| Posted by: GrandMaster at March 29, 2004, 12:24 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by CasinoNow
Actually, some of the new shufflers are quite random.
- select random between 1 & 52 - place that card first
- select random between 1 & 51 - place that card second
- select random between 1 & 50 - place that card third
That one at a time card shuffling process, with each being randomly selected, does produce much more random results than old school hand shuffling.
To get back to your point though, I would have to agree that there is such a thing as "random enough", and that most places seem to fall into it. However, if they have the ability to go from "random enough" to a slot-type randomness, the way caruso suspects, I would find that alarming. Not saying that is the case - only that I would find it disturbing if it was.
Max, great read. I remember reading it when you put it up, but it was definitely worth taking a few minutes to read again.
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| Posted by: Bethug at March 28, 2004, 1:31 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
boss media , did fraud on the slots , you dont think they would not fixed the other games boss media use to my fa software, not any more. You cant win like you do at other places and when i do come out , it take every thing i got to come out of ahead.
Tell u put 1000 in boss
Then put a 1000 in intercasino or lucky nugget
I been playing online for a few years now, and i almost play everyday and something is ery wrong with boss media
Then my next question who will play boss without a bonus?
Not to many.
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| Posted by: CasinoNow at March 28, 2004, 12:25 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by drlucky
When you play blackjack in a real casinos, you think the cards are truly shuffled randomly? of course not.
Actually, some of the new shufflers are quite random.
- select random between 1 & 52 - place that card first
- select random between 1 & 51 - place that card second
- select random between 1 & 50 - place that card third
That one at a time card shuffling process, with each being randomly selected, does produce much more random results than old school hand shuffling.
To get back to your point though, I would have to agree that there is such a thing as "random enough", and that most places seem to fall into it. However, if they have the ability to go from "random enough" to a slot-type randomness, the way caruso suspects, I would find that alarming. Not saying that is the case - only that I would find it disturbing if it was.
Max, great read. ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: drlucky at March 27, 2004, 8:38 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
you people worry too much about random numbers. As max said, the numbers are "random enough." When you play blackjack in a real casinos, you think the cards are truly shuffled randomly? of course not. but there is no real way to use the bias one way or the other (although i have heard of "shuffle tracking" but I have yet to see any proof this works).
Until there is empirical evidence that boss cheats, i don't buy they have a "take down mode." (and no, I am not an apologist or shill for anyone). A 1 in 100 chance ain't gonna prove anything. 1 in 10,000, maybe.
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| Posted by: eek at March 27, 2004, 6:14 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
These guys use white noise as the source, and you can have random no's for free.
http://www.random.org
And the users
http://www.random.org/users.html
Its the way forwards.
You take the random source AWAY from the ecasino, let them deal with the customers, just like a bricks & mortar joint.
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| Posted by: CasinoNow at March 27, 2004, 5:48 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Excellent post Max. I'll definitely click through and read the other discussion.
The decaying isotopes method you touch on - this is the one I know BM uses to generate random numbers. So far as I know, the only other source to acquire "true" random strings is from some guy in Ireland who pulls the readings from his weather station.
As you say, there is honestly no such thing as "true randomness". Most everything is pseudo-random, it just really depends on the degree of which. As long as it's not the "slot mode" ersion of random that Caruso was speaking of, I generally don't have a problem with it. Close to true randomness is good enough for me.
Anyway, I'll click over and read the other discussion now.
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| Posted by: max at March 27, 2004, 12:49 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
RNGs are far from infallable. In fact as I recall there is some statistical proof that no algorithm-based RNG is perfectly random if it's results are taken over an infinite period of time. On the other hand who really cares 'cause it's a theoretical proof.
The question really is "is it random enough?" and to answer that you need to know how the RNG is built, that is, which algorithm it uses and what it's observed results have been over an extended sample space.
Some RNGs actually produce cycles, some have a _slight_ bias to one spot or another in the sample space, etc. Given that it's no surprise that the casinos are _not_ advertising which algorithm their RNG is based on ... would tend to invite all the wrong kind of attention.
RNGs based on physical phenomenon are said to be closer to "true" random behaviour. We're talking isotope or particle based systems here instead of algorithms and guess what, they cost MUCH more.
This stuff is cover... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: CasinoNow at March 27, 2004, 11:11 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso
I'm sure the "single deck" has every possible inbuilt defence. ....
