| Posted by: sming at April 11, 2006, 8:33 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
JohnnyCasino, would you agree that we online players really wish and welcome RNGs that are truly random, not fixed, not rigged, not cheating? But sadly players' wishing looks so pale in the eyes of greedy casino operators and software providers that are so ghostly green because their eyes are hooked to the green stuff.
Any software provider willing to submit the source codes of their games to an independent reputable third party who can certify the absence of any fixing subroutines will automatically win the trust and patronage of us online players.
-sming
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| Posted by: JohnnyCasino at April 11, 2006, 12:54 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
JohnnyCasino, To ask MG your question is like asking a thief, " Do you steal?" Do you think they will admit?
-sming
heh heh well of course if you have convicted them before you ask the question you would receive the answer you expect but would be ery interesting to see how it was worded don't you think?
Quite funny to see everyone in the 'School yard' whispering behind their backs but too scared to go up to them and say, "this is what ppl are saying.. and what do you think?"
When I get a moment I will flick them a message and post what they come back with. Will it be what you expect? Most definitely... but even I am now interested to see what they say about the comments in this thread and HOW they say it..
There is no doubt (from what I have read) that a majority of ppl think fun mode performs 'differently' than real mode for MGS.
I promote MGS Casinos on my site, maybe I sho... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jaracara at April 10, 2006, 5:26 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Hi Guys
I have read all your comments with interest, an they have prmpted me to join your discussion group!
Poker: I have been playing online now for 3 yars and always have the same problem that after a deposit the 'RNG' card shuffler favours me. It doesn't last long though, usually receiving well over average bad beats after a few days to take the balance away again until the next deposit.
Completely different to playing live which I do twice a week.
This is not unusual to one site.
Has any one else out there found the same thing? Withdrawal of funds is suicide! etc etc
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| Posted by: sming at April 9, 2006, 5:49 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
JohnnyCasino, To ask MG your question is like asking a thief, " Do you steal?" Do you think they will admit?
Slotslug, Thanks for the quote. If one casino has to state publicly their RNG for fun mode and RNG for real money mode are the same, then it must be there are other casinos whose RNGs are not the same. Maybe it is a known shared secret among operators and software providers that fixing in the software is expected and planned and accepted because they want players bleed more than cut by the house edge and operators and software providers are just happier they can suck more green stuff.
Until there is a regulated third party able to access the source codes of the games software, morality and integrity alone are too weak to keep out the fixing subroutines.
-sming
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| Posted by: slotslug at April 8, 2006, 7:17 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
There is this blurb in 32Red's (Microgaming) FAQ:
How do you determine which cards are drawn (dice thrown, number selected, etc.) for the games?
The most important part of an online casino is a specially designed program called the Random Number Generator. This is the program that generates a sequence of numbers which correspond to arious card types, dice throws, etc. A good random Number Generator will produce numbers that are:
Evenly distributed and correlated
Unpredictable
If a Random Number Generator is evenly distributed and not correlated, each number will be hit approximately the same number of times after a large number of events. If a Random Number Generator is unpredictable, you will not be able to predict the next number in a series no matter how many previously generated numbers you have studied.
Please note: that Guest players playing for fun experience the 32Red Random Number Generator used throughout the casino for all play, both fun and real money. We ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at April 6, 2006, 7:43 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Fascinating! GrandMaster, you are much more equipped and programing sa y to help us understand what we should expect from a system! Thank you! If I have only 42% chance to reach from 1000 to 2000, then for sure MG fun mode seems too easy and real money seems too hard! Personally, I am convinced that there is some subroutine in MG software that makes fun mode a bait as it is and real money mode a trap as it is. Boy! How greed works it sucking power even in big names like Microgaming!
By the way, GrandMaster, would you please explain how the 42% is arrived at? Thanks again.
-sming
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| Posted by: sming at April 6, 2006, 5:26 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
GrandMaster, Many thanks. You are right the testing system has a chance to lose, and lose heavily, statistically. However, must we equate that as proving MG RNG as having no fixing? How do you feel the fact that I play and play and win and win in fun mode and when I switch to real money mode I soon experience the heavy loss, despite the only 7% of chance? Shouldn't we be suspicious?
