed as a supplier...I'll just have to ask!
It would be a good standard for the Virgin Islands to adopt as well.
Microgaming had text that was ery specific about card games in particular.
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| Posted by: KX at January 9, 2003, 9:12 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Mary; From your statement: "Many online software suppliers do not specify that their games are anything other than merely random, i.e., do not specify that the ideo representations of casino card games are programmed to behave as their land counterparts. Microgaming does so specify. You will find a list of Microgaming casino at: www.jackpotmadness.com
All casinos licensed on the Isle of Man must also meet this standard. Those are: www.hardrockcasino.com www.playmgmmirage.com www.clubfiore.com www.casinoatlantis.com www.littlewoodscasino.com "
I get the feeling that you believe that MGS is the only ones stating that the cards are dealt like in a true game of for example BJ.
I donīt agree. The Cryptologic statement you quoted in another thread is one example:
"The random-number generator used in InterCasino's propriety software has been tested and found to conform with the results of similar games found in Atlantic City (with respect to randomness and pa... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: nepenthe at January 9, 2003, 8:20 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Speaking of which, check this out:
-----------------
TrueGambler.Com Inc. (http://www.TrueGambler.Com) would like to announce a new software product and analysis service that is determined to answer the question “Are Online Casinos Fair?” once and for all.
The Online Casino Analyzer consists of two components, the client and server.
The client will make a detailed recording of the actions of both the player and the casino in both blackjack and ideo poker. These results are saved in a log file on their machine and also uploaded to the server. The server will them compile the results from all players using the software and perform detailed statistical analysis of the results. These results will confirm several key aspects of casino play, including card distribution and payout percentages. Based on these statistics, it will then be possible to determine if the results from a casino are statistically fair.
The Online Casino Analyzer is currently in an open B... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: yournightmare at January 9, 2003, 6:58 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Up to 12 months ago, I was deposting up to $3000 a month and since gambling online I have had my share of wins and losses.
Since this time,I have reduced my monthly online casino expenditure to $300 max. IMHO unless your gambling at a creditable land based casino, the likelyhood or the possibility of an online casino using bias software, is always at risk. Until an online casino allows it's RNG output to be monitored by a creditable third party 24 hours seven days a week, everything will always fall to speculation and opinions, as to software bias.
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| Posted by: Tortex at January 9, 2003, 1:25 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
Wager21
Blackjack excludes ten+Ace as a BJ; no mention in product. Documented on WOL posts.
www.goldbetting.com www.ladydream.com www.players-edge-casino.com
Wasn't it Luckyringcasino that had these strange BJ-rules?
Wager21 (Ladydream, Goldbetting) is just screwing players and making up stories to avoid paying players.
[This message has been edited by Tortex (edited 01-09-2003).]
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| Posted by: Dirk_Dangerous at January 8, 2003, 5:10 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
You are correct Mary about UG taking actions against a number of big winners. They would offer good games/good promotions, and then make up all kinds of lame excuses to not pay winners.
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 8, 2003, 3:13 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Ok, Dirk, will do for you.
Need to add IQ Ludorum to the list too...as you can see, it is a draft.
Will also entertain suggestions. This is one of the things I was working on before leaving the OPA: lists with the reasons and sources of info. Otherwise, we keep haing the same allegations and arguments here on WOL.
Also, such a list unaffiliated with anyone affiliate or advetising site would be more likely to be picked up and circulated by webmasters to make their advertising choices or inform their customers.
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| Posted by: Dirk_Dangerous at January 8, 2003, 2:19 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
Payout percentage can be set on card games.
Statement concerns UG software.
Mary, I know many players have suspected UG software of cheating, but I was unaware of any firm evidence of such. Since you aren't careless when making these types of statements, could you clarify this a bit. My own results with UG were ok last time I checked. However, I haven't played a UG casino in a long time.
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at January 8, 2003, 1:35 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso:
C. (Emotional casino owner & shill, whose opinion was clearly not sought but who offered it nonetheless, in all humility.)
All right, what are you up to now, Caruso. I know you're not a casino owner nor a casino shill.
Silly person.
To the topic:
Some software is fixed. Some does not appear to be. Depending on the sophistication of the fix, it can be easy or difficult to tell.
As a general rule, cheap cruddy looking software used by few sites is more likely to be fixed, and fixed obviously.
There is also a difference of opinon as to what is "fixed". In many land jurisdictions outside of North America, ideo poker is not required to behave as a mathematical replication of cards randomly dealt from a 52 or 53 card deck. Video poker is the considered a form of slot machine. Online, www.slotland.com offers such a game.
Not too surprisingly, ideo poker in those markets is not popular as ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caruso at January 8, 2003, 12:51 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Maybe online casinos are geared simply to pay out to the flat betting bonus hounds a reasonable, "normal" game and take the poor. emotional, addicted gamblers to the cleaners?
Think you've got it back to front. Since the poor addicts are going to loose their shirts anyway, why on earth cheat them? Makes no sense. Cheating the FBBHs would make better sense.
