| Posted by: sming at July 2, 2005, 9:31 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Fellow Online Players,
Clarification:
I am not a disgruntled player. My statements are not false. My data in post #47 in this thread are real and can be erified by the record on Lasseter servers. The probability of 14 losing streaks in single zero roulette when 15 of the 37 numbers are consistently covered is 7 in 10000. Its uncommon nature does not require the knowledge of a rocket scientist to figure out, certain not worth the time and trouble of the wizard of odds. This thread was created on 06/11/05, 18 days before the Lasseter data were collected on 06/29/05. They were posted not to disgruntle but to illustrate my point. Fellow online players can follow my position and be more on the watch out for fixing subroutines or smoke Mr. Facey's opium and happily be drained by fixing subroutines all the way to a nursing home where you own absolutely nada on this world.
In a way, Mr. Facey's position is understandable, but not to be applauded at because it is deceptive, evasi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Lasseters.com at July 1, 2005, 3:40 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Hello Everyone,
Once again, I find no credibilty in sming's outrageous response. However possibly this piece of information might help anyone following this thread.
Lasseters once had a player similar to sming who publically made false statements about BJ (unfortunately every now and then you do get a player who is unhappy with how they have played). In this case Lasseters followed the path suggested by the player about having the game tested, once again similar to sming's suggestion. Despite having having independant Governemnt regulation that is ery strict, Lasseters offered the player to choose an independant 3rd party to test our BJ. This player chose the wizard of odds, who most of you will know has a reputation beyond reproach.
The wizard of odds did the testing and came to the result that the game peformed just as it is described. That is, nothing out of the ordinary from plain good ol everyday BJ. I beleive the results are still available on his site.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at July 1, 2005, 1:59 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Fellow Online Players,
Mr. Facey's replies are straightforward indeed, and they say nothing. By hiding behind pompous excuses such as "privy" they reveal their true face: They don't care about the concerns of their customers at all. Fixing subroutines are their rags-to-riches superhighway, the last thing they would do is to reveal and expose them. The 14 losing streak is like being caught with their pants down, and in order to save their face and continue their rags-to-riches race by fixing subroutines, they wouldn't even bother to wipe their behinds and pull up their pants!
Somehow, I have the feeling that Mr. Facey is in the know about the fixing subroutines business, but right now he cares about his paycheck more than the fair treatment of their customers. Maybe like Mr. Felt, he has to wait till his 90s to collect enough sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair, to reveal what is really in his mind.
Meanwhile, we online players need to protect ourselves:
<... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Lasseters.com at June 30, 2005, 9:07 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
Dear Mr. Facey,
if you would just answer the questions:
1. Why was the 14 losing streak so easily met in your single zero roulette? I suspect some fixing subroutines at work. Do you disagree?
2. Then please provide proof that there are no fixing subroutines in your software. Have you personally examined the source codes of your software?
3. Is your company willing to submit the source codes of your software to a third party who will legally honor the privacy of your "intellectual property"? After erifying by the third party the absence of any fixing subroutines in your source codes, your source codes will then and there be compiled into runable programs on the third party's server available to be test played by customers wishing to make sure their real play records are compatible to the test play records, thereby clarifying doubts of fixing subroutines.
Hope you see the obvious and w... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at June 30, 2005, 8:45 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Dear Mr. Facey,
You stated, "You seem to be targeting Lasseters only because we are handy." On the contrary, because I think you and Lasseter may be serious about what you believe and willing to prove your fairness as a pioneer example for the online gaming industry, I address some of my concerns to you as an online player in general and as a Lasseter customer in particular.
It would be sad and discredit you completely if you avoid addressing our concerns and talk useless terms like "sling mud" and "stick." It would be more constructive if you would just answer the questions:
1. Why was the 14 losing streak so easily met in your single zero roulette? I suspect some fixing subroutines at work. Do you disagree?
2. Then please provide proof that there are no fixing subroutines in your software. Have you personally examined the source codes of your software?
