| Posted by: caruso at July 28, 2007, 7:08 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
This will come as good news to anyone disgusted with Neteller:
Quote:
Neteller has revealed the full extent of the damage done by its withdrawal from the US with a delayed first quarter trading statement released this afternoon.
After restructuring costs of over US$12m and other expenses the company posted a pre-tax loss for the three months to March 2007 of US$14m compared to a profit of US$16m the year previously...
http://www.egrmagazine.com/item/2007/23/5/3
Need to register to read the articles.
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| Posted by: sdaddy at July 27, 2007, 5:23 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
It seems that Neteller is still allowing its merchants to reverse payments to players when the only thing at issue is whether bonus T&Cs were iolated.
The latest case involves Mansion Casino:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...bonus-back.html
In addition, the player makes a strong case that there was no iolation of bonus T&Cs.
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| Posted by: Roulette_Ruby at July 18, 2007, 5:52 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Well I dont know what the fuss is about. I filled out Primecasino.co.uk form and a really nice Account Manager not only gave me a no deposit bonus free but offered me not one but 2 1st deposit bonuses. How could I not accept. And they actually wanted me to deposit in sterling, which is great for me.
I say anyone from the UK at least, there shouldnt be a problem and go to the co.uk site, this offer wasnt available to any Tom Dick or Ruby.
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| Posted by: caruso at June 14, 2007, 2:52 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Yuh, but the player in question lost all interest as soon as he got his money, in typical fashion.
The exact same thing did happen to me, as I've already said. It was a long time ago and it was a double payment, so the reversal was "correct" insofar as I wasn't owed the money. It's also a bitch tracking the transaction now my account has been changed.
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| Posted by: Jetset at June 13, 2007, 10:14 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Nevertheless, the complaint would perhaps have more teeth if submitted by the person who was initially prejudiced by the (apparent) lapse in Neteller's depositing policy (ie the guy who had a deposit from Prime reclaimed after two weeks)
That would represent first hand knowledge and evidence that would be difficult to ignore.
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| Posted by: caruso at June 13, 2007, 11:46 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
It's Neteller's given and declared stance that's in question, not just an uncorroborated 'net post. It conflicts directly with FSA guidelines.
Finally got a response to my email, which says as much as I was told on the phone:
Quote:
Dear Moi,
Thank you for your email of 1 June to the FSA's Independent Complaints Scheme.
The FSA Complaints Scheme (the "Scheme") is a requirement of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 ("FSMA") for the investigation of complaints arising in connection with the FSA's exercise of, or failure to exercise, its functions under FSMA, other than its legislative functions. The rules of the Scheme are set out in COAF - FSA Handbook, which can be iewed on the FSA website at:
http://fsahandbook.info/FSA/html/handbook/COAF
The FSA does not investigate individual complaints made about the firms that it regulates. Any complaint, in the first instance, must be referred to the aut... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GrandMaster at June 11, 2007, 11:49 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso
Well, I emailed the FSA. No response, so phoned them.
Get this: apparently, the FSA doesn't deal with complaints against their "authorised" members. To file a complaint, you have to first contact the company in question for their feedback, and if this is unsatisfactory (see above response, LOL), you complain to the Ombudsman, for Christ's sake.
So what does "authorised and regulated by the FSA" actually mean? Shouldn't that read "Ombudsman"?
This looks like being an excruciating process. If anyone has any pointers, I'm all ears.
The Ombudsman deals with complaints. The FSA authorises companies and individuals to carry out arious financial activities.
You cannot really expect either to do anything just on the basis of a posting on the internet, if the ictim is not willing to file a complaint himself.
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| Posted by: Jetset at June 8, 2007, 2:18 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso
Well, I emailed the FSA. No response, so phoned them.
Get this: apparently, the FSA doesn't deal with complaints against their "authorised" members. To file a complaint, you have to first contact the company in question for their feedback, and if this is unsatisfactory (see above response, LOL), you complain to the Ombudsman, for Christ's sake.
So what does "authorised and regulated by the FSA" actually mean? Shouldn't that read "Ombudsman"?
This looks like being an excruciating process. If anyone has any pointers, I'm all ears.
Frustrating but interesting - these bureaucracies don't give much of a choice but to go where they send you, so it looks like the Ombudsman. I was surprised to learn that the FSA does not handle this stuff directly as the regulator.
BTW Neteller is facing another issue - on identity theft - in Canada now. Apparently an identity thief opene... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: joeyl at June 8, 2007, 7:55 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Not difficult finding the website - http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/Apparently independant, ie set up by the govt. Unlikely they will say anything to you, unless you have specific complaint regarding your own affairs.
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| Posted by: caruso at June 8, 2007, 6:44 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Well, I emailed the FSA. No response, so phoned them.
Get this: apparently, the FSA doesn't deal with complaints against their "authorised" members. To file a complaint, you have to first contact the company in question for their feedback, and if this is unsatisfactory (see above response, LOL), you complain to the Ombudsman, for Christ's sake.
