| Posted by: Devast at April 30, 2003, 7:12 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
I see that this topic has generated a large and mostly uniform response.Everybody agrees with the action that the Casino took - apart from Sirius.
Not entirely correct. I agree that the casino was within their rights (given their T&C) to take the action that they took, not necessarily that it was the correct thing to do.
We have however gained a few ery useful tips regarding Terms and Conditions and are currently reviewing them so that we can ensure that they are even clearer than before.
An excellent idea and the change already made is a change for the better.
Finally, the offer to give the player a "do over" is sporting and plus for this casino over all. (IMHO)
Oh, and dont be so dismissive of semantics, you do know where the devil is don't ya?
Devast
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 30, 2003, 5:00 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Basically, the affiliate manager can't find out the reasons the casinos ban the games. I actually doubt he knows the distinciton between banning them and not allowing them towards the wagering requirements. A lot of casinos allow the games but they just don't count towards the wagering requirement. I expect we'll never know if the rules really meant they were just excluded from the wagering requirements.
Quote:
The reasons are the Casinos and i assume they have good reasons for it.
I can only assume that they are tired of players playing grind games and taking no risk wagers
on some of these games so they have excluded them.Tell me which Casinos allow Roulette and
Baccarat and the other games to be played .I assure you that they will be in the minority.
The Havana Club has reintroduced Vidoe Poker and Cyberstud as part of the wagering requirements
This Casino also does not have special requirements for Danish players as most other Casinos do.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: hhcfreebie at April 30, 2003, 9:52 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Sirius I know your point well.
The problem is, when we bet with bonus it's a rather sensitive moves for casinos. They allow players to bet on certain games only with bonus. Normally I'd assume that if I play on restricted games with bonus I WILL have troubles when I cash in. Why does this player do it at first place? Not to mention his strategy is seriously flawed and highly in favor of casino.
The correct strategy should be bet as high as possible on allowed games for maxmium profit.
Sure it would nice if the casinos are generous enough to give out his winning and bonus, but they have full rights to oid his winning and bonus when the rules is broken.
Imagine you got a coupon for soup and you insist to use it on the bread you purchased.
It doesn't make much sense for casinos to forbit players to play on certain games but keep in mind those casinos owners are just average people. They make up their own rules, be it stupid or not, players should follow exactly that.
Maybe you can ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Sirius at April 30, 2003, 8:04 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Anon615:
Do you really think the casino would have refunded the guy's losses at Bac from losing at an "excluded" game? That T&C clause exists solely to take a free roll at the players' expense.
Anon615
[This message has been edited by Anon615 (edited 04-30-2003).]
Well it's strange, really. They refunded just his deposit in the first place (presumably because he played the excluded game) but if he had lost I doubt he would have been locked out and had his money refunded!
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 30, 2003, 7:58 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
He just emailed me this so maybe he got mixed up before or something:
Quote:
The terms and conditions on the website indicate to me that you are not
able to wager on excluded games once you have taken the promotion before
you have met the wagering conditions. Once you have met the wagering
conditions you are able to wager on whatever it is you wish to wager
upon.
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| Posted by: Anon615 at April 30, 2003, 7:28 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Do you really think the casino would have refunded the guy's losses at Bac from losing at an "excluded" game? That T&C clause exists solely to take a free roll at the players' expense.
Anon615
[This message has been edited by Anon615 (edited 04-30-2003).]
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 30, 2003, 6:04 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
I noticed his first response to the player and to this thread (on the first page) didn't say he played a banned game.
From his post:
Quote:
This player took his whole purchase and bonus and wagered on a resticted game on his first hand-Baccarat .He won and then proceeded to grind out the rest on Keno.The Casino felt that it was not right and that he had abused the promotion.They then refunded the purchase together with an explanation to the client.
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 30, 2003, 6:01 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
kscasino.com terms say:
Quote:
Play on Roulette, Craps and Baccarat will not count towards meeting the minimum wagering requirements[
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 30, 2003, 5:47 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
I know everyone is bored of this thread but I emailed Greg (the affiliate manager who posted here) asking if he could find out the reason for the banning of these games completely. He says they are not banned! I asked for some clarification but he hasn't replied for the last few hours.
