| Posted by: Emily iNetBet at February 19, 2004, 2:34 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Hello to everyone.
Just a quick line to say thank you to every one that participated in this particular discussion, we got there in the end.
With continued efforts such as this from both sides we will certainly together, bring this Industry into the 21st century.
Alan asked me to also thank everyone for the kind words, he is my second in command and is, as you have alluded, capable of attending to any issues in my absence.
Xianna, please drop me a mail when you have a minute and I will attend to your account, in the mean time do not worry you will not be precluded from any promos.
My ery best to everyone.
Kind regards.
Emily
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| Posted by: Xianna at February 18, 2004, 9:40 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Emily iNetBet
I am sorry but this is simply not the case, we do not put any money into peoples accounts that are not at zero, or at the ery most, as in this particular case, in an account with just a couple of dollars.
I have 3 cents in my account that just sits there. I can't seem to change it into a cashable number.
Will I still be eligible for iNetBet gifts? I promise to read the terms and conditions!
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| Posted by: cipher at February 18, 2004, 6:21 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by ohdreampop
That was a nice move by INetBet to give partial compensation to this player for his first royal. I'm sure he'll be back.
As well he should be and as I will be, in light of the common sense attitudes that I've seen displayed by all parties involved. Good Job Alan and Emily.
Cipher
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| Posted by: caps at February 18, 2004, 5:12 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
I second ohdreampop's point regarding Alan's helpfulness. He's handled a couple of things for me quite nicely, including one on which I was giving him a touch of grief. Quite professional and capable.
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| Posted by: ohdreampop at February 18, 2004, 3:41 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
I'd also like to note that Alan is by far the most helpful CSR I ahve dealt with to date. He recently made an exception for me (because I'm a ery regular player) on a rule that changed that I was unaware of. What other casino does that?
That was a nice move by INetBet to give partial compensation to this player for his first royal. I'm sure he'll be back.
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| Posted by: hhcfreebie at February 18, 2004, 3:25 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
That's another classic act from Inetbet! No wonder it's numero uno for so long!
Even when the player iolate their T & Cs, they still compensate the player to his satisfication. There is nothing more I could ask!
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| Posted by: ma23 at February 18, 2004, 3:15 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Hi,
I want to inform you that INetBet mailed me that they put 500$ (instead of 50$ or 1000$) into my account. That settles this issue.
I want to thank you for taking part in this interesting discussion and I want to thank Emily for actively engaging in settling this matter. It's a good sign when a casino shows this engagement. Thanks again for all good points that were brought up.
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| Posted by: max at February 17, 2004, 10:05 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by joeyl
... why do you not comment on these things Max? Is it a personal decision or does it come from above?
Good question. For the most part it's just evolved that way but I suppose the main reason is that I think the boards are best served when I function as "forum manager" and not as "local expert on whatever". There are many talented and knowledgable people included in our membership and having a place to discuss the topics at hand seems a far better service than having a place to discuss Max's opinions on said topics.
As I see it there's also a conflict-of-interest question involved: if I comment on stuff then I get involved in it and if I get involved in it then how can I honestly claim that everyone is being given the same opportunity? It gets ugly fast and to what end? My input wouldn't matter that much anyway because many of the people here are equally or better qualified to discuss the issues.
FWIW ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: joeyl at February 17, 2004, 3:18 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Emily iNetBet
The 10 times cash out rule will remain.
We shall include a link to our promotional rules within the email notification of the offer.
There will also be a facility for each player to refuse these gifts should they so wish.
The terms and conditions will be amended to ensure there is total clarity surrounding the free money gifts and will include the suggestions that have made here.
Regards
Emily
Are you going to bung Ma a few quid too?
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| Posted by: joeyl at February 17, 2004, 2:52 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Off topic)
Quote:
Max - I'm not commenting on the details of this issue one way or the other, that's not my purpose here
As you mention it it is half appropriate to ask why do you not comment on these things Max? Is it a personal decision or does it come from above?
just curious
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| Posted by: Diomedes at February 17, 2004, 2:23 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Emily InetBet quote:
Caruso has elaborately and rather cleverly painted the worst case scenario, no doubt to lend gravitas to his earlier argument, what with $5 in a $70 in credit account, not receiving a mail and then forgetting your Casino balance, quite a string of events.