Very interesting Caruso. You know, I remember years ago on the old boards, Dave R made a ery good post about Boss' RNG. It was an impressive amount of information, with a lot of it being from the actual source that supplies their random numbers. I have often wondered if maybe there is an engineering problem with the process of obtaining these random sequences. I never really thought of it so much in terms of it messing up game play as much as I did about someone being able to manipulate the process to their own advantage. I never put all that much thought into it because it couldn't be proven either way (at least not by me), but now that I see your suspicions, it brings me back to wondering if the RNG is actually faulty.
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| Posted by: caruso at March 27, 2004, 6:27 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
I'm sure the "single deck" has every possible inbuilt defence.
I've listened to all the arguments (variance, misplays, etc etc), and I'm not remotely convinced that a casino can offer a fair game with a 100.11% return with $500 max bets and survive. Even at lowish betting levels - around $100 a hand - the return would be totally unsustainable. And yet those casinos that offer it continue to go from strength to strength.
Add the simple mathematics of the matter to my OWN experience of the Boss Media "single deck", and I'm left in not the slightest doubt that the software can be switched between "random" and "slot" mode as required.
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| Posted by: CasinoNow at March 26, 2004, 1:34 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Sorry to shift from the topic of the new owners back to the other topic. Most of my BM play was always at Prestige, and I haven't even played there in quite some time, so I can't speak as to the current state of affairs with the play of their software.
Caruso, when you say you think they can switch the RNG, you are saying you think they can switch from random to pseudo-random (as if true randomness exists), sort of like how a player switches from free money play to real money play? Dave R brings up a ery good point that the (really, really) old single player ersion of their software is a better blackjack game, for those who take the time to find a ersion. Do you also think this RNG switching is something that is capable on that ersion?
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| Posted by: Gamblegirl at March 26, 2004, 10:06 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Ok, I get you now.
Here is what little we do know:
The buying company is described "as one of the oldest betting companies on the Internet. The company began in 1985 as a telephone-betting operator, and within ten years it was one of the first betting companies on the Web."
We can also assume that the company is from England or at least the UK.
Boss already has deals with William Hill Plc, SBM Monaco, HIT Enterprise, Gala Group, Victor Chandler International, Bet365 Group, Bowmans and Sportingbet Plc.
"The company has asked to remain anonymous for the time being for 'reasons of competition'."
http://www.onlinecasinonews.com/ocn...cle.asp?id=4286
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| Posted by: Klaas at March 26, 2004, 8:52 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
[QUOTE=Gamblegirl]IDR is just the domain registration service. The real owners of Gold Club have chosen to remain anonymous.
I realize IDR is the registration compagny, but both casino.com and goldclubcasino.com have changed from Bosscasinos to IDR. This makes me believe the rumours about the same owner are true.
Funny to see other domains have changed back to Bosscasinos: atlanticcasino.com, queensclubcasino.com, 5starcasino.com, wallstreetcasino.com.
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| Posted by: Gamblegirl at March 26, 2004, 4:14 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
IDR is just the domain registration service. The real owners of Gold Club have chosen to remain anonymous.
http://www.idr.co.uk/
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| Posted by: Klaas at March 26, 2004, 1:59 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Does anyone has news on this new owner? I noticed the domain registration has changed to ‘IDR Management Services’ , the same as casino.com. This explains why Goldclub is the only BM casino advertising on casino.com. Promotions/operations at Goldclub are slow/dead, like other BM casino's. I still play a few hands now and then, but it's scary. Has anybody news on this operator?
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| Posted by: jbr at February 15, 2004, 5:15 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Jetset
Not any more it isn't.
InfoPowa Feb. 13 2004
GOLD CLUB SOLD
Undisclosed buyer / price for top Boss casino
The announcement has been expected for months as Swedish turnkey provider Boss Media continues to rationalise and concentrate on its core business...but this week the news was official - flagship Gold Club Casino has been sold.
The press release was brief and to the point, revealing that in order to concentrate on its core business Boss Media had decided to sell it's business-to-consumer division, starting with the web portal Casino.com that was sold for a reported $5 million during 2003. The release gives no details of intentions regarding player accounts, which will presumably be privately emailed, but does say that the undisclosed new owner will be staying with the Boss Media software package.
The price has not been disclosed, again at the request of the new owner.
"We h... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at February 15, 2004, 12:28 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Not any more it isn't.