-sming
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at April 6, 2006, 12:08 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
The reason why that system looks such a certain winner is that the probability of winning in the first step (playing until your balance is more than 1000 balance or you have not enough left to make a bet) is 93.8% and is even more if you start with a higher balance, so it is quite easy to win several times in a row. The only problem is that if you lose, you lose a lot.
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| Posted by: sming at April 5, 2006, 9:37 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
GrandMaster, Thank you for taking the time to do the testing. Your result seemed to indicate MG fun mode was not easily winning, as I thought. I tried more than a few systems in fun mode and they all won beautifully which lured me into playing in real money mode and the result was miserable. Regardless of what the real cause is, I would urge fellow online players to learn the lesson from my loss and be extra cautious about believing the fairness of RNG powered online casinos.
Hope this helps and reduces the number of players who fall into the traps.
-sming
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at April 4, 2006, 3:13 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
Jetset, Got2Bet, GrandMaster, Caruso, and Dave R.,
You people have the expertise and impact to make a difference. So let me throw this ball to you to see if anyone is willing to pick it up:
A test system for Microgaming's European Roulette:
1. Deposit $1000 fun money in fun account;
2. Before starting a session, write down balance;
3. Bet $1 to 36, spin, add $1 to 36/35 split, spin, add $1 to 35, spin, add $1 to 35/34 split, spin, add $1 to 34, spin, add $1 to 36/35/34, spin, add $1 to 36/33, spin, add $1 to 36/35/33/32 corner, spin, add $1 to 35/32 split, spin, add $1 to 35/34/32/31 corner, spin, add $1 to 34/31 split, spin, add $1 to 36-31 street, spin, add $1 to 36, etc. The session stops whenever the balance surpasses the initial balance or cannot cover the bets on the table.
4. Repeat 2-3 till balance exceeds $2000.
5. Do the same in the real money mode, which is the second part of the test system but ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GrandMaster at April 2, 2006, 11:14 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Got2Bet
I think we're not seeing the same thing.
An RNG can most definitely be predicted if you know the alue of the system clock.
The problem is, we as players aren't trying to predict the alue of the system clock at all. There is absolutely no reason why a casino would use patterns to set up more wins in fun mode.
For all intents and purposes, RNGs, whether hardware or software, will deliver results relatively consistent with randomness. For the purposes of fun play, there is no reason why anyone would bother to try and detect the pattern or the seed.
In real mode play - definitely agreed.
So we get back to the point - if a fun mode system is producing patterns or streaks which are inconsistent with randomness, then it is rigged. If you continue to win in fun mode without losing, something is probably up. If you continue to LOSE in fun mode without winning, this is actually normal!
There are two iss... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at April 1, 2006, 1:18 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Based on the discussion above, what conclusion do you draw?
For me: if fun mode is random, it should not be more or less difficult to win than real money mode. That MG fun mode is so much easier to win than its real money mode or RTG's fun mode points to possible tampering with the RNG for whatever alluring or misleading hidden purposes. What's more bothersome is the concern that if fun mode RNG can be fixed at will, who is to say real money mode RNG is not fixed in however subtle way to ensure online players like you and me lose.
Maybe we should all go play in online casinos with live dealers such as www.casinowebcam.com and its sister casinos and Playtech powered casinos that offer live dealers. True, these casinos can still cheat in ways land casinos can do, true, RNG casinos are faster, but what fun and excitement is there when your money is lost not by house edge or even bad luck but by shrud calculating cheat?
-sming
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at March 31, 2006, 8:14 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
I think we're not seeing the same thing.
An RNG can most definitely be predicted if you know the alue of the system clock.
The problem is, we as players aren't trying to predict the alue of the system clock at all. There is absolutely no reason why a casino would use patterns to set up more wins in fun mode.
For all intents and purposes, RNGs, whether hardware or software, will deliver results relatively consistent with randomness. For the purposes of fun play, there is no reason why anyone would bother to try and detect the pattern or the seed.
In real mode play - definitely agreed.
So we get back to the point - if a fun mode system is producing patterns or streaks which are inconsistent with randomness, then it is rigged. If you continue to win in fun mode without losing, something is probably up. If you continue to LOSE in fun mode without winning, this is actually normal!