3. Is your company willing to submit the source codes of your soft... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Lasseters.com at June 30, 2005, 7:11 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Sming,
I am perplexed by the fact that you continue to sling mud at the Lasseters name hoping something will stick, despite the fact that all your assertions are incorrect. I have not seen any shred of credibility in your posts. You seem to be disgruntled at online casinos at large, possibly you lost money somewhere or feel like you were cheated, either way you are off base attacking Lasseters. We have a good reputation amongst players for a reason.
You seem to be targeting Lasseters only because we are handy, because we have taken the opportunity to try and add some detail to the discussions.
In the long run, if you no longer gain any enjoyment from playing at online casinos, maybe it is time to move on.
Kind Regards
Michael Facey
www.lasseters.com.au
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| Posted by: sming at June 30, 2005, 4:59 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
True, eek, if Mr. Facey is reading the posts and listening to what we have to say, it is a poor subroutine to remain silent. If he presents himself as the protector of fairness in cyberspace gaming, at least as far as Lasseter is concerned, then he ought to:
1. Demand his company to make available to him the source codes of their single zero roulette, examine them carefully, and explain to us customers why the uncommon event is so common in their casino;
2. Demand his company to submit all source codes to their government AND a third party to be examined. Once the source codes have passed the examination as having no fixing subroutines, they should then and there be compiled on the third party's server and be made available to all online players for test playing at any time. If I play 51 spins on the Lasseter single zero roulette on the third party server ersion and get the uncommon event just as easily, then it proves Lasseter games are fair as Mr. Facey believes. If I keep playin... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GrandMaster at June 30, 2005, 4:37 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
The lesson is clear: the only way casinos will not insert fixing subroutines is when there is no place to insert them, like Casinowebcam.com's live games. Don't you agree?
I think we online players should boycott all online casinos with no live dealers. We should all play in casinos like casinowebcam.com, have lots of fun, have our fair chance of winning, and shower casinowebcam.com with money as dictated by the house edges of the games, and let those greedy, subroutine-inserting, dead-dealer-run online casinos have their envious eyes pop out!
Blackjack Secrets by Stanford Wong has a whole chapter on cheating. There are lots of different methods of cheating, for example, adding a few extra 5's to the deck or removing a few aces, dealing seconds, etc. If the dealer can get away with these while you are sitting at the table a few feet away from her, what chance have you of catching cheating through a low quality ideo link? ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: eek at June 30, 2005, 3:53 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
BTW if that Lassies guy is still hanging about.
Your site has some really annoying popups.
I log on, have a wander about, then leave.
Popup 1 appears "why did you leave?"
click to exit...
Popup 2 appears for the Ausvegas site
click to exit...
popup 3 appears "why did you leave?"
clicking frantically by now...die die die
3 popups at one site?? Imagine if all sites did that.
It doesn't make the operation look ery professional.
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| Posted by: sming at June 29, 2005, 3:04 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Dear hhcfreebie,
Thank you for your more correct, more accurate statistic account of the Lasseter single roulette data. The result is still uncommon. True the casinos would love us to think nothing is unfair because statistically most events are possible. I am of the opinion that we online players should be more cautious. When such uncommon events happen, just run.
In every category people can be grouped into different types. In health, for example, there are people who are healthy mentally, physically, and physiologically, who don't know the word "disease"; then there are the majority of us who have one disease or another but who are managing it so that life goes on; finally there are the unfortunate group of people who are plagued with one disease after another, aids, drug-dependency, whore-dependency, autism, cerebral palsy, multiple sclerosis, ALS, dementia, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, carcinoma, etc. etc. For this last group they need help and protectio... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: hhcfreebie at June 29, 2005, 12:14 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
For Lasseter single roulette game, I placed bets on 15 of the 37 numbers. Statistically, the percent the ball will fall on one of my numbers is 15/37=40.54%. In other words, in every three spins I ought to have one hit. Yet I had no hit 14 spins straight!(Record below) Likelihood of that in a fair random game should be 7 occurances in 10000, yet I played 51 spins and I ran into it!
Ya, in statistics it is not impossible, but isn't it too frequent in reality?
For 14 straight loss, the chance is 6.9 in 10000 or 1 in 1448. You played 51 spins, every "14 spins" could be the losing streak so you have 38 (51-14+1=38) chances to run into that bad streak. That is, to run into a bad streak like this in 51 spins is 1 in 38.6.
