| Posted by: Gamerz at November 27, 2003, 7:23 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
No matter what they tell you, most casino's who practice this delayed payment, do so, because it is likely you will reverse and lose potentially all of your winnings. Tell it like it is CON! If you choose to delay payment, then do so, if that is your policy, but at least tell us the truth, as to the real reason.
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| Posted by: Jydeman at November 27, 2003, 2:51 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by mimmi
The Big problem is that you can reverse the cash out, I have lost all winning during the waiting period.My suggestion is that it should not be possibly to reverse the cash out, waiting 5 days is no problem as long as you gets paid.
The reason why casinos have waiting periods is because players generally lose more than they win after reversing.
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| Posted by: mimmi at November 27, 2003, 7:32 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
The Big problem is that you can reverse the cash out, I have lost all winning during the waiting period.My suggestion is that it should not be possibly to reverse the cash out, waiting 5 days is no problem as long as you gets paid.
As Mr.Vahe says if you cant wait 5 days for your money maybe you should quite gambling.
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| Posted by: gamblinboi at November 25, 2003, 9:26 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by ivalasvegas
Well, I've found an on-line casino that is "with" the times. Check out CRAPPYPOOPOO.com. Very easy to navigate and the sportsbooks is just like Vegas with future bets on NFL, NHL, NBA & MLB.
vivalasvegas
crikey, what a spammer!
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| Posted by: vivalasvegas at November 25, 2003, 4:27 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Well, I've found an on-line casino that is "with" the times. Check out PalmDesertCasino.com. Very easy to navigate and the sportsbooks is just like Vegas with future bets on NFL, NHL, NBA & MLB.
vivalasvegas
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| Posted by: caruso at November 21, 2003, 8:39 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vahe Baloulian
They are served by a special team of hosts, they have more financial tools at their disposal to manage their deposits, they have different playing habits, and, from our side, we don't mind covering the transaction fees for them and offer them a special service.
I would LOVE to know how much "Gold VIPs" lose.
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| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 21, 2003, 7:22 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
First, according to our experience, 5 days was and so far is an optimal waiting period for all players, including our VIPs, and us. Our data shows that more than 5 days does not benefit either side. Less than 5 days – we are testing it.
Second, only our Gold VIPs have a waiting period of 2 days. However with Gold VIPs we have special deals. If they require longer waiting period, and many of them do since they change their minds quite often, we accommodate them. As you can imagine, we don’t have as many Gold VIP members as we have VIP and non-VIP ones. They are served by a special team of hosts, they have more financial tools at their disposal to manage their deposits, they have different playing habits, and, from our side, we don't mind covering the transaction fees for them and offer them a special service.
I am not having an argument with you where the concept of “logic” would be relevant. There is not much logic in many statements here and I still try to deal with them without labelin... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KX at November 21, 2003, 6:05 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Jydeman
If this waiting period was a service to the player - how come you're punishing the VIP's by shortening the waiting period? Shouldn't you double it instead?
Right on target mate! Well Vahe, let's hear it. Are the VIPs the customers you want to treat worst?
Like so many other posters here I do trust CON to pay and to be fair however. I also appreciate the fact that you do "take the heat" and stand up here. But in this case the reasoning clearly lacks logic.
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| Posted by: RainFall at November 20, 2003, 11:36 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
You guys really need to lay off CON
Their business model is not one that caters to sharp bonus hunters. So what if they want to wait 5 days to pay you. Is that a freakin crime? No it's not
CON has paid 99.9999% of cashouts i'm pretty positive and has probably stiffed less players in a year than the average casino does in a month and they ahve 10x the userbase. If they did a stiffjob i bet they refunded deposits.
Vahe is providing a safe way to gamble online and they've taken a stance against bonus hunters. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! They don't steal your money they just ask you (or make you) not come back.
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| Posted by: caps at November 19, 2003, 4:59 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I agree with Mr. Baloulian that the issue has been pretty thoroughly etted here, and I do appreciate his willingness to engage the issue on these boards. To my mind, that does say a good bit, and positive good bit, about CON. There are obviously an awful lot of outfits in this industry that simply would have ignored the question posed in the first post.
As for me, I'd love to play CON if they'd just speed things up a bit.