C. (Emotional casino owner & shill, whose opinion was clearly not sought but who offered it nonetheless, in all humility.)
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| Posted by: KX at January 8, 2003, 8:29 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
KM; I would guess few of us know, but personally I would find it easier to construct a rigged casino WITH an RNG than without one. Not having any random number generation would make it hard to construct a software that gives the IMPRESSION of being fair or almost fair.
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| Posted by: KM at January 8, 2003, 4:02 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
How many of you (other than casino owners or shills) have actually inspected the hardware or software of any online casinos?
How do we know there are any RNG's of any type?
How do we know that the software doesn't insert results depending on the player's bet amount or betting patterns?
Maybe online casinos are geared simply to pay out to the flat betting bonus hounds a reasonable, "normal" game and take the poor. emotional, addicted gamblers to the cleaners?
With millions (and billions) of dollars up for grabs, why wouldn't most casinos cheat?
KM
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| Posted by: BlackjackInfo at January 7, 2003, 3:50 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
There are many ways that RNG output can be translated into an effective random game, but here's one that I use in the games offered at my site.
Assume a 52 card deck, represented as a list of 52 cards. To shuffle it, I run through each of the 52 spots, and swap the card in that position with a randomly selected card from the deck.
That is, I choose a random number between 1 and 52 using the RNG, and swap that card with the card in position 1. Then, I choose another random number from 1 to 52, and swap that card with the card in position 2. Continue until every position has been swapped, and you have a randomly ordered deck.
Then, just deal the game off the top of the deck as normal.
Both the Javascript game at my site, and the Flash game at my site utilize this method of shuffling.
------------------
-Ken-
SlotCharts.com; BlackjackInfo.com
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| Posted by: Greek Viking at January 7, 2003, 3:08 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Is anybody able to explain to a non-expert how the casino "translate" the numbers produced by the RNG to the succession of cards that the dealer draw from the shoe.
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| Posted by: zrapture at January 7, 2003, 2:48 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
There is a ery small insignificant difference between RNG and PRNG. Anybody who has gone to college in the last 10 years most likely understands the difference.
It is true that most "rigging" has nothing to do with the RNG and most likely is the work or program code written to execute after the RNG's work is done.
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| Posted by: KX at January 7, 2003, 2:47 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by gamblinboi:
wow it's amazing the lack of technical knowledge about RNG and PRNG and the myths that persist out in the lay world.
Agreed.
Quote:
RNG stands for Random Number Generator. Picture it as a black box (either a hardware black box or just a "magical software black box") and it's only output is a stream of numbers that is random. By random, i mean it's impossible to guess the next one out even if you've tracked millions of numbers that came out before it. For a casino, a random number generator is typically a hardware device. For example, a hardware RNG could be a device that detects the decay of a radioactive isotope (due to quantum mechanics, it's impossible to predict when the decay will occur, and hence is completely random).
You say casinos typically use a hardware device. Do you know this for a fact? The only casino software I KNOW use hardware based RNGs is Boss Media.
Isnīt it wrong to claim ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: gamblinboi at January 7, 2003, 1:43 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
wow it's amazing the lack of technical knowledge about RNG and PRNG and the myths that persist out in the lay world.
RNG stands for Random Number Generator. Picture it as a black box (either a hardware black box or just a "magical software black box") and it's only output is a stream of numbers that is random. By random, i mean it's impossible to guess the next one out even if you've tracked millions of numbers that came out before it. For a casino, a random number generator is typically a hardware device. For example, a hardware RNG could be a device that detects the decay of a radioactive isotope (due to quantum mechanics, it's impossible to predict when the decay will occur, and hence is completely random).
Now, as for PRNG - pseudo-random nubmer generators. Contrary to what was posted above, pretty much every modern operating system (Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, etc.) has a random number generator built into it, based on software. The generator is a bunch of algorithms that ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at January 7, 2003, 1:14 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso:
It won't depend on the computer, but it WILL be a distinct entity from the "real" ersion...
Distinct entity, but the RNG on the UNIX server might ery well be programmed identically to the RNG being run on the individual PC. On the other hand it might not
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| Posted by: caruso at January 6, 2003, 1:10 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
It won't depend on the computer, but it WILL be a distinct entity from the "real" ersion, unaffected by whatever twists & tweaks that one contains, if twists & tweaks there be.
However, it occurs to me that while the OLD software has a seperate, offline "practice" mode, the NEWER ersions do not - they all operate online. I recently re-downloaded SOTC, and the GE ersion, same as Inter, no longer has the offline function. It's all incorporated into the one online package.
So it depends which ersion the thread-starter is running.
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| Posted by: KX at January 6, 2003, 7:02 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso:
In the Online mode of William Hill Casino, the random numbers are generated by our UNIX gaming server while in Practice Mode they are generated using the standard Windows random number generator on your computer.
Like I said, Stat Man's computer's rigged.
