| Posted by: slycin56 at September 2, 2003, 9:26 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
You know what? That *was* a little harsh on Bart, and I apologize to you, Bart, for that. I was getting a little irritated with his anti-GPWA comments, when this has never been a GPWA issue. It was only made that by the other anti-GPWA posters here.
And Dom, you're correct also. This is a player board, and this issue *is* a player issue, which is why those of us who believe CM and Abbott were in the wrong have been so ocal about it.
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| Posted by: dominique at September 2, 2003, 6:29 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Am I missing something here?
Isn't this a player forum?
To me that means that player opinions are what counts here.
What matters here is what players think of Sunnny and Bet2Gamble.
I apologize for being a party to hijacking this thread.
------------------
dominique
www.gamesandcasino.com
www.betonanything.info
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| Posted by: Wave at September 1, 2003, 9:54 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
"Since you're not a webmaster, nor a lawyer, nor do you have any experience in this whatsoever, I don't believe you're qualified in the least to comment on this. We can see that you're a CM supporter, but that doesn't make you qualified."
slycin's usual bad habit of argumentation- when things don't go in her favor; and it's the worst I can see amongst most of the arguments she's made.
"The rest of this stuff from GPWA is just politics and any player who can wade through this stuff can figure that out without any help."
It makes perfect sense, bart.
I am just a player who's been lurking WOL for 3 years only, hehe. I am not qualified to comment, I know I know.
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| Posted by: slycin56 at September 1, 2003, 6:55 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Bart, you're really getting in over your head here. I don't even understand what your point is about the copyright notice on my site - which is originally written by me, by the way.
Spear is 100% correct in his post. Since you're not a webmaster, nor a lawyer, nor do you have any experience in this whatsoever, I don't believe you're qualified in the least to comment on this. We can see that you're a CM supporter, but that doesn't make you qualified.
There are two bottom lines here -
1. Sunny PAID for that write-up, which gave them ownership rights to it, to do with as they pleased.
2. CM has no legal copyright claim to that write-up.
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| Posted by: bart at September 1, 2003, 4:14 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Got2Bet:
I've had all I can take about this bull****.
Sunny was wrong to use the information as presented by Bet2Gamble. They apologized. That should be the end of the story.
But it has degenerated into a farce where copyright infringement is being thrown about with the weight of a feather.
There are no unique elements in the data, from graphics to text to category headings, which could potentially mark this "collection" as unique and thus copyrightable. All of the information is Sunny's information.
There is a big difference between unique copy and copycat - and in this case Sunny copy-catted the method in which Bet2Gamble copy-catted their data.
Let me preface with the IMHO right up front.
I never thought I would give advice to Spear, but I am.
Stick to the ethics and leave the legal arguements to the lawyers. Joeyl is right. They did it twice to CM. Prior to that they stole HTML for Ca... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sofa_surfer at August 31, 2003, 10:49 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by slycin56:
For you Sofa-Surfer, since Mary chose to ignore the rest of my post and only focus on one sentence
LOL slycin, that's because that one sentence makes the rest of that post NULL and VOID.
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| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 4:43 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Good grief, all you know to do when you are involved in a discussion is spit tacks.
You know I am not going to respond to your
BS about my conduct unless I am going to expose the whole process of my elimination, starting two weeks befroe Montreal when you decided I had to go.
So you run around wol, besmirching my name at every opportunity, which seems to be whenever you don't know what else to say. You count on my finding this so distasteful that I quit the discussion, which you then portray as an admission of guilt. Works most of the time.
Go ahead and keep playing that game over and over and over again. One day my patience will run out.
Well done, you got me to stray from the topic, address your BS and lower myself to your level.
This is the last time I am honoring your sniping with a comment.
My observation stands - if what GoneGambling did for B2G, is extortion, than what the Casinomeister does for players is also extortion.
You le... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: slycin56 at August 31, 2003, 4:24 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Annette, I just saw your post at B2G -
Quote:
The implications that really bother me in this are:
If GG tries to mediate between Sunny and B2G, and Sunny refuses any kind of mediation by them, and GG then publicises the entire episode, if this is extortion, then it stands to reason that if the Meister mediates a player dispute, and the casino refuses to cooperate, and he puts it on a blacklist, he is also guilty of extortion.
If this were to play out the way the owner of GPWA wants, it would ruin any kind of player recourse.
1. Extortion is an attempt to force someone to give you money you don't deserve for whatever reason. I would have assumed you were ery clear on that since it's the reason you got kicked out of GPWA.
2. I can see what you're doing, and so can many others. Do NOT twist my words into something else, then claim that's what I'm saying. Your statement up there about what the GPWA owner wants is patently false, and you know that.
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| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 3:30 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Whether someone wants to mediate a dispute between a casino and an affiliate, or a dispute between a casino and a player, makes little difference.
