| Posted by: caruso at February 15, 2007, 6:22 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
FWIW, this thread - and my own blog article in fact - is currently listed on page three of a Google search of "Bella Vegas". Entries 24 and 25 out of 2.2 million, not bad. Page one would be a load better.
Bella Vegas accepted an "underage" gambler's deposits while she was losing, then when she won suddenly discovered she was "underage". That in addition to the fact that the cited Nevada laws referred to offline gambling, not online, and as such were totally irrelevant.
Exploitation of minors. What a big thumbs-up this episode gave the online gambling business. WTG, Bella Vegas. Keep it up.
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| Posted by: Ashraf at January 22, 2007, 7:19 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Yeah the same thing happened to me with this casino. Even worse : I was not even refunded my deposit. Their pretext? They pretend that my credit card was issued by an American bank. Despite the fact that I sent them my Id card and a utility bill all confirming that I am Egyptian and reside in Egypt. I also sent them copies of the front and back of the master card used to fund the e-card that was used to deposit into my account. I even sent them a copy of the account statement clearly showing my address as being in Cairo- Egypt. They simply keep sending you the same message over and over again pretending that they are waiting for the reply of their "Risk Departement." An answer that of course never comes. I even went through calling them through long distance calls. They would keep me on hold for half an hour hoping I would get tired of waiting. Then someone else picks up the phone petending not to know what the problem was so that you would go through the same process all over again and so on ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caruso at January 6, 2007, 5:35 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Good to see you again, Timbie.
It'll be little consolation to you, but what Bella Vegas stole from you is nothing in comparison to the hit they, Microgaming and the rest of the online gambling industry took when Leach got his bill through. They've collectively lost untold millions. Poetic justice indeed.
You never know, maybe word of what operations like Bella Vegas did got through to the US admin and spurred the prohibitionists on. Maybe Bella Vegas and other eCOGRA-backed operations like them were basically the architects of their own downfall.
What goes around comes around.
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| Posted by: timbie at January 6, 2007, 5:24 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
The Guru, I was 19 and not under 18.
The legal age in Las egas is 21.
The problem is that the casino had the 18 sign in his main page
The terms indicated that 18 is ok for Bella Vegas but to cover themselves againt lawsuit they wrote another general term that the law at the your jurisdiction is to determine.
Thank you all for supporting me, I saw lately couple of cases that eCOGA supported although no chance that a honest operation will support, Like what happened to a player that was stiffed by Spinpalace only for betting too high.
Bellavegas should pay my winnings. They broke the law knowing the laws in Vgeas because they are a big operation.
I made a honest mistake. I deposited 17 times and got paid 3 times, one time more than $3000. I did not even imagine they are going to use this term against me.
By paying me 3 times and taking my deposits 17 times, by sending offers by email, they showed I am legitimate until I won big. ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: theguru at January 5, 2007, 7:55 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Just want players to be aware of this landmark error in this industry. This unintelligible casino decision was back by a supposed industry watchdog, the Ecogra, which has basically claimed that the casino is able to pick and choose what legitimate gaming laws they are to follow in the state of Las Vegas.
Just a recap, the casino allowed a player from Las Vegas to sign up and gamble at their casino, which according to Las Vegas law is illegal, and then when the player cashed out a large sum said that according to Las Vegas laws a player under the age of 18 is not allowed to gamble online at their casino.
So basically the casino decides to ignore one law and then enforce another.
Ahhhhh what an industry.
Just a friendly reminder to avoid this group of casinos.
Cheers
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| Posted by: joeyl at October 21, 2006, 2:16 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Bump.
Online casinos etc as a whole feel just like Timbie right now - shafted by the suited ones.
The isle of flotsum has just passed a law that states that, if any of the residents of the island gamble in Vegas, they will arrest anyone that has ever worked in a egas onland casino if they float a boat within 4 yards of Father xmas point..
You have been warned.
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| Posted by: joeyl at October 12, 2006, 12:06 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Will Ecogra abide by, if the Americans do ban online gaming transactions between US punters & some gaming est?
Or will they find a way around it?