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| Posted by: Devast at November 19, 2003, 4:55 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
My .02 on this is pretty simple. This thread has gone off into two topics and in my case they are related. CoN has a history of banning players who only play only with bonuses, and they are one of the slower payers of winners. In my case these two things irtually insure that I will be banned at some point The truth is there are a large number of reputable online casinos where you can be sure you will get paid, and plenty of those are willing to offer you bonuses if you are willing to meet their conditions. As a result, I play at CoN when they offer a bonus that I find attractive. Anytime I play without a bonus, I play exclusively at casinos that pay the fastest. In a sense, the speedy payout is the bonus I avail myself of when I'm not playing with any other type of bonus.
I like CoN, and they are undoubtably fair and invariably pay, but their slow payout insures that I do not play there if no bonus is involved.
Yours, soon to be banned at CoN...
Devast
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| Posted by: theguru at November 19, 2003, 4:01 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I feel for Vahe here as he graciously tries to answer all comers questions in a medium that usually leaves casino operators defenseless against attacks. I though, beleive that CON has the right to ban any player they wish and should continue to do this practice as they currently do. Some casinos, such as many RTG's and Playtechs will ban you only after a big win so that they may confiscate your winnings, CON takes the more ethical route and pays out all that is owed to a player, winnings and deposit and then makes a decision as to whether they wish to maintain their relationship with a given client. Although some may not beleive that they should be banned, they should take solice in the fact that they never had their winnings removed after being defined as a bonus abuser.
The thing that gets me with CON though is their 5 day payments. I know Vahe, you tried to defend them, but c'mon, even smaller casinos with a tenth of the staff can process a payment in 24 hours. And to claim that it is shee... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: hhcfreebie at November 19, 2003, 2:04 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
How about let us Neteller users be able to cash out in 2 days? Better yet, let players choose 1 or 5 days pending period.
If you don't like to process cashin daily, you can process cashin twice a week. Less work for the employee and faster payout for the players.
I think these are the easiest solution and everyone will be happy.
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| Posted by: Jydeman at November 19, 2003, 2:01 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Oh please! The waiting period is *never* in the interest of the player. I'm sure you more often than not benefit from players reversing cashouts + you save the transfer fees on a bunch of deposits/cashouts.
If this waiting period was a service to the player - how come you're punishing the VIP's by shortening the waiting period? Shouldn't you double it instead?
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| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 19, 2003, 1:18 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Those who deposit through Neteller and alike have no problems. Most players, at least ours, still use credit cards and often have a difficult time depositing because of their banks. They get upset with us thinking that we don't allow them to deposit because they won and cashed out. We can't control the banks but we can allow more time (5 days) to decide what they want to do. Some cancel their cash outs, others opt for receiving the money.
Another argument is that we keep the money so that the player who does not want to cancel but does not have the will to wait, goes ahead and cancels the cash out, which benefits the casino. Here, I said, it is in the player's hands. And I suggested that if the player cannot control the urge, he or she may need to look into their playing habits altogether.
Whether you really care how we run our casino or not, we do care about what you really think and we do benefit from the ideas put forward here.
I never said that the waiting period was... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: nirrad001 at November 19, 2003, 1:15 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Vahe: "nirrad001: based on my experience it is not "simply ridiculous" to say that members do benefit from this waiting period. If you run your own successful business in a competitive environment, you must know that no policy will survive unless it carries at least some benefit for your customers."
Hence the question, "Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?" I majored in Buisiness Management and I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject. The statements you have made appear to be based on a slippery slope.....Post Hoc - also called post hoc ergo proctor hoc. Greek for 'after the fact, therefore because of the fact' - it occurs when a temporal relation between two events is assumed to prove that the first one caused the second one.
Examples:
"Vahe was running the day before he had a heart attack. Running must have killed him."
"Vahe had a accination shot the day before he showed a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caps at November 19, 2003, 12:04 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I have absolutely no interest in being contentious -- but trust me, I can read, and I can read carefully. But I don't follow the logic of your argument. If I am understanding correctly, you seem to be suggesting that an extended payout period benefits players (or at least those who make direct-banking deposits, rather than those who use online wallets) because this permits them to continue to play , if they choose (via a reversal), during the several-day period following a cashout -- whereas, if you were to simply cash them out immediately, the money would be tied up in the banking system for some period of time, and they would not be able to play at all (if, that is, they don't have access to other funds in the interim). Although you don't really explicate it this way, this is what I understand you to be saying.