If publication of misconduct as a result of refusal of mediation constitutes extortion, then this cannot be done on any level.
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| Posted by: slycin56 at August 31, 2003, 3:26 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
How did you come up with that??? It's not the same thing. Actually, Annette, I *know* you have a much better understanding of extortion than that, so I can only assume you threw this in here in an attempt to sidetrack the issue.
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| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 3:16 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
This is getting more and more interesting.
Theoretically then, if Abbot was practising extortion by publicising the misconduct by Sunny, because Sunny would not allow his mediation, then all the casino blacklists are extortion also, because they are mostly the result of casinos refusing mediation in player disputes.
That means that players will have no more recourse at all.
That will be the point where the industry gets so seedy that I will have no further dealings with it.
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| Posted by: slycin56 at August 31, 2003, 2:39 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of iolence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18
The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, iolence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
[This message has been edited by The Original Mary (edited 08-31-2003).][/B]
By your copied and pasted definition Mary, what do you call this?
Quote:
How about Sunny
purchases advertising with us, and at US$500 a month, I know Sunny can afford it
because Sunny advertises everywhere, and I won't mention this to anyone at
all. The last thing I want to do is to give you undue stress when you are
so close to giving birth.[/b]
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 2:34 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
It doesn't change the fact that he made a huge deal out of nothing.
Based on that definition, I'm not sure if what B2G did would be considered criminal as far as the methods he used for pressuring them for money. It might be. Good point. A prosecuter would have to make that call.
We've all had our say. I have nothing more to add or anymore time to rehash it.
I'll keep an eye out for the courtdate.
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 31, 2003, 2:14 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Speaking of blowing something out of proportion, here is the legal definition of "extortion":
EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of iolence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18
The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, iolence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
............................................
Some posters here have claimed that CM and Abbot are guilty of extortion. Whaddya think, CPA, has that been blown out of proportion? Abbot posting on his own site has the same weight as a threat of iolence? CM posting on multiple sites?
[This message has been edited by The Original Mary (edited 08-31-2003).]
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 1:48 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
So now the experienced webmasters are arguing that they don't know law, they rely on common sense
Yep, on BS infractions like this. Common sense is definately the way to go!
It's sooo...meaningless, it's hard to believe anyone would even bother to mention it.
You don't need a law degree to use common sense, so quit trying to make this ridiculous claim appear to be some major event that it isn't. That's the point.
Had they copied his themed template and put their website on it, we would be most likely be supportive.
It doesn't matter if you read up on anything. I still say after reading all your stuff that his case has so little merit that it would never make it to a trial to begin with.
The bottom line is.... there is only ONE way for ANYONE to know,{yourself included Your Honor}, and that's for him to FILE THE PAPERS. Period! Your personal interpretion does not count, nor does anyone else's here.
The truth of the matter is th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 31, 2003, 12:17 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
*Databases do not have to be registered every time they change; they have different treatment than other works. See the above link.
*Databases can contain content with another's copyright; see above link.
*Sunny paying for an article does not give them rights to reproduce it in perpetuity; it depends upon the contract terms. Most authors sell specific rights, such as "one time North American first serial rights" which means that the magazine may print the story once.
*Sunny paying for *one* review does not give them rights to all other webpages mentioning them. Or database records, which are not reviews.
So now the experienced webmasters are arguing that they don't know law, they rely on common sense and can't be bothered to read up on the law before publically slamming another webmaster.
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| Posted by: slycin56 at August 31, 2003, 10:47 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by bewitch:
Please DON'T kick me if I said something here as a player.
You all are ery experienced webmaster. You know the business and the copyright stuff.
I am a player and spend the money in a casino. If the casino mess up or didn't follow their words, I will be worried. Because I am afraid of it will come to me soon or later.
To me, no matter C.M. is greedy or not at first place, Sunny Group did say sorry and promise it won't happen again. BUT they use it AGAIN 3 months later. Maybe C.M. should just ask them to remove the material instead of asking money. But he did get promise from them. And Sunny Group didn't follow their promise.
I am being ery careful here after being burn by ladydream/goldbetting. So I won't play at a casino who didn't follow their promise.
Just my 2 cents as a PLAYER.
Bewitch, I understand your confusion about all this, but that material belonged to Sunny because they had paid for it, som... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 8:49 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Good for you, Bewitch.
Casinos whose affiliate programs do not treat their affiliates well are more likely to not treat their players well also.
Either you are honest and stick to your word, or you are not.
Sunny broke the promise not to do it again. That is all that counts in my opinion. Doing it in the first place is one thing. Saying you will not do it again and then doing so is another.
All the copyright law in the world will not make up for a broken promise, given after an admission of guilt.