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| Posted by: drhuynh at March 30, 2006, 11:48 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Any clock-based randomization algorithms, if not used correctly, can easily be predicted and if given enough time, will leave patternable trace. In the beginning days of online casino , there are many casinos that are ulnerable to this type of attack. For example, you can read this article:
http://www.developer.com/java/other/article.php/616221
Random Number Generators are divided into two types: deterministic and nondeterministic. Deterministic is the method that uses a seed (ie system clock) to generate the number while nondeterministic will use some type of
hardware (ie USB Key) to generate the number. The nondeterministic method
is considered to be safer and harder to break. Therefore, it is widely used in cryptography to store sensitive data (For more information about this, you can search on the FIPS standard). I have encountered many land-base casino softwares that used the nondeterministic method to generate random numbers (in slot machines), however, I doubt if online ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at March 30, 2006, 4:21 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Bethug, Your testing with fun modes is more extensive than mine and my playing of MG and RTG fun mode agreed with what you stated.
drhuynh, Thank you for the education. Even if it is true that "the client random generating algorithm is ery weak and patternable", the testing system of #19-#31 did not intentionally seek any patterns. Rather, the result indicates that MG fun mode goes out of its way to make it easier to win, something not dictated by any random generating algorithm, however weak it maybe. If so, what would prevent RNG in real money mode from being tampered with, which is what we online players should worry about. Would you agree?
-sming
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at March 30, 2006, 7:13 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Welcome to WOL, Drhuynh.
I cannot agree with your hypothesis that the "client RNG is weak and patternable". Every programmer knows how to use the system clock to generate a random number - so unless your computer clock jumps back to a previous point in time in a measureable pattern, you SHOULD be getting enough randomness to give fun mode the same essential playing characteristics as in real mode.
Are they the same? Probably not.
Are they similarly random? Probably so.
Any blackjack game, in fun or real mode, which has measurable patterns is surely rigged. I would not condone this under any circumstances.
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| Posted by: drhuynh at March 30, 2006, 12:04 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
In my experience of writting testing tools for casino software, I have known many casino software that works totally differently in real mode and fun mode. One of the common deployment is the casino client generates it own random number in fun mode. The argument for it is the casinos want to save bandwidth. And you may guess it right, the client random generating algorithm is ery weak and patternable. One of the trick to test it is while playing in fun mode, try to disconnect the network to see whether or not the casino still working.
Another technique widely used is differentiating the random generator for fun mode and real mode in the casino server. The fun mode uses a super duper simple algorithm (ie like the ulnerable random() in Delphi) while the real mode having a fancy one (sometimes involve hardware).
The bottom line is the casino won't give much focus on the fun mode since they think fun mode is just for showing the users how the graphic, the sounds, and the interface look... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at March 29, 2006, 12:13 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Got2Bet, Understandable. Given how much you are doing for the online players, I can imagine how busy you are.
GrandMaster, I have a feeling that your promise is solid as gold. I look forward to your expert and unbiased analysis of #19. Thank you in advance. Please note the test system modification below.
Caruso, The ball is #19. You are right if real money mode is fair we do not need to fuss about the fun mode. The problem is: if it is so easy to win in fun mode, almost unbelievably easy, and so much harder to win in real money mode, almost impossibly hard, how can we be so sure that the real money mode is fair? Any tampering of the random nature of the game abuses the assumption of players and hurts their trust.
Bonuslover, Please refer to the modification below.
A modification of the #19 test system:
Given the extreme likelihood that the tester will lose money in MG real money mode, l replace the second part of the testing system to be on RTG fun ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sming at March 27, 2006, 8:26 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Hi Guys,
Have you bothered to test at least the fun mode part of the test system? Well, I did: In 14 sessions I increased my balance by 1059, as follows:
2073 (initial balance)
2382
2390
2447
2462
2506
2562
2623
2668
2737
2829
2868
2943
2988
3132 stopped because balance increased more than $1000.
The fourteen sessions were completed in 34 minutes. Well! $1059 in about half an hour! Who needs a 9 to 5 job! Just open a real money account and have Microgaming powered casinos send you money while you live like a King!
Wait a minute! If you do open a real money account, you may be dealing with a quite different RNG that has the power much stronger and more intelligent than the house edge which will suck you dry and penniless in no time!