# I think they should abide by London law and stick to it - ie online gaming is ok. In the same respect this girl should be paid under the UK underage gaming age of 18.
All starts to make sense now no?
If not, I trust Ecogra will instruct Cassava, Ongame & Micro to tow the US line, regardless what these software suppliers have to say?
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| Posted by: caruso at July 24, 2006, 9:53 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by joeyl
The girl was not an underage gambler. She was 19.
Of course - I should have said, use/abuse of the underage gambling clause to oid payment. Clearly it's irrelevant to say someone is "underage" when there is a far more relevant rule which the casino itself is iolating, in accepting a player resident in Nevada.
I would guess / hope that the player has subsequently done well for herself in the gambling biz. She seemed switched on. I'm sure this $20,000 robbery from Bella Vegas will eventually pall into insignificance in her greater scheme of things.
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| Posted by: joeyl at July 24, 2006, 4:36 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
The girl was not an underage gambler. She was 19.
Nevada land gaming laws can't be rightfully applicable online. If not, online gambling must be legal, because it is legal in to gamble onland in Nevada.
All concerned with robbing this girl are cherrypicking to suit themselves, and are participating in the welching of a bet.
No one has produced anything like a credible reason why online gambling firms like Bella should be allowed to cherrypick onland gaming laws to suit.
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| Posted by: caruso at July 24, 2006, 2:49 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Absolutely. These scamsters should be made an example of. At the ery least, the facts of cases like these - abuses of underage gamblers - should be brought to the attention of the US government. This would represent a conflict of interests for the player however, as it'd fuel the fire of the anti-gambling lobby, so I doubt she'd be keen to do that.
I would be, though.
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| Posted by: theguru at July 23, 2006, 5:46 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Maybe the US government will go after the owners of Grand Prive since theres no real regulator in this industry that will stand up for a US citizen that has been ictimized by this unregulated culture.
The issue still remains, Grand Prive knows its illegal to accept play from a Nevada resident, they accept them anyways completely disregarding US law and then have the audacity to use US laws to unjustly confiscate the players money. Must be nice to have your cake and eat it too.
Cheers
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| Posted by: joeyl at July 13, 2006, 5:20 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
This player has still not been paid her 20k winnings won online.
Based upon a law that was written for onland gaming outlets.
The online gaming industry seem to have accepted the confiscation of an 18yr old players winnings based upon laws written to apply onland.
Shame.
Hope you are well Timbie.
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| Posted by: ShivaCasino.com at May 30, 2006, 10:07 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by joeyl
Ecogra have enforced a law that was not written to apply to online gaming.
The Meister should not have rogued Prive for lack of due dilligence re underage gambling.
The player should have been paid re generally accepted u18 , or all Nevadians should not be allowed to gamble online. It's one or the other.
A mess up of the highest proportions by all concerned, folk who should really know better.
Player was a rights...
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| Posted by: joeyl at May 30, 2006, 9:43 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Ecogra have enforced a law that was not written to apply to online gaming.
The Meister should not have rogued Prive for lack of due dilligence re underage gambling.
The player should have been paid re generally accepted u18 , or all Nevadians should not be allowed to gamble online. It's one or the other.
A mess up of the highest proportions by all concerned, folk who should really know better.
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| Posted by: caruso at May 30, 2006, 5:55 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
From a meeting between eCOGRA and Bryan Bailey at the GIGSE:
Quote:
Question from Andrew: When do you think Grand Privé will be removed from the "rogue" list?
My answer: I don't know. That's a toughie.
Question from Caruso: Excuse me, but exactly why the HELL should Privè be considered for removal? What did they do to redress the situation? What changed? Did they pay the girl as we all hoped? Did they pay a charitable organisation as Bryan Bailey recommended?
Is criteria for online casino problems "leave it long enough and those idiot players will just forget all about it"?
Am I really held to be that totally stupid?
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| Posted by: timbie at April 22, 2006, 12:57 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
I don't quite understand why it is unfair to ask the question about eCOGRA
If the casinomeister put a casino in the rogue list and eCOGRA put them under approved casinos then it is more than legit to ask if eCOGRA are honest and fair enough to recommend a casino.