I'd say it's a uncommon event, but it happens.
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
The lesson is clear: the only way casinos will not insert fixing subroutines is when there is no place to insert them, l... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at June 28, 2005, 10:05 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Dear Fellow Online Players,
Let the fact speak, and we learn the lesson.
For Lasseter single roulette game, I placed bets on 15 of the 37 numbers. Statistically, the percent the ball will fall on one of my numbers is 15/37=40.54%. In other words, in every three spins I ought to have one hit. Yet I had no hit 14 spins straight!(Record below) Likelihood of that in a fair random game should be 7 occurances in 10000, yet I played 51 spins and I ran into it!
Ya, in statistics it is not impossible, but isn't it too frequent in reality?
The lesson is clear: the only way casinos will not insert fixing subroutines is when there is no place to insert them, like Casinowebcam.com's live games. Don't you agree?
I think we online players should boycott all online casinos with no live dealers. We should all play in casinos like casinowebcam.com, have lots of fun, have our fair chance of winning, and shower casinowebcam.com with money as dictated by the house edges... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at June 28, 2005, 5:30 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Dear Mr. Facey,
Thank you for your reply.
Your position is clear and consistent: We (Lasseter) believe our software is fair. You (players) are entitled to your opinions and what you choose.
Sadly, you are not entitled to claim: we know, we have proven that our software is free of fixing subroutines. Maybe you as a rep don't even have access to your source codes.
We players hope more: We hope not only that you believe you are fair but we wish you could present proof that you are fair. Sadly no online casino, not even Lasseter, has presented such proof. They hide behind excuses like "intellectual property" and let their fixing subroutines run and collect money. These subroutines may be ery subtle, ery clever, not active all the time, all to give the player the doubt that the subroutines are not there.
Seeing is believing. At least, webcam casinos with live dealers like casinowebcam.com do not have the options of writing fixing subroutines. S... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Lasseters.com at June 27, 2005, 9:18 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
Verdict is in!
The fact that Mr. Facey has been silent proves that sadly he cannot be the
virgin-----------------------------------------------------casino rep who has examined the company software source codes before claiming the absence of fixing subroutines in the games. Do you agree?
-sming
Hi all,
Just to let you all know that I am reading the posts and listening to what you have to say. There has been nothing new posted here that would draw me to make a comment. I have offered the facts as to why Lasseters has a strong reputation as a fair and reputable casino, for those who chose to use that information and play, great, you will have a good time. For those who dispute what I have written, you are welcome to your thoughts.
Kind Regards
Michael Facey
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| Posted by: sming at June 27, 2005, 8:16 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Verdict is in!
The fact that Mr. Facey has been silent proves that sadly he cannot be the
virgin-----------------------------------------------------casino rep who has examined the company software source codes before claiming the absence of fixing subroutines in the games. Do you agree?
So, your funny feelings do count! Don't wait for statistic significance! If you feel dealer is getting more BJ than you, dealer is winning more double down hands, you lose more often when you bet big, dealer just does not bust as often as he should, dealer has more lousy-hand-to-supervior-hand luck than you, the roulette ball just loves to fall into one of the few numbers which you happened to have not placed a bet, the slot machine just knows to give you smalls wins, plenty of losses, and rarely any big wins, etc. etc., then you are right! The game may ery well be fixed! Grab your money and run! Go to casinowebcam.com, a nearby Indian reservation casino, or drive to Las Vegas! At least you ha... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at June 23, 2005, 6:52 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Thanks, hhcfreebie. These are big names indeed. In my early playing with MicroGaming, I did the following little test on single Roulette: for 10 spins straight I placed the min bet on red, the next 10 spins straight I betted on black, etc., for a total of 60 spins. For every 10 spins I would lose 2 units or above, for all 6 10 spins. Is that normal? I called the casino then. They said it had to be chance, but they refunded my loss.
Do you guys believe this was chance?
-sming
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| Posted by: hhcfreebie at June 22, 2005, 4:31 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
Could hhcfreebie specifically name the major casino softwares which are regarded as fair?