Socks:
I know you do not represent the GPWA. I made the identical statement many places in times past. That did not prevent allegations that I did so without being authorized. Posting outside the GPWA or talking to members of the industry outside the GPWA is a slippery slope, make sure everyone always knows you are not speaking for the organization. Include a disclaimer on everything you say.
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| Posted by: bewitch at August 31, 2003, 8:30 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Please DON'T kick me if I said something here as a player.
You all are ery experienced webmaster. You know the business and the copyright stuff.
I am a player and spend the money in a casino. If the casino mess up or didn't follow their words, I will be worried. Because I am afraid of it will come to me soon or later.
To me, no matter C.M. is greedy or not at first place, Sunny Group did say sorry and promise it won't happen again. BUT they use it AGAIN 3 months later. Maybe C.M. should just ask them to remove the material instead of asking money. But he did get promise from them. And Sunny Group didn't follow their promise.
I am being ery careful here after being burn by ladydream/goldbetting. So I won't play at a casino who didn't follow their promise.
Just my 2 cents as a PLAYER.
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 8:17 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
The point is that the people here who are representing the GPWA are arguing that webmasters do not own any of the content on their sites.
No. Wrong again! This will make 3 times for you now. I don't know EXACTLY what the legal process is to determine true ownership. My comments were based on Mary's post and gives her the benefit of the doubt for the sake of argument as I clearly stated.
I AM arguing that in the specific case we are talking about here, {Regardless of legal parameters}, that what B2G did is petty, insignificant by any reasonable standards, and not worthy of the smear campaign he has initiated on Sunny Group.
PS:I AM NOT REPRESENTING THE GPWA IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM
They have not ask me to speak on their behalf. My sentiments are mine, and mine alone.
My membership with the GPWA has nothing to do with my position on this, so please do not continually try to make it appear that way.
Thank You.
[This message has been e... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: slycin56 at August 31, 2003, 8:12 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
For you Sofa-Surfer, since Mary chose to ignore the rest of my post and only focus on one sentence - here's my post from the first page, in its entirety -
Quote: Originally Posted by Bet2Gamble.com:
Sunny Sportsbook stole from Bet2Gamble.com by taking copyrighted material from our site
For CM, and anyone else unclear about copyright laws - http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ66.html
Quote:
For all online works other than computer programs and databases, the registration will extend only to the copyrightable content of the work as received in the Copyright Office and identified as the subject of the claim. The application for registration should exclude any material that has been previously registered or published or that is in the public domain. For published works, the registration should be limited to the content of the work asserted to be published on the date given on the application.
CM copied and pasted all his info from Sunny's websites makin... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: slycin56 at August 31, 2003, 8:05 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
You are one sick puppy, Annette. Are you capable of making a post without slamming me or GPWA in it? Do you think that impresses anyone worth impressing? Trust me, it doesn't.
If you all think that the casinos aren't watching all of this, think again. And regardless of how this discussion ends, they've gained some ery aluable information about who to trust or not trust; who has intelligent input here, and who doesn't; who's fair and who's not; and who to do business with and not do business with - and I can assure you it's not anyone who condones or practices greed and extortion.
Mary - you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Sunny paid for the "arrangement" which gives them ownership rights. And please tell us what's unique about CM's presentation? Many of us certainly don't see it.
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| Posted by: sofa_surfer at August 31, 2003, 8:04 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Original Mary:
Slycin,
you didn't read the first sentence of your quotation ery closely, did you? "For all online works other than computer programs and databases..."
"Other than" means "not computer programs and databases"
The page to which you refer does not apply to databases.
Care to find a page that does?
No response to this?
That some defend an operation that has blatantly copied someone elses work and presented it as their own without seeking permission is astounding.
The taunting/name-calling on the way is quite simply classless. Credit to B2G for not sinking to that level.
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| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 7:27 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Actually, I have been told that I own every word I ever wrote on GPWA forums, and I could achieve an injunction to have all my posts removed.
However, that would be petty and mean spirited and I am not doing it.
But that does point to your owning everything you write on any forum.
Just recently I witnessed someone having all her posts removed from a forum after being suspended.
But this is totally besides the point.
The point is that the people here who are representing the GPWA are arguing that webmasters do not own any of the content on their sites.
I need to set up a page for poker rooms - perhaps I will go and use Cindy's then.
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 7:21 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
Otherwise we can just all help ourselves to each other's content and use it in ads.
Purely from a legal standpoint, that is probably true in most cases.
Again, this is based on Mary's contention that the post she made applies to this kind of thing.
Just to reiterate what I said earlier. I'm not sure if it does, or doesn't apply.
My imput is based on agreeing with her that it does, for the sake of argument.
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 7:10 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
One follow up and I'm done with this! At least for today.