This elaborately and cleverly painted worst case scenario is entirely possible and if it did occur it would negatively impact every player's perception of the industry's fairness.
Would you (Emily) allow $5 in free money to stand in the way of a player collecting a $20,000 win?
caruso quote:
But then, most everything the majority of online casinos seem to do should be enough to cure just about anyone of the desire to gamble.
Sadly, correct......
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| Posted by: max at February 17, 2004, 11:07 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
I just want to add a little note in the sidebar here. From what I can see Emily is trying pretty hard to be as reasonable and level-headed as possible throughout this. I'm not commenting on the details of this issue one way or the other, that's not my purpose here, I'm just saying that she's being good about discussing it and so should everyone else. So please keep it respectable. That's it!
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| Posted by: NewbieDoobieDo at February 17, 2004, 10:57 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Emily iNetBet
We have been operating this system for approaching two years, yes there have been some people that had not bothered to read the terms, but let me assure you it would only take one hand to count them all on. All of these were satisfied amicably.
I'd be willing to wager (pun intended) that on this board alone you have AT LEAST 2 hands and a bunch of toes. Most people lose the money and have no reason to complain even if they didn't know. It's when the s**t (er, royal) hits the fan when all the hands and toes will pop up (including some unmentionable fingers from some I'm sure )
Like I said .... you're right ... but is it the right thing to do?
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| Posted by: Emily iNetBet at February 17, 2004, 10:09 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Hello again to everyone,
OK, I have taken on board all the comments here, firstly let me make it quite clear that I do not necessarily agree with some of the criticisms being levelled, I fear that we are being painted in a somewhat unfavourable light for reasons other that the way we conduct and operate our business, that however is another issue and not for this thread.
Let me endeavour to bring this rather strange episode (we are after all being castigated for giving away free money, which ever way you slice it) to a satisfactory close.
The fact is, five dollars is not the norm that we send out, it is the minimum.
‘ma23’ could not have hit a Royal without the free money that he received, as the minimum play required was five dollars. It was also his seventh such gift.
We have been operating this system for approaching two years, yes there have been some people that had not bothered to read the terms, but let me assure you it would only take one ha... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at February 17, 2004, 12:47 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
"I am sorry but this is simply not the case, we do not put any money into peoples accounts that are not at zero, or at the ery most, as in this particular case, in an account with just a couple of dollars."
Thank you for explaining that, Emily but as you can see here there are definite problems associated with this free gift and the x10 rule, and only a fool would disregard that from a management point of iew. Some useful suggestions have been made here.
I don't believe you fall into the "fool" management category - you have proved on several occasions at WOL that you do your best to run a fair operation and know what you are doing.
Don't dismiss what your players are trying to tell you here in the hope of sorting this irritating hassle out.
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| Posted by: NewbieDoobieDo at February 16, 2004, 6:03 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
LOL .. I've lost - zero'd out - at Inetbet every time I have played there (except the ery first) both with and without bonuses. I have received the little $5 bonus, er, "gift" numerous times. I always considered it like a gift (kind of like CON's "raffle every 2 weeks). I always lost it as well (as I'm sure 99% of those that get the $5 do) ....... but I NEVER even considered the fact it was basically worthless. I've lost a $500-$600 over 5-6 months and figure, Gee, how nice ... they send me a little trifle as appreciation for my donation.
Point is, I ALWAYS read T&C's when it involves deposits, bonuses & WR's .... but never could imagine needing to do that for a $5 "gift." Who wudda thought.
Now I will know to "RTS" (return to sender) next time I'm given a "gift" from Inetbet.
Inetbet is completely correct (rules be rules) in not paying the $1K but sometimes when you clearly look at it from the other side you just migh... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: BaDaBoom at February 16, 2004, 5:11 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Emily iNetBet
I am sorry but this is simply not the case, we do not put any money into peoples accounts that are not at zero, or at the ery most, as in this particular case, in an account with just a couple of dollars.
Caruso has elaborately and rather cleverly painted the worst case scenario, no doubt to lend gravitas to his earlier argument, what with $5 in a $70 in credit account, not receiving a mail and then forgetting your Casino balance, quite a string of events.
We mail every player letting them know exactly what their current balance is and what the amount of the free money was.