Convinced now? If still unconvinced, just make sure you put aside some money for your family and a buck or two for your old age before charging into th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DALLAS3363 at March 27, 2006, 5:35 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
I've been gambling online for over 8 years-To me there is no question that playing for fun or for real is 2 different games.Can I prove it-NO-do I wan't to bother -NO=But has anybody ever noticed that it is almost impossible to win when you cash in your loyalty points? I don't care if it's $20 or $100-it's amazing how fast you get shot down playing on the free(So Called) money.I've won big money playing without bonuses,yet 90% of the with the bonus it's always a loss.Same principal applies to free money and real money.Stats don't mean a thing when most players realize the the only way to win on any regular basis is to stay away from bonuses.Just my oponion,but free money,loyalty,comps=Take your best shot but don't expect to win.
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| Posted by: sming at March 27, 2006, 1:08 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Jetset, Got2Bet, GrandMaster, Caruso, and Dave R.,
You people have the expertise and impact to make a difference. So let me throw this ball to you to see if anyone is willing to pick it up:
A test system for Microgaming's European Roulette:
1. Deposit $1000 fun money in fun account;
2. Before starting a session, write down balance;
3. Bet $1 to 36, spin, add $1 to 36/35 split, spin, add $1 to 35, spin, add $1 to 35/34 split, spin, add $1 to 34, spin, add $1 to 36/35/34, spin, add $1 to 36/33, spin, add $1 to 36/35/33/32 corner, spin, add $1 to 35/32 split, spin, add $1 to 35/34/32/31 corner, spin, add $1 to 34/31 split, spin, add $1 to 36-31 street, spin, add $1 to 36, etc. The session stops whenever the balance surpasses the initial balance or cannot cover the bets on the table.
4. Repeat 2-3 till balance exceeds $2000.
5. Do the same in the real money mode, which is the second part of the test system but is impossible and immoral for me to ask you t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at March 27, 2006, 12:16 pm | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Regrettably we have something of an impasse here, hopefully of a temporary nature.
Until PwC are more forthcoming regarding their methodology there will always be those who decline to accept outcomes based testing as a alid process.
And more conventional source code testing is generally dismissed because it is a one-off that (it is claimed) can be manipulated by the operator subsequently.
Here's your cue, Dave, Eek et al - the solution could have been TrueGambler and the player input concept!
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at March 27, 2006, 11:50 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
LOL Dave! That post looks strangely familiar
sming - I haven't played Microgaming casinos in guest mode for ages, so I'm in no position to comment on whether or not anything is happening here.
However, I share the same opinion as Grandmaster - I expect a free mode game to play more or less the same as the real mode game - any free mode game which modifies or skews results would surely put them in my own blacklist unless this has been clearly stated up front. And if I were still running a major gambling information site - I sure as hell would not hesitate to shout it from the mountain tops...
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at March 27, 2006, 11:09 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
statistician's ease of give-in to "bad luck", "sample size too small", etc.
Yes, there is such a thing as bad luck. What do you want a statistician to tell if your data don't support your assumptions?
I also need to repeat that the proper procedure for statistical testing is to formulate the hypotheses beforehand rather than to look for unusual patterns in the data afterwards.
Quote: Originally Posted by sming
Online players' actual, objective experiences and feelings do count.
Given the choice between relying on facts or feelings, I will choose the facts.
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| Posted by: sming at March 27, 2006, 10:16 am | | Topic: Beware!!! Microgaming software's RNGs for fun mode and real money mode may differ!!! Forum: Winner Online |
Hi, Dave R., a big THANK YOU for such quality input and the points well taken!
1. Greed certainly triggered all the cheatings in landbased casinos and greed is known to trigger all kinds of fixing of RNGs, payout refusals, and disappearances of casino sites, etc.
2. Only it is a lot easier to cheat online: close-to-zero kind of regulation, ease of cheating suroutines protected by software providers' property privacy, and statistician's ease of give-in to "bad luck", "sample size too small", etc.
3. It is no-brainer that any software provider can temporarily turn off the fixing subroutines for auditing purposes and turn them back on with jeers of "bad luck". Why put any weight on those reports at all? Online players' actual, objective experiences and feelings do count.
4. I so agree with you that many casinos and software providers can't withhold bowel movement in front of the green stuff, and I hope with you that there are those s... | | Read Entire Entry |
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