Quote:
With reference to your previous email and this particular
one I can tell you that you have described precisely the
sort of play that Casinos experience on a daily basis. The
Terms and Conditions of the majority of Casinos reflect this
and they have reason to exclude these games as this type of
behaviour has been on the increase for a number of years. The
Casinos enforce all of this on an independent basis after analyzing
Game play data built up over a number of years. The fact that they
Are Microgaming Casinos is purely coincidence as you get casinos
>From other software providers with the same T&Cs.Take a look at the
ones on kscasino.com... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Sirius at April 29, 2003, 5:47 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by jpsartre:
From the T&C of UK Casino Club:
'Any bonuses MUST be wagered BEFORE making any cash-in. You can win with the promotional bonus but MUST NOT wager on BLACKJACK, CRAPS, ROULETTE, BACCARAT, PROGRESSIVE BLACKJACK or PROGRESSIVE ROULETTE during the course of the promotion.'
From the T&C of Kiss Casino:
'For New Player Bonuses,Monthly Bonuses and loyalty bonuses, play at Roulette, Pai Gow, Craps and Mini Baccarat are excluded and cannot be played until you have first fulfilled each promotions wagering requirement. If you wager on these games before the wagering requirement is fulfilled, we will oid all gaming action in the casino regardless of the game played, remove the bonus and return your original deposit.'
These are just two examples of how the T&C SHOULD sound if play is truly prohibited from certain games.
I have to say the Kiss rules aren't all that great. They seem to suggest they would refund yo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at April 29, 2003, 2:33 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
My clout at Vegas Towers is limited. Also, I believe the player had previously contacted Julie - and as long as she is in receipt of the case I shouldn't be interfering - I just made an exception in this particular case and let Julie know.
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 29, 2003, 11:45 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by jpsartre:
'I keep saying that there's no financial sense in banning these games if the casino requires the full play through (from non-excluded games) before any withdrawels but I wouldn't be surprised if the casinos didn't realise this.'
The sense is this:
After every player puts both his bonus and his deposit on one hand of baccarat the total amount of money available to all players will be (more or less) the same as before making the bet. However, the total amount of dollars having to be wagered before the bonus can be withdrawn will be cut in half. Of course, not every player plays the double or nothing strategy but if enough do it is clearly a reason for excluding the games that allows the player to make 50/50 bets.
[This message has been edited by jpsartre (edited 04-29-2003).]
I did mention before you could argue that. What is the difference though if a player plays a big wager in a game that counts towards the wagering? I... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jpsartre at April 29, 2003, 11:16 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
'I keep saying that there's no financial sense in banning these games if the casino requires the full play through (from non-excluded games) before any withdrawels but I wouldn't be surprised if the casinos didn't realise this.'
The sense is this:
After every player puts both his bonus and his deposit on one hand of baccarat the total amount of money available to all players will be (more or less) the same as before making the bet. However, the total amount of dollars having to be wagered before the bonus can be withdrawn will be cut in half. Of course, not every player plays the double or nothing strategy but if enough do it is clearly a reason for excluding the games that allows the player to make 50/50 bets.
[This message has been edited by jpsartre (edited 04-29-2003).]
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 29, 2003, 11:04 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by jpsartre:
From the T&C of UK Casino Club:
'Any bonuses MUST be wagered BEFORE making any cash-in. You can win with the promotional bonus but MUST NOT wager on BLACKJACK, CRAPS, ROULETTE, BACCARAT, PROGRESSIVE BLACKJACK or PROGRESSIVE ROULETTE during the course of the promotion.'
From the T&C of Kiss Casino:
'For New Player Bonuses,Monthly Bonuses and loyalty bonuses, play at Roulette, Pai Gow, Craps and Mini Baccarat are excluded and cannot be played until you have first fulfilled each promotions wagering requirement. If you wager on these games before the wagering requirement is fulfilled, we will oid all gaming action in the casino regardless of the game played, remove the bonus and return your original deposit.'
These are just two examples of how the T&C SHOULD sound if play is truly prohibited from certain games.