Microgamming, Real Time Gamming, Cryptologic, Playtech, Casino on Net, Boss Media, Cherry casinos and its sisters.
I've played more than 100,000 hands BJ (except playtech, I play ideo pokers instead) on each software and my result is okay.
I flat bet most of the time, so I have no clue whether they change their odds on big bet or not.
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| Posted by: hhcfreebie at June 22, 2005, 12:02 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by eek
Even in this place its dead quiet nowadays.
Many of the old WOL regulars are off playing Poker where the software provider gets an automatic rake of the pot so randomness is not such a huge issue.
Poker has only been around for a couple of years and yet already one of the providers is looking at a multi-billion dollar flotation on the stock market.
Meanwhile the casino industry stumbles along with the same old issues
People left the building because there is almost no advantage to gain nowadays. Also, I am tired of sending endless documents to new casinos jut to get my winning.
I used to play a lot for the extra income. Now I'd be happy to get $300 a month, it's pointless to waste more than 15 hours a month in this industry.
As for the fairness of the game, I don't really worry about it. My record told me most major softwares are okay.
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| Posted by: sming at June 21, 2005, 11:30 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Hi guys,
Wonder why Mr. Facey has not yet responded. On acation or spending time actually examining the source codes of Lasseter's software so as to become the irgin rep in the whole cyberspace who can rightfully claim, "Our games are random and not fixed because I have checked our source codes. This claim is not hearsay from my superior but is based on my actual examination."
That would win the hearts of us all!
-sming
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at June 20, 2005, 11:17 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
You cannot erify just one component of a system in isolation. How do you know that the compiler really compiles the correct executable? It is unlikely that the compiler would be rigged to recognise the source code of the casino and to produces a rigged casino executable, but there could be a bug in it which could affect the fairness of the casino. I don't deal with compilers on a daily basis, but I have certainly found several bugs in expensive commercial scientific software.
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| Posted by: sming at June 19, 2005, 2:40 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
You are right, GrandMaster, which means we online players may never nail online casinos to the pillar of honesty and they don't want to nail themselves so, for it is painful to their greedy profit bottom line.
How many players out there have the feeling that when you bet big you lose more than when you bet the minimum? It's almost as if there were a watching eye that is programed as: if the player is betting min I would not bother sucking him because the house edge would eventually drain him; but if the player starts to bet big I will activite some subroutines to make sure his juices are sucked dry.
Also, do you think any of the casino reps have actually examined the source codes of their casino games? If never, how can they be so confident in claiming the fairness of their software? At most their base is their hearsay from their boss but our base is the actual experiences of more than a few players with many actual playing experiences.
-sming
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| Posted by: sming at June 18, 2005, 10:21 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Dear Mr. Facey,
Your statement "As a player you can open a points account and use as many points as you like to test our BJ. " has revealed that you at least are not a regular online player frequenting casinos powered by different softwares. Am I right? For it is almost common sense among us that there are softwares who fix the free plays to win easily and the real plays to be nonradom, the former to suck us in and the latter to drain our wallets. Because of the existence of such softwares, it really does not matter if Lasseters BJ is fair, no one would put any weight on points account testing results.
Technically, is it possible for Lasseters to let any player, who is playing and decides to make sure the games are fair, to right then and there download the software he is playing with its source codes and go through the algorithms for assurance no fixing is in the program? If yes, all distrust would disappear: Reputable casinos are glad because they have nothing to hide a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: eek at June 17, 2005, 9:06 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
If Michael at Lasseters wants to get at bit of insight into the level of interest in this randomness stuff he should do a search on Truegambler.
TG was the only time the industry came close to sorting the gameplay issue.
http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=6022
http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=5902
Once randomness IS sorted, the multi-million dollar ecasino industry will then finally be on its way towards realising its full potential...
...which is as a multi-billion dollar internet industry.
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| Posted by: ian_go at June 17, 2005, 7:04 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by eek
Even in this place its dead quiet nowadays.
Many of the old WOL regulars are off playing Poker where the software provider gets an automatic rake of the pot so randomness is not such a huge issue.
Poker has only been around for a couple of years and yet already one of the providers is looking at a multi-billion dollar flotation on the stock market.