So what does "authorised and regulated by the FSA" actually mean? Shouldn't that read "Ombudsman"?
This looks like being an excruciating process. If anyone has any pointers, I'm all ears.
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at June 4, 2007, 11:39 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by caruso
Fair enough. I'm sure they're hoping just that. I will certainly pass on the fact of the lack of response to media enquiries.
FWIW, they've not totally ignored all requests for information. This was sent to one player (not me):
Quote:
Under our merchant contracts, there are only exception cases where a merchant can withdraw member funds. However, these are ery strict circumstances due to issues such as technical errors. Merchants are not able to withdraw member funds from NETELLER accounts at their own discretion.
The fact that they have chosen to ignore you, while they're happy to waffle a player as above, is worth noting. They presumably think that an enquiry from an "official" source is better ignored than trying to bullsh*t it away like that with fairy stories which are at complete odds with the facts.
I got the same response from Neteller. They are clearly stonewalling.
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| Posted by: Jetset at June 4, 2007, 8:10 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Looks as if the Neteller folks have arbitrarily given themselves another hiatus - until July 13 this time....and note they will not be paying interest on the frozen funds. That will be tough for online players like Isaac Haxton who has over $900 000 tied up with these people.
I think this stinks, but at least US players will get their original funds out....unless there is not a further delay.
Oh yes - and the shares stay suspended!
Press Release
NETELLER Announces Agreed Plan to Return US Customers' Funds
Monday, 4 June 2007
The NETELLER Plc Group (LSE: NLR), the independent global online payments business, today announced that it has agreed to a plan for the distribution of funds to its US customers.
NETELLER is continuing to cooperate with the investigation being conducted by the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York ("USAO"), under the advice of its legal advisers and in accordance w... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at June 2, 2007, 2:34 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
"Waffle" is an apt description of that general and non-specific "explanation" which imo does not in any case fit the Prime Casino dispute.
We've additionally asked (and continue to press for) Neteller to clarify their position on the continued suspension of their shares on the AIM and on the imminent expiration of their 75 day window for paying American players what they are owed.
Again, no response which imo is exceptionally unprofessional for a large financial institution holding cash belonging to members of the online gambling community.
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| Posted by: caruso at June 1, 2007, 2:04 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Fair enough. I'm sure they're hoping just that. I will certainly pass on the fact of the lack of response to media enquiries.
FWIW, they've not totally ignored all requests for information. This was sent to one player (not me):
Quote: Originally Posted by Neteller
Under our merchant contracts, there are only exception cases where a merchant can withdraw member funds. However, these are ery strict circumstances due to issues such as technical errors. Merchants are not able to withdraw member funds from NETELLER accounts at their own discretion.
The fact that they have chosen to ignore you, while they're happy to waffle a player as above, is worth noting. They presumably think that an enquiry from an "official" source is better ignored than trying to bullsh*t it away like that with fairy stories which are at complete odds with the facts.
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| Posted by: Jetset at June 1, 2007, 1:39 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
You can at the same time tell the FSA that Neteller does not respond to repeated media requests for clarity on this - in fact they seem to simply ignore the relevant questions in the hope that these will just go away. We're still trying.
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| Posted by: caruso at May 28, 2007, 12:28 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
I'm looking for a "terms of use" applicable to members. This is as much as I've got:
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/Pages/Doing/R...tcf/index.shtml
Quote:
Outcome 5: Consumers are provided with products that perform as firms have led them to expect, and the associated service is both of an acceptable standard and as they have been led to expect
The "product" - a payment in this case, was made in iolation of the firm's (Neteller's) stated T & C. This is therefore not as one is "led to expect".
I cannot see how this is anything less than an FSA guideline breach.
EDIT: I've tried to summarise the situation as accurately as possible in my Neteller blog article.
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| Posted by: caruso at May 28, 2007, 7:01 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Nice bit of sleuthing from GM. Dominique, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the terms to suggest that. If a player signs up an account, THOSE are the terms he, and Neteller, agree to.
This is what that casino manager said:
Quote:
There is nothing I can do about Neteller "pulling back" payouts. This is something that every Casino is able to do and I don't imagine that it's going to change any time soon.
And:
Quote:
I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.
Whereas Neteller say:
Quote:
You acknowledge and agree that all electronic money purchases, transfers or withdrawals into or out of your Account are final and not reversible.
A Microgaming casino is on a record as effectively saying that Neteller is in breach of its contract with the player, and that he would himself perform this terms-breaching, and most... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jetset at May 28, 2007, 6:31 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandMaster
Interestingly, I have just found this in Neteller's terms of use (UK ersion)
"10.5. You acknowledge and agree that all electronic money purchases, transfers or withdrawals into or out of your Account are final and not reversible. NETELLER cannot arrange for your Account to be refunded where you believe the purchase, transfer or withdrawal was made in error. "
That is ery interesting. Thanks!