As a silly example that comes to mind, WHAT if Sunny Group said hey, that little phrase you wrote at WOL is kind of catchy.
What if they used that, or some ersion of that in an AD?
Do I now have the exclusive rights to those words because I wrote them?
Does WOL own them because they were first written on this database, at this site?
Does Sunny have ANY rights since it IS ABOUT THEM?
You get my drift.
You can reduce silly shxt like this to ridiculous claims which is what B2G has done. The infraction is negligable. Hardly worth mentioning, let alone persuing the way he has. I think any court would readily agree after learning ALL the facts.
That's been my common sense opinion, and I'm sticking to it!
Have a good Sunday folks. I hope your pics win!
I'm heading over to Sunny Sportsbook to place my bets!
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| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 7:01 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
If you are correct, what all this points out is that affiliates have no rights at all to anything on their sites unless it is filed, then apparently it is protected as long as at least 10% is original.
We better get to filing if this is true.
Otherwise we can just all help ourselves to each other's content and use it in ads.
I have seen several affiliate sites that have content I sure would like to use...
------------------
dominique
www.gamesandcasino.com
www.betonanything.info
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 6:40 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
LOL, I've made lots of good points, but you are blocking common sense out because you are trying to defend your buddy there.
Here are some good points and observations after reading Mary's post again.
________________________
Using your information Mary.
Quote:
Where all, or a substantial portion, of the material in the database represents copyrightable expression and it is being published or registered for the first time
The substantial portion of this copyrightable expression in his document belongs to Sunny Group, not B2G. I think a court would draw that conclusion as well.
Sunny could easily make the claim that he stole their intellectual property to compile the ad. That is “Substantially” what occurred. When people are working "TOGETHER", silly things like this should never come up.
Secondly, and again based on your information, a form would needed to be filled out, and formally registered in order to make any claim to... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dominique at August 31, 2003, 5:57 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Socks,
I have always known you to be ocal and you do like to be contrary. This can be a good thing, looking at things from arious points of iew.
So I have always appreciated your posts. Lately though you have taken to attacks and name calling instead of making points.
What happened?
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| Posted by: AmateurSleuth at August 31, 2003, 5:41 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Bet2Gamble.com:
Mary,
Your opinion is supported by our attorney, whose specialty is in intellectual property law and every other intellectual property law attorney we have contacted about this.
Everyone of them said that our case would be a slam dunk for us should it ever go to court.
C.M.
www.Bet2Gamble.com
And someone should believe anything you quote because you'd never "mis-quote", right?
And no, I won't stop talking about it!! This point is entirely relevant here. Aman who has showed himself to be a liar cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
You guys are always screaming all over WOL about how casinos lie and cheat, yet this person who is supposed to be a oice for the players, lies to them, and never admits it, and its okay with you. He is an affiliate to the casinos, just like any other portal owner, but that can be overlooked as well.
The same ones here who are so upset with portals ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The_CPA at August 31, 2003, 5:01 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
Everyone of them said that our case would be a slam dunk for us should it ever go to court.
I said it from the beginning.
Quit talking big, and take big action if it's a slam dunk. File the papers.
I got some news for you and your attorney. There ain't no such thing as a slam dunk in a courtroom on ANYTHING. Only a fool would make a statement like that to a client.
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| Posted by: The Original Mary at August 31, 2003, 12:48 am | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Slycin,
you didn't read the first sentence of your quotation ery closely, did you? "For all online works other than computer programs and databases..."
"Other than" means "not computer programs and databases"
The page to which you refer does not apply to databases.
Care to find a page that does?
Maybe this one:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ65.html#what
Take note that the copyright office allows for the registration of databases that:
Where all of the material in a database has been previously published, previously registered, or is in the public domain, the claim must be limited to “compilation” assuming the requisites of original selection, coordination, or arrangement are present. Where all, or a substantial portion, of the material in the database represents copyrightable expression and it is being published or registered for the first time, the claim could also extend to “text,” “revised text,”“a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Bet2Gamble.com at August 30, 2003, 10:49 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Mary,
Your opinion is supported by our attorney, whose specialty is in intellectual property law and every other intellectual property law attorney we have contacted about this.
Everyone of them said that our case would be a slam dunk for us should it ever go to court.
C.M.
www.Bet2Gamble.com
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| Posted by: The_CPA at August 30, 2003, 9:21 pm | | Topic: Sunny Theft of Bet2Gamble.com Property Forum: Winner Online |
Mary, you miss the point too obviously.
The legal aspect is laughable to begin with regardless of who may, or may not be at fault to any degree.
It's usless to try to explain "What is reasonable" to you people who can't, or in this case, refuse to use common sense.
Oops, I just copied Spears comments!
Hope he doesn't sue me!
------------------
O.G.S.
[This message has been edited by The_CPA (edited 08-30-2003).]
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