Meanwhile the casino industry stumbles along with the same old issues
Sharp post(s) Eek on multiple points. The bonus model, something that 90% of the online casino industry has really painted itself into a corner with, is far less complex for Poker. Randomness of Poker results are rarely called to question. Poker was in a position to really 'invent' itself from the best that online gaming and current marketing have to offer, rather than go thru' the casino industry's somewhat painful experience.
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| Posted by: Lasseters.com at June 16, 2005, 5:05 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandMaster
Could you explain what it means that "The long-term average player return for this game, as approved by the Regulatory Authority is: 97.64%"?
Hi GrandMaster,
Ok the answer to your question is this, the 97.64 % is the expected rate of return an average player should achieve on play over the long term i.e. for every $1 wagered it should return 97.64 cents back to the player. As we know there can be short term ariations but on the long term, this is what occurs. This number is achieved by the auditor based on using reasonably achievable strategy from an average player.
Answers sming's questions: Thanks you for disclosing that the source of suspicion has emanated from just a few disgruntled players. It is true that they have no statistical foundation for this claim, just their personal opinion. The fact is that the claim will never be proven because it just isn't true and you don't need millions of dollars to prove ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: HKGambler at June 16, 2005, 9:16 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
All we need is a mechanism to PROVE the randomness of a game.
The payout % approved by the highly renowned auditors is meaningless to proving randomness.
The highly regarded seals of approval are not assuring to proving randomness.
Let me quote eek’s fine points previously as:
Quote: Originally Posted by eek
- A lot of players are avoiding …… because it does not feel right when they play it.
- The crux of the problem is that there is no proof of randomness for software, so any comments made as to randomness are merely personal opinions.
- If you could achieve a solution, and prove randomness, you would be the first in the industry...
- There is a huge untapped market of players just waiting for a provider to come up with a game that can be seen to be random.
- And you won't need bonuses to pull folks in through the door if you can prove your gameplay is random.
- Meanwhile the casino industry stumbles along with... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at June 16, 2005, 7:22 am | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Dear Mr. Facey,
Thank you for participating in our discussion as a rep from Lasseters.
To answer your question, the reason for my statement "Lasseters has come under suspicion of fixing their software" was the arious players posting on this site their feelings after playing BJ in your casino which were mostly negative, would you agree? The reason I chose the word "suspicion" is because these negative feelings were not statistically proven and probably will never be until someone has the money and willingness to play (and be sucked) millions of hands (of his money).
May I ask: When you say Lasseters is government-regulated, does your company submit your program codes to the government? Does the government have the right to randomly go to you server and examine the source codes of your program that is running? And if it does, has it ever done so? Is there such interest in your government to go so out of their way to protect the citizens of the cyberspac... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Lasseters.com at June 15, 2005, 4:17 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Hi all,
For players who are interested this url http://www.lasseters.com.au/game/ru...ckjackrules.jsp lists the Lasseters payout for BJ. You can find the payout figures for all our games in the rules file of each game. The BJ payout as approved by the Regulatory Authority is 97.64%, in fact in May the payout figure was actually higher than this. As I said in my earlier post, take the time to do the research to help you make the best choices as the where you want to play.
In relation to Bonuslover, I do not find your approach to this topic to be constructive but rather aggressive and unhelpful. As a result I will no longer be responding directly to your diatribes on this forum. However if you do have an individual issue I urge you to contact our customer care team where they can directly discuss the specifics of your account and game activity with you.
Kind Regards
Michael Facey
www.lasseters.com
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| Posted by: Lasseters.com at June 15, 2005, 3:33 pm | | Topic: Have to play millions of hands to know if a game software is fixed and non-random? Forum: Winner Online |
Hi everyone,
I have been reading you responses to my post and, despite being perplexed by one users posts, it is good to see the debate is still alive. As a casino rep I don't attempt to steer the discussion but merely offer correction and information where I can. I hope some users find this of assistance or interest. If you do not find any alue in my posts please feel free to ignore them.
As always thank you for your posts, the issues you raise bring to our attention the concerns in the industry.
Kind Regards
Michael Facey
www.lasseters.com.au
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