We have been giving these monthly gifts for almost two years now and they continue to be welcomed by all our players, this whole situation is being misconstrued.
We do not give money to our players other than to say a thank you for their continued support; there is no ulterior motive, no master plan to reduce our odds. This is free money ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ma23 at February 16, 2004, 4:42 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
First of all, thanks to Emily for taking the time to post here.
If it's okay I'd rather post here instead of mailing.
Let me recapitulate my experience: I play, I lose, I play, I lose, I get e-mail with a free bonus (no disclaimer of restrictions, no link, nothing to make me think of anything else than it's free money). It's small money, so am I supposed to check out the terms&conditions if there is something special? I don't think many would do that, especially without a hint. Then I continue play. Should I think that I'm suddenly restricted to some win-limit after playing with much more money when it wouldn't have been a problem to win big before. Again I don't think so. When I lose I don't realise that there is this limit.
You can see in this thread that there are many regular player who haven't been aware of this rule.
Now zrapture made my following point before me. Of course, there aren't many players who complain because most times this bonus is blown in s... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caruso at February 16, 2004, 4:00 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
I've had a few $5 freebies myself, and I admit I also wasn't aware of the max cashout rule.
This rule is silly, player-unfriendly and should be ditched - and the player should be paid his royal. How disappointing this must be. Royals hit about once every 45,000 hands. To then not get paid when it DOES finally hit must be enough to cure just about anyone of the gambling bug. Kind of counter productive for the casino, one might say.
But then, most everything the majority of online casinos seem to do should be enough to cure just about anyone of the desire to gamble.
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| Posted by: zrapture at February 16, 2004, 3:39 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Emily,
I've played at your casino many times and have lost everything almost everytime, hence I have gotten this little bonus more then one time. I was never aware if the 10x term that not suprisngly is not included in the email advertising the free "gift". Normally I just put the $5 on one hand of Video Poker. So unwittingly I was playing Vidoe Poker with about a 20% House Advantage that you have created by this rule.
If you can't afford to give a $5 gift, DON'T! Most casinos don't, no biggie. It may be true that most of your players like the $5 gift and haven't complained. THATS BECAUSE 90% OF THEM DIDNT REALIZE THEY WOULDNT GET PAID IF THEY HIT BIG! Of course the only complaints will be from the select few who hit big, only a few will complain, cause only a few will get screwed.
This thread is evidence that close to 100% of more experienced players who are more likely to check for hidden terms were unaware of the 10x rules. So you know that the majority of t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: cipher at February 16, 2004, 12:32 pm | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caps
TO ALL CASINO OPERATORS WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
Please direct all future "free money" awards otherwise designated for Cipher's account to caps' account, as caps tends to enjoy childish B.S, particularly when it involves "free money."
And in the mind of the mooch, hope, burns eternal. Enjoy caps.
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| Posted by: caps at February 16, 2004, 11:55 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
[QUOTE=cipher][QUOTE=Emily iNetBet]
"This industry is still in its conceptual stage of infancy"
Quote:
I couldn’t disagree more. We're talking about a multi-billion dollar adult gaming industry. This "FREE MONEY" non-sense is nothing short of childish B. S. and it's exactly the type of thing that will keep this industry in a self-perpetuated quagmire for years to come. Have a good one.
TO ALL CASINO OPERATORS WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
Please direct all future "free money" awards otherwise designated for Cipher's account to caps' account, as caps tends to enjoy childish B.S, particularly when it involves "free money."
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| Posted by: bstitt at February 16, 2004, 11:45 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Emily iNetBet
If a player reads our current rules there can be no ambiguity as to the exact amount he or she is entitled to request a withdrawal for. They quite clearly state that the maximum cash out is 10 times the free money received.
Thanks for responding.
Suppose a player deposits $50 into his or her account immediately AFTER a $5 free money gift is deposited (bringing the balance to $55). Then, the player plays JorB and hits a royal flush on the first try. The player continues playing JorB until he satisfies the wagering requirement for the $5 free money. How much is he or she allowed to withdraw? I read your T&C's. The answer is not clear to me.
My point is that I can not fully understand the rules regarding free money by only reading the T&C's.
Quote: Originally Posted by Emily iNetBet
As to your suggestion that we should offer the option to players to refuse free money, well ple... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ma23 at February 16, 2004, 10:41 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Seems like other regular players didn't know this rule, too.