Fine, but (i) I don't see how this line of thinking has any application to the online wallet player (those who use Neteller and the like), and (ii) isn't the answer, for the player w... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 19, 2003, 10:15 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Every person speaks from his or her own experience. My experience comes from dealing with thousands of players. So far, more players were complaining about not being able to deposit than about waiting period.
It is naive to think that we can ignore the interests of our players and continue to be the largest online casino. It is naive to think that we can sustain our numbers simply through advertising and not through player retention. And it is naive to think that "business sense" does not include what's good for the player.
More specific:
nirrad001: based on my experience it is not "simply ridiculous" to say that members do benefit from this waiting period. If you run your own successful business in a competitive environment, you must know that no policy will survive unless it carries at least some benefit for your customers.
zrapture: good points and I am pushing for both of them to be implemented.
caps: I didn't blame players. I ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caps at November 18, 2003, 10:05 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I was going to be polite and remain silent on this -- but I really couldn't follow the logic of Mr. Baloulian's response. He seems to be suggesting, on the one hand, that the delay is designed to help players by permitting them to buy right back in without running into banking problems (though I'm not sure what those banking problems are). But on the other hand, he seems to suggest that the players are actually at fault for buying right back in (through a reversal) because they lack the discipline to wait out the payout period. I'm not quite sure how these points line up together in his argument, but, in any event, it seems to me to miss the point -- one of the benefits that industry leaders are now offering players is close-to-real-time choice. They play; they are able to cash out; they are able to get their money in a matter of hours. If they want to put it right back in, they can. Alternatively they can take their bankrolls elsewhere -- though in my case, knowing that I'll be able to get it out again... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Gamblegirl at November 18, 2003, 8:13 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vahe Baloulian
There are many reasons not to cut the waiting period and one of the most compelling ones is the difficulty to deposit faced by many. Players get irritated when after winning and cashing out they are unable to deposit because of their banks’ restrictions. Their immediate reaction is – I won and now you don’t let me deposit and play because you are afraid that I will win again. When faced with the waiting period, players say - I won and you keep my money so that I will cancel my cash out.
Now, none of us has any control over the banks and keeping the waiting period intact will eventually benefit players (no difficulty with buying chips) and us (less processing fees for accepting back money that has just been cashed out). On the other hand, the players have control over canceling or not canceling their cash out during the waiting period. If you can’t control your spending habits, you should re-evaluate your decision to gamble altogether.
Most ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: zrapture at November 18, 2003, 12:13 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Vahe, .. Two Questions..
-If it is possible to just block players from bonuses then why ban anyone? Why not just ban them from promos and bonuses. You have no games good enough to give the player an advantage. So what can you lose by keeping those account active?
-Why do you also keep those players banned at CON from playing at pacific poker? They are totally different games in which the same bonus hunting rules would not apply. Isn't more players better as far as poker rooms are concerned?
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| Posted by: tonyd at November 17, 2003, 5:12 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Vahe,
I started this thread because I honestly think the CON cashout policy is antiquated in today's environment. With the current ecash solutions there is no alid reason to hold the player money for more than 24 hours. It is obvious that your casino does this for its own benefit to the detriment of players.
Speaking for myself, I have only played at CON 3 or 4 times this year. In each case it took a bonus offer to entice me to deposit. In contrast, I have played at iNetbet in excess of 50 times sometimes with a bonus but most often without. The major difference in my play habits are the cashout times. iNetbet almost always pays me within 24 hours, CON takes at least a week and twice it took 2 weeks. I feel that I can do equally well on my play at either place.
I am not a high roller and play mostly for enjoyment. It is not enjoyable to wait a week or more to get paid. I feel that there are many others like me who play elsewhere to avoid the wait.
I hope you n... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: nirrad001 at November 17, 2003, 2:59 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
McDonalds deals with millions of people daily. I wonder how many customers they would have if they waited a week to give them their change? Or if they banned customers for taking advantage of the buy one/get one free double cheeseburgers too often? The most obvious reason for the wait is so that the money can draw interest. To say that this is in the players' best interest is simply ridiculous. To say you have millions of returning depositors is IMO a huge stretch. When it boils right down to the crux of the matter, you're going to do whatever you can get by with (plus a little bit extra). I have banned CON from my playlist until either they lose some weight or increase the size of their britches.