Looking at the casinoemister complaint forum I can see too many complaints that reached the forum, I bet they reached the forums because nothing can be resolved other ways with them.
They are ignorance and rude and eCOGRA recommend them.
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| Posted by: timbie at April 22, 2006, 4:47 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
I played in many online casinos
Musichall goldenreef.. and the whole group would not let me register
That is why I was mad at Bellavegas because they had the 18+ symbol and also the fact they let me register made me understand I am at legal gae for them, and by the way I was until I won the 20K
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| Posted by: caruso at March 31, 2006, 3:39 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Bethug
What took so long? We need pressure from him weeks ago. Anyway maybe they will pay her now.
There is more chance of us hitting the next iceage within the year than of her receiving a cent from Bella Vegas. Bear in mind that Bryan Bailey was pressing for a payment to charity, not the player. At no point was payment to the player being considered an option.
This is my remaining disagreement with Bryan Bailey: there should have been a 50/50 split on the table - all deposits against all winnings, 50% to her, 50% to the casino. Technicaliteis of underage issue notwithstanding, this could have been mooted.
Damian, you posted at SportsBookReview:
http://forum.sportsbookreview.com/showthread.php?t=5860
Maybe you can bump it back to the top with this news, and the link to the rogue listing.
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| Posted by: joeyl at March 30, 2006, 6:18 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Got2Bet
Jeez, Bethug... behind the scenes many of us have been applying pressure for MONTHS... now Meister rogues them publicly and that's all you can say?
How many casinos don't accept Nevada players? Ladbrokes?
To start abiding by Nevada laws and so on right now, is a bit rich, like those operators and software suppliers that have ignored them.
This girl being used as an example by "the industry" is uncalled for.
Pay the girl and stop this nonsense is the only pressure that matters.
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| Posted by: Bethug at March 30, 2006, 5:10 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
If we all get together at one time, I am sure she would have gotten paid sooner. I am glad he rogue them. But it would of been better if it happen sooner. That all I am saying.
Now if all the other webmasters start pulling them and sending a few letters maybe then Grandprive will do the right thing.
Mircogaming need to install a script(which is not hard to do) to erify age with the players Jurisdictions.
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| Posted by: theguru at March 30, 2006, 4:57 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
So now they are Rogued by Casinomeister, what now?
Will the player get paid? Probably not till Microgaming realizes the amont of bad press they are getting.
I still see all the Grand Prive Casinos are listed at the eCOGRA, does that mean that this "regulatory body" supports the casinos actions? If a group that is suppose to regulate lets its members pick and choose what laws they want to abide by, and only abide by such laws when it suits them, then I would say there is not much regulating going on.
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| Posted by: Got2Bet at March 30, 2006, 4:32 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Bethug
What took so long? We need pressure from him weeks ago. Anyway maybe they will pay her now.
Jeez, Bethug... behind the scenes many of us have been applying pressure for MONTHS... now Meister rogues them publicly and that's all you can say?
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| Posted by: caruso at March 30, 2006, 12:01 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
"The has been a major issue brewing since August 2005 involving a under age gambler and Grand Prive casinos. This is a Microgaming group - nine casinos total - and they are eCOGRA certified. Here is the problem in a nutshell:
The player, who resides in Las Vegas, joined each one of these casinos made deposits and occasionally won here and there. She was never asked for her ID, and the fact that she was only 19 was never an issue. But when she made a larger withdrawal, the casino requested her ID. These are required by the agreement that the casino has with eCOGRA. They must ensure that the player is a legitimate person who is lawfully allowed to play. Well, she lives in Nevada, and the gambling age for jurisdiction is 21. So the casino oided her cash-in and returned her deposits. Sounds fair? Well fairness is not the issue here. The issue is a casino's accountability, responsibility, and their relationship with the online casino industry.
The casino failed to do it's due dilig... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: caruso at March 30, 2006, 11:55 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Bella Vegas and the ENTIRE Grand Prive group rogued by Casinomeister:
http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/grandprive.html
Cold "comfort", Timbie, but at least you've helped give them as much bad publicity, of the worst possible kind, that you ever could have.