InfoPowa Feb. 13 2004
GOLD CLUB SOLD
Undisclosed buyer / price for top Boss casino
The announcement has been expected for months as Swedish turnkey provider Boss Media continues to rationalise and concentrate on its core business...but this week the news was official - flagship Gold Club Casino has been sold.
The press release was brief and to the point, revealing that in order to concentrate on its core business Boss Media had decided to sell it's business-to-consumer division, starting with the web portal Casino.com that was sold for a reported $5 million during 2003. The release gives no details of intentions regarding player accounts, which will presumably be privately emailed, but does say that the undisclosed new owner will be staying with the Boss Media software package.
The price has not been disclosed, again at the request of the new owner.
"We have now completed what we set out to do during... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: fatshaft at February 14, 2004, 8:32 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
>>SNIP<<
Why would they rig the RNG, the odds are in their favour. As the comment above states, you will always notice really bad runs more than really good ones, it is human nature.
I used to work for an online casino that used Boss software, and first of all, the servers had nothing to do with Boss, they had no input other than the actual game play software. I would imagine this is the same for all other customer products on the market.
Gold Club is their own casino and a different kettle of fish entirely. They run that and have their own servers.
If you want to tar that fine, but not everyone else just cos they use the software package.
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| Posted by: Bone-Us at January 9, 2004, 12:59 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Just checked my results for Gold Club.
Wagering: $12000+
Return: 101.8%
Mostly had losing sessions but two good ones made up for the rest and then some. I did notice that my results are never ery close to expectation. Always well above or well below.
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| Posted by: raje at January 8, 2004, 11:54 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
hhc, u r right. it's bad luck if it happens once in a while.
but it doesn't.
caruso, yep, it's spread across the BM stable.
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| Posted by: Dave R at January 8, 2004, 1:51 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
Caruso may ery well be right -- that they can change thier RNG at will.
However, a while back, on the old Boss single player ersion, I did manage to turn a $400 deposit into well over $12000 and cashed out 10,000 of it.
I have not done nearly as well with the NEW single deck game that's built into thier multiplayer ersion. But I've bonus hunted like crazy, and have gotten away with it THUS FAR.
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| Posted by: bonuslover at January 8, 2004, 1:46 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
BM was fair back in the day. I only stick to Goldclub nowadays so I would only comment about this casino alone. I play BJ there coupla times a month and I have been getting fair results for the past 18 months. Several times when I was losing I could consistently tell what's upcoming (for the dealer) and I felt cheated. However, when I study the long run results in my spreadsheet, everything sort of converges to the theoretical yield or better. People tend to have a stronger sensation when they lose than when they win I guess.
Putting into consideration their generous bonus, good customer service (yes, they do speak English), and fast payouts, I really don't mind if they rig the game a little. (That is, IF they really rig the game.)
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| Posted by: hhcfreebie at January 8, 2004, 1:32 pm | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
You had a bad luck. To loose that much or more, the odds is 0.78% or 1 in 128.
My worst experience with BM is loosing 44 units after 267 units wagered, the odds is 1 in 77.
This month I won at gold club again. I bet $2 - $4 per bet and cash out $334 after $2500 WR, which only happens once every 14 times.
I still think BM is fair when I combine all the data. Of course I can't prove anything at all if they can change their RNG at will.
Maybe I am not targeted to take down.
On the other hand, I had terrible luck with RTG's pontoon while most people agree RTG deal a fair game.
hint: when I say "terrible" which usually happen less than 1 in 500. Trust me, it's not fun at all.
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| Posted by: caruso at January 8, 2004, 11:49 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
It's my unsubstantiatable and statistically insignificant opinion that Boss Media can switch the RNG (Rigged Number Generator) on and off at will. I've seen bullsh*t at Boss Media casinos that would curdle sour cream.
I doubt it's anything specific to Gold Club.
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| Posted by: magnek at January 8, 2004, 11:40 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
so is the consensus here that gold club cheats? I have read about lots of bad results here in the last 18 months or so on arious forums. I have had extended play at Boss Media sites before and did not seem to notice anything bad, though I haven't played at Gold Club in a while.
As the flagship site for Boss Media, Gold Club should be on the up and up, but who knows. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.
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| Posted by: raje at January 8, 2004, 11:29 am | | Topic: would BM ever repnt? Forum: Winner Online |
47 units lost in 260 hands played.
they could at least pretend to be fair.
enough is enough.
this is my last month at gold club.
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