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| Posted by: joeyl at November 17, 2003, 2:12 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Hello Vahe, all technicalities aside with payment times i would expect the relevant managers to follow the same procedure you go by when it comes to blocking players.
If not why not?
My humble opinion is test that out and knock the guessing game on the head before your firm gets a reputation for being a pain in the ain.
Cheers, be well.
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| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 17, 2003, 1:49 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Casino, or any other business, can never have "enough" players.
Theory is useful when making decisions and testing the theory is essential. If we see that we will gain more players and players will stay longer because of the change, we will make it. What you are saying may sound obvious to you. Our practice, since we deal with millions of players, may or may not confirm what's obvious to you. We may not be the best for you and for the millions of others we may be. That's normal.
We've never jumped to conclusions without careful testing and we are not going to ignore the realities of life.
Now, I didn't understand - do you want to get banned or not? Send me your email if you do
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| Posted by: hhcfreebie at November 17, 2003, 1:30 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
To me, CON does offer a good deal. They have good reputation, fair game and good promotion. Does that mean CON is the best caino out there? Nope.
Their biggest weakness is their slow payment. 5-7 days is considered one of the longest pending period in the industry today.
In the short run, you might consider that with a long pending period, players are more likely to reverse their cashin and loose them all. Also the process fee would be cut down with less transactions. It seems all make "business sense" but you have to look at the bigger picture.
If players loose most of the time, they will NOT come back. By processing their cashout faster, you give players a sense that they can win. This is one of the major reason why people choose land base casinos over internet casinos.
Also a lot of players, me included, will simply play a centain amount of money per month on different casinos. It's just too boring to play the same games over and over. If I would play $2000 a month, I'll... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 17, 2003, 1:23 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
This is in regards to accounts closed in connection with a bonus play.
I have reviewed cases of those who wrote to me.
I would like to mention that although we are dealing with thousands of players and mistakes are possible, we don’t take them lightly and ask you to contact us at manager@casino-on-net.com whenever you think that the action taken in regards to your membership was not justified.
Back to your cases. I don’t think we should have blocked your accounts and I am discussing the possibility to re-open them with the relevant managers.
At the same time, I think we should restrict some of you from participating in promotions for a while. Although you don’t do anything wrong and don’t break the rules, the only action we see from you is during promotions, when the House is at disadvantage. Yes, we organize and run these promotions to thank players for their non-bonus play and we expect players to take advantage of them. At the same time, these promotions ar... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 17, 2003, 11:21 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
OK. Back to the original topic. As far as being attractive or not, one has to look at overall picture. Apparently, there are a millions of players who rightly consider what we offer as a ery good deal, if not the best one. This does not mean though that there is no room for improvement.
I have got the ball rolling and, as you will appreciate, these kind of decisions are not made overnight.
I have to say that we did consider shortening the waiting period some time ago and found that we don’t need to make any changes. However, since you raised this question, we will run the necessary tests again and will determine if it makes business sense to cut the time.
Just because other casinos are doing something is not good enough reason for us to do it as well. Others made and make many miscalculated decisions and even repeated our mistakes because they thought if we were doing it – it must have been right.
There are many reasons not to cut the waiting period and one of the m... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caps at November 17, 2003, 6:29 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I think what he said in an earlier post is that he intends to raise the question generally with management. Again, if this silliness with player-banning were to be resolved and eliminated (recognizing, of course, that every casino has the right to protect itself against REAL bonus abusers), and if CON were to bring itself current with the market in terms of payout time, I would find the place relatively attractive, as I think the games are quite fair. But at present, it's just not attractive.
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| Posted by: Gamblegirl at November 17, 2003, 3:48 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by tonyd
First let me say that I think CON is absolutely fair in their games and that I think they have one of the best reputations of any online casino.
I have never been worried about not being paid and my cahsouts have always shown up about a week after being requested. This is also where I think CON is behind the times.