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| Posted by: caruso at March 28, 2006, 9:36 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by timbie
Thank you Caruso for your time, I read other posts and I understand what you say that there are urgent cases than me and I see how everytime you dig inside to the details of each case
When you spoke to the guys in Ecogra, what was your impression?
Do you have any update ?
eCOGRA report thread.
Or you can jump directly to the section relating exclusively to your case and avoid trawling through all the initial stuff in the Bella Vegas section of eCOGRA report on my blog page.
Basically, no movement. I do undestand eCOGRA's position, but as far as I'm concerned the casino is TOTALLY out of line and should cut you a decent deal on this one, as CPA suggested and I agree would be an acceptable, if far from perfect, resolution.
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| Posted by: timbie at March 28, 2006, 7:39 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Here are the facts to date
Bellavegas claim they protect and accept the laws in Nevada , and that is why my age of 19 is not enough for them, while it is not legal to gamble from Nevada at all
Bellavegas accept players from all 8 States in the USA that prohibit online gambling.
Bellavegas has the symbol 18+ at the bottom left of their home page.
Bellavegas accepted me as a player using my correct information including date of birth letting me deposit 17 times, playing with and without bonuses.
They even process a cashout of more than 5000 USD, and when I won the 20,000 after 4 month of playing there intensively they brought the age issue.
Bellavegas,Casinograndbay,Fortunejunction,Jackpotw heel,Lakepalace,Jupiterclub should be blacklisted and avoided till they pay.
They probably ran out of cash, today it is me that they brough an excuse not to pay, tomorrow it may be someoneelse
To Bellavegas I can p... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: timbie at March 26, 2006, 2:38 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Thank you Caruso for your time, I read other posts and I understand what you say that there are urgent cases than me and I see how everytime you dig inside to the details of each case
When you spoke to the guys in Ecogra, what was your impression?
Do you have any update ?
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| Posted by: theguru at March 18, 2006, 8:04 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Its been said a million times I know, but this is case and point why the online gaming market needs to be legitimately regulated. It is oh so painfully obvious that with the absence of a real regulatory body that human nature leads those with power towards the pursuit of money over common sense and rationality.
I have no idea why some US politicians are so dead set against online gaming. (add sarcasm here)
Until a legitimate set of laws and rules are applied to this industry we will continue to get cases like this where casinos pick and choose what laws they wish to follow.
I applaud all the makeshift regulators of this industry, EGCORA, Casinomeister, and any others, but until there are actual consequences legally we will continue to see such instances as this.
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| Posted by: joeyl at March 17, 2006, 8:47 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
These casinos, software suppliers and their dispute resolution services can't even get a list together of banned jurisdictions Lucky, not even with the help of paid lawyers.
The fact they lose god knows how many Americans, therefore approximately 80%?? of their custom is neither here nor there of course.
Pay the girl, or respect Nevada law and however many states prohibit online gaming.
Or cherrypick for face and profit. Another unforgettable offence by those that should know better.
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| Posted by: luckystrike at March 17, 2006, 12:03 am | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
All i think is this is absolutely absurb. It is Bella Vegas who are to blame here - they are the baddies.... the liars...the thieves! Everyone knows that casinos use those legal terms and conditions to protect themselves from 'outside parties' - using the premise that one is under-age or from a prohibited jurisdiction is just an excuse for not paying - think of it casinos never refund you when you lose and they don't usually have a problem when you win small amounts. Conclusion: Bella Vegas must be in tight pockets and one to avoid - personally I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole now that this has happened.
Also, keep in mind that if a casino really wanted to block registrations from a country it could easily do so by checking the country which the user selected in he registration page, once the player clicks on 'submit', the player could be informed they they do not accept registrations from his country....
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| Posted by: joeyl at March 15, 2006, 12:38 pm | | Topic: Bellavegas won't pay 20K in winnings Forum: Winner Online |
What a can of worms this firm have opened.
I wonder if Moshal could be arrested in Nevada under Nevada law for aiding and abetting, if he landed in Vegas.
Ruth Parasol won't go to America.
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