Doesn't anyone else find these newish rules a bit stupid for the casino? Casinos tend to copy... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Clayman at April 29, 2003, 10:19 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by jpsartre:
'For New Player Bonuses,Monthly Bonuses and loyalty bonuses, play at Roulette, Pai Gow, Craps and Mini Baccarat are excluded and cannot be played until you have first fulfilled each promotions wagering requirement. If you wager on these games before the wagering requirement is fulfilled, we will oid all gaming action in the casino regardless of the game played, remove the bonus and return your original deposit.'
Thanks - I think that's the paragraph I was thinking of before. I remember when I read it thinking "that's how it should be said". That is crystal clear. And that's from someone who normally can find ambiguity in the word "No".
Even "New T&Cs: Players cannot use "bonuses" or "free cash" to play Blackjack, Baccarat, Craps, SicBo and Roulette." might allow for a player on a 50/50 to make a $10 bet on BJ and think that it is coming out of his deposit and not out of his bonus and ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jpsartre at April 29, 2003, 9:36 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
From the T&C of UK Casino Club:
'Any bonuses MUST be wagered BEFORE making any cash-in. You can win with the promotional bonus but MUST NOT wager on BLACKJACK, CRAPS, ROULETTE, BACCARAT, PROGRESSIVE BLACKJACK or PROGRESSIVE ROULETTE during the course of the promotion.'
From the T&C of Kiss Casino:
'For New Player Bonuses,Monthly Bonuses and loyalty bonuses, play at Roulette, Pai Gow, Craps and Mini Baccarat are excluded and cannot be played until you have first fulfilled each promotions wagering requirement. If you wager on these games before the wagering requirement is fulfilled, we will oid all gaming action in the casino regardless of the game played, remove the bonus and return your original deposit.'
These are just two examples of how the T&C SHOULD sound if play is truly prohibited from certain games.
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| Posted by: gamblinboi at April 29, 2003, 9:12 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
agreed, tony_k, that is MUCH clearer.
the "play is excluded from..." was imo ambiguous (those that would argue it wasn't ambiguous, well, sorry, but the simple fact of the matter is that when people derive two different meanings from it, then it is ambiguous) and it's nice that the casino has reinstated the players account and cleared up their T&C.
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| Posted by: tony_k at April 29, 2003, 8:56 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
New T&Cs:
Players cannot use "bonuses" or "free cash" to play Blackjack, Baccarat, Craps, SicBo and Roulette.
It is much "clearer" than:
Play is excluded from Blackjack, Baccarat, Craps, SicBo and Roulette.
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| Posted by: Clayman at April 29, 2003, 8:54 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso:
Two things:
1) I never understood what the fuss was about; the T & C are CRYSTAL CLEAR - no bonuses to be wagered on Baccarat; bonus wagered on Baccarat = bonus / winnings oided. End of story.
2) The casino now seems to be saying they're going to return the player's correctly-voided winnings for further play. Nice gesture, but a mistake. Once you start bugging them to change the T & C in the players' favour, why should they then be expected to NOT change them AGAINST the player?
You can't have your cake and eat it; retroactive T & C changes are bad news.
Respect the T & C and you have the right to expect the casino to do likewise. Ignore them and you forfeit that right.
Although I agree that the terms are reasonably clear here, as Greg says, they could be improved. I think it's great to see a manager allowing for the possibilty of improvement and admitting at least the possibility of a grey area. ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caruso at April 29, 2003, 8:10 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Two things:
1) I never understood what the fuss was about; the T & C are CRYSTAL CLEAR - no bonuses to be wagered on Baccarat; bonus wagered on Baccarat = bonus / winnings oided. End of story.
2) The casino now seems to be saying they're going to return the player's correctly-voided winnings for further play. Nice gesture, but a mistake. Once you start bugging them to change the T & C in the players' favour, why should they then be expected to NOT change them AGAINST the player?
You can't have your cake and eat it; retroactive T & C changes are bad news.
Respect the T & C and you have the right to expect the casino to do likewise. Ignore them and you forfeit that right.
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| Posted by: tony_k at April 29, 2003, 7:31 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
It is a new player bonus, correct?
Some of them are beginners. He/She may give a try arious games inlcluding baccarat, blackjack, ideo poker, etc. If these games are really prohibited (i.e. the player will be kicked out), They will be trapped. This promo is ill-designed.