I've received some bonus like this before, but that money was soon gone, so no issue.
Just one comment to collys posts:
I accept that you have little sympathy for someone who checks the terms and conditions loosely, but you argue that it would be a disadvantage for players who adjust their play. If you play a truely fair game how much do you lose in expected alue? It's just that you waste some time playing 1 cent ideopoker (5 cent royal = 200$ = too much). That's hardly in the interest of the player and the casino.
And you say I took the bonus. No, it was given to me. I did nothing to get the bonus, and there was no disclaimer that some restrictions belong to this "gift", like when you redeem a coupon at the cashier and you can read something like "You have to playthrough the bonus 15 times before cashing out".
Why the casino is in danger when I get 5$ and has to limit the win after I pl... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ohdreampop at February 16, 2004, 10:31 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
After reading Emily's point of iew, I agree with her about the non-changing of the rules. However, caruso's point needs to be addressed further. Although it is a worst case scenario, other less severe scenarios can be just as heartbreaking (like this 1k royal). Honestly, I never realized that a $5 freebie could be worth anything. I've received these and never read the terms... mostly because I would never have imagined that $5 could MAKE more than 10x anyway! When a customer such as the original poster is surprised by luck, it's a damn shame that he can't cash out. Rules are rules, but I'd say that over 90% of the receivers of $5 freebies lose it in under a minute.
-- ohdreampop
[posting this from the art library in case my IP looks weird]
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| Posted by: cipher at February 16, 2004, 10:19 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
[QUOTE=Emily iNetBet]Joeyl,
"This industry is still in its conceptual stage of infancy"[QUOTE]
I couldn’t disagree more. We're talking about a multi-billion dollar adult gaming industry. This "FREE MONEY" non-sense is nothing short of childish B. S. and it's exactly the type of thing that will keep this industry in a self-perpetuated quagmire for years to come. Have a good one.
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| Posted by: Emily iNetBet at February 16, 2004, 10:09 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
I am sorry but this is simply not the case, we do not put any money into peoples accounts that are not at zero, or at the ery most, as in this particular case, in an account with just a couple of dollars.
Caruso has elaborately and rather cleverly painted the worst case scenario, no doubt to lend gravitas to his earlier argument, what with $5 in a $70 in credit account, not receiving a mail and then forgetting your Casino balance, quite a string of events.
We mail every player letting them know exactly what their current balance is and what the amount of the free money was.
We have been giving these monthly gifts for almost two years now and they continue to be welcomed by all our players, this whole situation is being misconstrued.
We do not give money to our players other than to say a thank you for their continued support; there is no ulterior motive, no master plan to reduce our odds. This is free money for goodness sake, plain and simple.
Regar... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: gamblinboi at February 16, 2004, 9:38 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso
Ironically enough, one of the MOST contentious issues I have ever seen is currently unfolding elsewhere. Unsurprisingly enough, RTG is at the bottom of it.
iNetbet has been the best RTG for a long time - I can testify to the fact. All that is as indisputable as it is irrelevant to the matter.
I have $70 in my account; unbeknownst, I receive a $5 freebie - I haven't checked my Email; I log in again, play some dollar VP, and I hit a $20,000 royal.
Max cashout is $120.
With me?
The freebie serves no purpose other than to increase the house advantage by cutting out large payouts on popular, olatile games. The actual extent of the increase will depend on the size of the freebie and the denomination played.
Hm, although this is an extreme case, Caruso does make a alid point. This hypothetical player would be ery screwed.. I think until a solution is found (Eg, "click here to accept t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at February 16, 2004, 9:33 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
"I have $70 in my account; unbeknownst, I receive a $5 freebie - I haven't checked my Email; I log in again, play some dollar VP, and I hit a $20,000 royal.
Max cashout is $120."
My God - now there's food for thought! Is this correct Emily???
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| Posted by: caps at February 16, 2004, 9:31 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
I've received these freebies from iNetBet (in amounts as high as $100), and, frankly, before reading this thread, hadn't known about the 10x cashout limitation. I think, though, that each time I received the freebie, I'd zeroed out my account. I just then played it as no-risk, free money (and obviously never won enough with it to encounter the cash-out limitation).