Heh, never even heard of RNG-software incorporated into Windows... But if it is, it still wonīt depend on the individual computer (hardwarevise). It is probably identical on all PCs but might differ based on the ersion of Windows installed.
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| Posted by: caruso at January 6, 2003, 6:29 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
In the Online mode of William Hill Casino, the random numbers are generated by our UNIX gaming server while in Practice Mode they are generated using the standard Windows random number generator on your computer.
Like I said, Stat Man's computer's rigged.
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| Posted by: Seeker at January 6, 2003, 6:15 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
I'm sure crypto's fair. I've had bad games on crypto, but good games too.
I'm not complacent though, and of course I'm worried that software's dealer might tend to win more often as bets rise. It's just that there's precious little proof of any kind that this is happening. I think that if it were happening, the Wizard would have jumped on it by now.
It's worth remembering that even in a totally fair game, your risk of ruin (ie loosing your bankroll) increases dramatically as you increase your bet size.
Try playing to table minimums, and I think that you will find that you will win money more often than you loose. (This assumes that you obtain some kind of bonus before playing)
Remeber too that some Crypto Casinos are effectively no risk. Frexample,I'm pretty sure (but don't bet your last shirt on it) that at Intercasino you can cash out your deposit before you have met minimum WR.
At WH you do need to play-out the WR before cash-in, but their whole setup ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at January 6, 2003, 4:22 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by zrapture: run on the RNG of your computer. So if you are questioning how random the cards are, you would need to contact Compaq or Dell and complain.
[/B]
Ehhrmmm... Interesting. So you do in fact believe that Dell and Compaq mounts small RNG-chips on the motherboards of their computers
My guess is that Crypto uses an advanced programmed RNG which is identical no matter if you run it at home or at Cryptologics servers. It doesnīt matter what computer you use, the processor will execute the RNG-instructions in the same way no matter what.
My guess is thus that it does not matter that the game is in offline mode, the results will be identical.
Besides, as most of you probably know it doesnīt matter what brand you have on the outside of your PC, the inside will be VERY similar.
I might be wrong, and Crypto might be using a hardware based RNG at their servers. In this case the results could be different, but one can be rath... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: zrapture at January 5, 2003, 10:58 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
To add to carusos post.
The fun games on these downloads run on the RNG of your computer. So if you are questioning how random the cards are, you would need to contact Compaq or Dell and complain.
The for real play is based on the RNG on the casinos end. Then you would complain to the casino.
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| Posted by: Woody00 at January 5, 2003, 2:16 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Stat Man, 2/5 and 4/15 is hardly a sufficient sample size to be significant.
Since you are in fun mode collect data on 10,000 hands.
Be careful with the modified basic stategy.
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| Posted by: KX at January 5, 2003, 2:57 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Stat Man:
When I bet small - $5-20 range and utilized modified basic strategy with staggered bets, I was able to be up about $30.00 in ten minutes.
Are u saying you are modifying your BS based on how you bet?
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| Posted by: charls2k at January 5, 2003, 12:48 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Stat Man:
I really want to be a the blackjack dealer and earn a small commission on bets at the William Hill Casino. Four times in a row the following scenario unfolded. When I bet small - $5-20 range and utilized modified basic strategy with staggered bets, I was able to be up about $30.00 in ten minutes. However, when I switched to flat maximum betting, the dealer miraculousy woke up. My ratio of hands won/lost changed from 4/5 to 2/15. Amazing turn-around. Unless anyone thinks I am a glutton for punishment - it was free mode. I think it makes a point though. Try it for yourself, and I know you will be impressed too (don't use real money though)!.
There is absolutely no fairness in gambling,it's your strategy and luck that may probably make you win a little!
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| Posted by: jen at January 5, 2003, 12:45 am | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
A Crypto casino gave me a $10 no-deposit bonus. I lost it almost all and hit a jackpot of $200 on my last $0.75, waited for my PIN for a couple of weeks and cashed out.
I am not sure about "rigged" but their software is full of bugs, I have personally experienced that when money suddenly dissapeared from my casino account at Kiwi due to central server's crash.
Ecash has a ery bad customer support, it seems they always ignore emails.
[This message has been edited by jen (edited 01-05-2003).]
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| Posted by: nepenthe at January 4, 2003, 8:07 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
I've had my run of bad luck at single-player games, but I'm not inclined to decide the games are rigged. The java mode is fair as well, in my experience.
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| Posted by: bonuslover at January 4, 2003, 6:14 pm | | Topic: Cryptologic Software - Fair? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Stat Man:
However, when I switched to flat maximum betting, the dealer miraculousy woke up. ...
You are NOT ALONE in this regard.
If it ain't for the bonus, I would never ever play a Cryptologic casino. Even when I am playing the bonus, I only play at full tables. (The casino won't do anything suspicious in front of so many eyes.) Remind you, NEVER play alone nor java mode.
[This message has been edited by bonuslover (edited 01-04-2003).]
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