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at April 29, 2003, 6:51 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Terms & Conditions are not meant to give reasons... LOL...
None of us have to agree with the T&C if we don't want to. But if we play, we implicitly accept the T&C.
If we have questions about the interpretation of a particular term, we should be asking first.
I don't really see how that could be misinterpreted.
True, the original intent of these rules were to prevent the essentially no-risk wagers as Sara described. But original intent and current intent may not be the same and all gamblers under any circumstances would be well advised to always read through a T&C before play.
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| Posted by: Sara at April 29, 2003, 6:42 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
I'm not sure the rules ARE clear. Excluded games were first mentioned in T&C to protect casinos from sharp players betting red/black, house/banker ect. to play through their required action on a "risk-free" bet. It made sense because the normal play-thru was only 3-4x bonus! The world's changed and at 15x D+B only a fool would bet red/black for the bonus. The focus now for most casino bonus schemes is to ban low margin games like BJ and ideo poker in addition to the "risk-free" games.
The point to my post is if the casino can give a reason in the T&Cs why they ban certain games we would have a clear picture of what the playing field looks like.
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| Posted by: jpsartre at April 29, 2003, 6:32 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
You should definitely make it more clear that the games mentioned are not just excluded from counting towards the wagering requirements but excluded from play alltogether.
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| Posted by: alkemizegreg at April 29, 2003, 3:38 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Hello All
I see that this topic has generated a large and mostly uniform response.Everybody agrees with the action that the Casino took - apart from Sirius.
The management of The Havana Club (after careful review of the game play of this particular individual) has decided that he is not a client. He is not good for us ,he is not good for you (THE AFFILIATE) and he is not good for the industry.
While The Havana Club always appreciates input from others, with regard to makings T+C's more user friendly, the basic principle, that wagering free cash on excluded games, is clear enough, and has been ignored 100% by the Player concerned.
We have however gained a few ery useful tips regarding Terms and Conditions and are currently reviewing them so that we can ensure that they are even clearer than before.
In this case however it is quite clear and apparent that he has abused the promo from whatever angle you look at it.
As a final gesture of goodwill , the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at April 29, 2003, 2:05 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
I may be wrong about the numbers - but that is not what this thread is supposed to be about. After eating and having woken up I can see some logic in what Sirius is saying.
However, the rules are quite clear, and the rules were clearly broken. End of that discussion.
Discussion about playability of baccarat for meeting playthrough requirements? Yes, it can be done. And in fact I believe it should be allowed under certain circumstances. But this instance is not one of them.
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 29, 2003, 12:57 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
I don't think it's clear that they prohibit these games but others may disagree. Most casinos just do not count them towards the wagering requirements.
The player completed the wagering requirements so I don't see how it justifies oiding the bonus and winnings. The terms seem to allow withdrawing early and forfeiting the bonus but I missed this before. In this case it might make sense to disallow games in case a player used the rule to his advantage and withdrew before completing the requirements (treating the bonus as a non-cashable one).
This gets a bit confusing though when you consider players withdrawing before completing the requirements. If the bonus was non-cashable, the player could make an amount approching it if he aimed for a high cashout amount. Whenever he withdrew and the bonus was removed, he would have made an average profit in the long run of nearly the amount of this bonus. To maximise this amount, he would either have to play a ery low house edge game or a game with... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Got2Bet at April 29, 2003, 12:06 am | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
(145-50=95)
Does it not make sense to you that if a casino wins one and loses one, it should end up with a 5% edge? Your logic escapes me entirely.
The casino is not going to give you a gun to turn against it unless you do it under limited circumstances which it chooses.
Anyhow, like Croupier said, this is all irrelevant. The wager breached the T&C and therefore the play has been declared oid.
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 28, 2003, 11:35 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
The player could have a slight advantage (by playing games with less house edge) if he was able to cashout anything before completing the wager requirements. From the casino terms and conditions, it seems Havana does allow the player to withdraw everything but the bonus, but I doubt they would be happy with anyone doing so judging by this case. The player in question completed the requirements though.