One way to avoid the problem would be for the casino to provide the freebies only to those with zero balances in their accounts at the time (while at the same time providing an email reminder of, and link to, the Ts and Cs). If, having been given notice, the player then deposits his/her own funds before exhausting or cashing out the free money, then it seems to me that the imposition of the limitation would be significantly less onerous.
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| Posted by: caruso at February 16, 2004, 9:21 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Quote:
Well it appears, perhaps due to the relative lack of contentious topics of late, that this forum has escalated to a new level.
Ironically enough, one of the MOST contentious issues I have ever seen is currently unfolding elsewhere. Unsurprisingly enough, RTG is at the bottom of it.
iNetbet has been the best RTG for a long time - I can testify to the fact. All that is as indisputable as it is irrelevant to the matter.
I have $70 in my account; unbeknownst, I receive a $5 freebie - I haven't checked my Email; I log in again, play some dollar VP, and I hit a $20,000 royal.
Max cashout is $120.
With me?
The freebie serves no purpose other than to increase the house advantage by cutting out large payouts on popular, olatile games. The actual extent of the increase will depend on the size of the freebie and the denomination played.
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| Posted by: Emily iNetBet at February 16, 2004, 8:45 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Bstitt
I came on this board to answer the concerns of one specific player, if you note I have not answered some of the other inflammatory posts that have been made.
I will however endeavour to answer your questions.
If a player reads our current rules there can be no ambiguity as to the exact amount he or she is entitled to request a withdrawal for. They quite clearly state that the maximum cash out is 10 times the free money received.
Your point as to the rules covering the eventuality of there already being an amount in their account, albeit below what is required to place a wager, is an area we shall look into. That does not however alter the facts of this thread, had this player read the rules he would have known the amount he was entitled to. At the ery least, would there have been any uncertainty in his mind he should have emailed support, an action that I read on WOL is advocated by most of the regular and experienced posters.
I am though qui... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caps at February 16, 2004, 8:00 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Eerrr, I don't know the answer to the substantive question here, and I think it's a fair one (that is, how to deal with a situation in which the "gift"/"prize" is placed into an account that already contains player funds). But I have to say that the threatening tone is pretty unjustified here. iNetBet, in my experience (and I daresay others'), is one of the truly exemplary operations out there. It has consistently appeared here to respond to questions, including difficult ones, and has almost always been shown to be in the right (remember Andrewwwww?). So I think it has earned a presumption of respect and fair play, instead of implied threats. Just one guy's take.
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| Posted by: bstitt at February 16, 2004, 7:44 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Emily,
I notice you did not respond to my questions yet.
I think you (and INetBet) should seriously consider allowing players to reject the "free gift" money which you often deposit into players accounts. Don't you want your players to follow your T&C's? If you do, then you should give them the ability to reject the "free gift" which is also known as a "prize".
According to your T&C's, a player should not accept a prize unless the player fully understands the terms & conditions which are associated with it. But you don't give the player the ability to reject your "prizes" which are also known as "gifts"(your word) or "free money". I hope you are not going to say that a "free money gift" is not a prize. We can make this a terminology debate, if you want.
Your T&C's do not address the situation when a player withdraws money from an account with a combination of the player's own... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Emily iNetBet at February 16, 2004, 7:06 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
Joeyl,
Thank you for your support, your point is well noted, please allow me the time to consider this.
Gamblinboi,
Yes, good point, the last thing we want is any of our players to think they have won, only to then hear the bad news.
We always put a reminder on our Newsletter to 'please familiarise yourself with any rules that may pertain to individual players', however as you say not every one bothers, a direct link may be another safeguard.
This industry is still in its conceptual stage of infancy; it is continually evolving, hopefully for the better. We cannot improve our service without receiving this type of input from our players.
Thank you for your feedback.
Regards
Emily
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| Posted by: gamblinboi at February 16, 2004, 6:47 am | | Topic: First royal at INetBet, but... Forum: Winner Online |
7 times and not once did he bother reading the rules... well, hrm.. i think i might have to change my opinion on this matter then. It's not like it was his first time, was it then..
Emily, maybe as suggestion, to prevent future grief to players like this, in the email have a direct link to the terms and mention something like "Maximum cash out rules apply to this gift, please read the promotion terms...". That should be easy and might save future grief from *cough* lazy players who don't go through the terms and conditions.
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