With the payment solutions available today (Neteller, Firepay, etc.) there is no legitimate reason for a cashout to take a week. Payments SHOULD show up in my Neteller or Firepay account in less than 24 hours.
I know this is possible because many casinos now routinely pay out much quicker than a week.
Some personal examples are:
iNetbet - less than 24 hours
Sci Fi - 24 hours
Fortune Lounge - 2 to 3 days
Intercasino - hours
Lasseters - less than 24 hours
My challenge to CON is to compete with the best and to process payments in less than 24 hours.
How about it... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 17, 2003, 3:20 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I received Tropicana's info and will reply soon.
Bewitch, can't find yours. Please resend to ahe@casino-on-net.com even if you don't want your account re-opened. I just want to see if and where we made a mistake.
Thanks,
Vahe
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| Posted by: bewitch at November 15, 2003, 7:49 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I will suggest you email Vahe and let him see what's going on here. Hope you will get your money back.
Casino-on-net, You need to clear this out. I respect your business decision but this is a little bit too much....
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| Posted by: tropicana at November 15, 2003, 7:42 am | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I am regular player in Casino on net, Reef Club and Pacific Poker. They were my favourite casinos and poker room.I never did anything contrary to the rules. I got some bonuses from them, but I am not bonus hunter, I played a lot. And I am high limit player in their poker room. I play there without any bonus.
I got this email:
Dear Member,
This is John McNally, Operations Manager at Cassava Enterprises Ltd
According to your Agreement with us, we reserve the right to terminate
your
membership, at any time and for any reason, at our sole discretion.
This is to inform you that we have made a decision to terminate your
Cassava Casino's membership.
This is because we found you to be abusing our generosity with regards
to our bonus's.
Please refrain from opening new accounts with Casino-on-Net and any of
Cassava's
casinos, as your gaming action is not welcome.
This decision is prompted by your account acti... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: bewitch at November 14, 2003, 7:49 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Hi, I just got back from a Girl's Night Out. Sorry about the delay.
Vahe, I just sent you my account ID with CON. Hope you get it.
I also received an email from you: "A Reminder from Casino-on-Net" about the special bonus tomorrow! Please don't send the reminder if you don't want players to take the bonus.
I have no problem with whatever you review about my account. I did take bonus before because you kept sending me the reminder and give me on your OWN. But if you don't like players take the bonus, please don't even offer it or email to reminder people. It's like you advister the sale on supermarket newsletter and tell the customer "sorry, we don't like your business. Please don't come here shopping again."
Have a nice weekend!!!
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| Posted by: bewitch at November 14, 2003, 3:48 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
Okay. I don't want to start a fight here. Just post what I got because it's first time ever happened to me.
First, They have right not to accept my business. It's a business. I respect their decision. (Even it hurt my feeling... LOL) If they really think I am bonus abuser, Just let it be.
Second, I am not new to 888.com. I played there from May until July. I didn't like the 5 days pending cashout policy. So I didn't go back until few days ago. Deposit $310 w/o bonus and withdrawal $360 (Yes, bet on "0" few times. LOL) I did get 2 times of $5 bonus because I answer the question at email (15 slots) and a special event at CON. Then I went back for the blackjack attack event. Doing well at first ($1) then boom I lost it all. Well, it's gambling.
Third, I did receive sign up bonus, Neteller/Firepay/Electrical Check bonus before. It's at May or june, I think. I email them and ask them to change my email this time and also asked them to resend me the newsltter.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vahe Baloulian at November 14, 2003, 2:36 pm | | Topic: CON behind the times? Vahe please respond Forum: Winner Online |
I just returned to the office and see that paranoia hit this board again ;-)
Just a reminder: we don't block winners. Casinos cannot exist without winners. Blocking is a serious step and is not taken lightly. If we block every player who wins, be it $100 or $100,000, we will be out of players in no time.
I don't know Bewitch's history with 888.com and can't comment on this particular situation. However, if s/he does not mind the publicity, I will be happy to review the case and post my findings here after I receive his/her Member info. It can be sent to manager@888.com, attn: Vahe.
As to our Cash Out policy - the main theme of this thread - I will review it tomorrow with our management and will inform you here.
Now it is almost midnight in Europe and I will read your comments tomorrow.
Good luck to you all!
Vahe
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