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| Posted by: croupier at April 28, 2003, 11:26 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
It's irrelevant whether the casino gains from the player playing a prohibited game.
The rules prohibit play at baccarat and therefore the player has broken the rules.
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 28, 2003, 11:22 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
Spearmaster is right--it does make sense for the casinos to disallow negative expectation games after the granting of a bonus.
Because with the coupon, and allowed, they are positive expectation. 49% positive expectation in this instance.
?? Well I will have to think through this again but I doubt you are right unless the universe has suddenly changed!!! The bonus isn't a non-cashable one!
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at April 28, 2003, 11:14 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Spearmaster is right--it does make sense for the casinos to disallow negative expectation games after the granting of a bonus.
Because with the coupon, and allowed, they are positive expectation. 49% positive expectation in this instance.
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 28, 2003, 11:12 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Got2Bet:
OK, most of you are getting into little semantics... LOL... it is quite clear to all of you that the games are prohibited for the purposes of bonus playthrough and there really isn't any doubt that he broke the rules.
[QUOTE]I don't believe in the concept of irregular gambling oiding play because as you pointed out, the casino accepts the bet."
There is no choice in the matter - the online casinos do not have a pit boss monitoring every bet you make, unlike a land-based casino.
The only possible alternative here is to NOT give you any bonus money - then you do what you please.
[QUOTE]This rule is just a mutation from the 'excluded from play through requirements' rule. There is no advantage to the casino from excluding the games completely. It makes no sense to oid the winnings due to this."
C'mon, Sirius, this is NOT possible. The T&C is clear. He wagered the bonus on a game which was not allowed. There is NO... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Sirius at April 28, 2003, 11:02 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
This should be resolved in favour of the player because it's actually not possible to gain any advantage by playing a negative expectation game that doesn't count towards the wagering requirements. The casino may have thought otherwise but I doubt it, really. There's no reason to oid winnings for playing the 'disallowed' games.
At first, I think I assumed the rule just 'disallowed' these games in the sense of them not counting towards the wagering requirements but I've got so confused now that I can't remember what I thought. It doesn't make any financial sense for the casino to disallow them altogether unless they are trying to unfairly catch players out.
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at April 28, 2003, 10:50 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
OK, most of you are getting into little semantics... LOL... it is quite clear to all of you that the games are prohibited for the purposes of bonus playthrough and there really isn't any doubt that he broke the rules.
Quote:
I don't believe in the concept of irregular gambling oiding play because as you pointed out, the casino accepts the bet.
There is no choice in the matter - the online casinos do not have a pit boss monitoring every bet you make, unlike a land-based casino.
The only possible alternative here is to NOT give you any bonus money - then you do what you please.
Quote:
This rule is just a mutation from the 'excluded from play through requirements' rule. There is no advantage to the casino from excluding the games completely. It makes no sense to oid the winnings due to this.
C'mon, Sirius, this is NOT possible. The T&C is clear. He wagered the bonus on a game which was not allowed. There is NO question of this.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Devast at April 28, 2003, 10:06 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
That is exactly the problem. That statement is clear as mud. If this were to go to trial in a US court (just as an example of a method of dispute resolution) I wouldn't enture a guess as to how either a judge or jury would decide given the ambiguous nature of the T&C. Flip a coin.
You would think a big online casino could hire a half way decent lawyer to draw up this document for them. Any second year law student could do a better job.
Devast
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 28, 2003, 9:55 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
The 'Play is excluded from' rule is bugging me. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean what most people think.
Play is excluded from {list of games}
If they meant to exclude the games from the promotion it would make more sense to say:
{list of games} is excluded from play
Play (i.e wagering) is excluded from {list of games} seems ery ambiguous to me and doesn't really disallow the games. This rule is/was written directly under their stated wagering requirements.
If they meant to disallow the games, then they probably wouldn't have used the words excluded from and opted for something more emphatic and worded everything differently.
[This message has been edited by Sirius (edited 04-28-2003).]
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| Posted by: Sirius at April 28, 2003, 6:38 pm | | Topic: Havanah Club Casino Forum: Winner Online |
They even said he didn't take sufficient risk!! He had a greater than 50% chance of losing everything if he bet it all in Baccarat.
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