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| Posted by: Jetset at May 28, 2007, 6:29 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by Jetset
Kasino King - on the 25 May you posted: "However, in the end he did 'do the right thing' and so avoided getting a 'rogue' tag."
For clarity, and as a distinct element in Prime Casino's action in reclaiming an already credited amount from a player's Neteller account, does the above statement you made mean that the manager at Prime eventually redressed the situation to the player's satisfaction?
Edited to add that this question does not imply that Neteller was in any way right to return money from a player's account without consulting him or her.
Disregard the above, KK - I'm now up to date on this from reading at the other site.
Still no response to a query to Neteller and its PR people despatched this morning.
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at May 28, 2007, 6:28 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Interestingly, I have just found this in Neteller's terms of use (UK ersion):
"10.5. You acknowledge and agree that all electronic money purchases, transfers or withdrawals into or out of your Account are final and not reversible. NETELLER cannot arrange for your Account to be refunded where you believe the purchase, transfer or withdrawal was made in error. "
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| Posted by: dominique at May 28, 2007, 4:17 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
This used to happen with Neteller affiliate payments on a regular basis - a casino would make a mistake in calculating an amount, or mix up payments. Then they would claim the incorrect amount back and send the correct amount. All without any input from the affiliate.
Now, this usually all occurred within a day or two...
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| Posted by: caruso at May 28, 2007, 3:28 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
The issue of Prime Casino is entirely piffling - online casinos confiscating funds is not news. It's an everyday occurance.
The NETELLER issue is a matter of devastating importance, because it is now apparent that Neteller will return to their merchants funds held by their player customers without the players' agreement. I am SURE this is an illegal act under FSA rules, and Neteller is surely therefore committing a prosecutable criminal act.
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| Posted by: Jetset at May 28, 2007, 2:27 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Kasino King - on the 25 May you posted: "However, in the end he did 'do the right thing' and so avoided getting a 'rogue' tag."
For clarity, and as a distinct element in Prime Casino's action in reclaiming an already credited amount from a player's Neteller account, does the above statement you made mean that the manager at Prime eventually redressed the situation to the player's satisfaction?
Edited to add that this question does not imply that Neteller was in any way right to return money from a player's account without consulting him or her.
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| Posted by: Jetset at May 28, 2007, 2:11 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Neteller have not exactly been forthcoming, either directly or through their London PR agency, when we have raised other queries.
I'll give it a try, but I have to say I am not optimistic about getting a useful response. I will direct them to this thread as a reference point.
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| Posted by: Jetset at May 27, 2007, 11:25 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by KasinoKing
Yes, much bigger!
According to the T&C's he should not get any bonus at all unless he signed up to play with $US or $Can.
According to the Prime Manager, all casinos or other merchants who use Neteller have the ability to easily request a 'charge-back' of funds paid into someone's Neteller account. In this particular case, nearly 2 weeks later.
I think this has come as a huge surprise & shock to many players, me included!
It is a shocking revelation, and one that does nothing for the reputation of either Prime (who should have taken the knock for their error and put it down to experience) or Neteller (who should certainly not have returned the cash to them once it had been credited to the player - and without even telling the player!)
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at May 27, 2007, 5:24 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by KasinoKing
According to the Prime Manager, all casinos or other merchants who use Neteller have the ability to easily request a 'charge-back' of funds paid into someone's Neteller account. In this particular case, nearly 2 weeks later.
I think this has come as a huge surprise & shock to many players, me included!
The morale of the story is that if you still want to play at Prime, don't use Neteller. Deposit by credit card, that way if there are any problems, you can make a chargeback, and I am sure the manager will be ery understanding.
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| Posted by: KarsinoOng at May 27, 2007, 4:54 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by KasinoKing
....According to the Prime Manager, all casinos or other merchants who use Neteller have the ability to easily request a 'charge-back' of funds paid into someone's Neteller account. In this particular case, nearly 2 weeks later.
I think this has come as a huge surprise & shock to many players, me included!
Hi KasinoKing, Your website is quite informative and I trust your website. So if the casino credit money into our neteller account, then we should quickly withdraw the money.
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| Posted by: KasinoKing at May 27, 2007, 4:07 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandMaster
He got a bigger bonus than the casino thinks he should have been entitle to.
Yes, much bigger!
According to the T&C's he should not get any bonus at all unless he signed up to play with $US or $Can.
Quote: Originally Posted by KarsinoOng
After paying into the client's neteller acct, I am quite surprise the casino can withdraw the money out of a clients neteller acct.
According to the Prime Manager, all casinos or other merchants who use Neteller have the ability to easily request a 'charge-back' of funds paid into someone's Neteller account. In this particular case, nearly 2 weeks later.
I think this has come as a huge surprise & shock to many players, me included!
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at May 27, 2007, 1:56 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by KarsinoOng
Hi,
I am curious.
I was just wondering how Tamas1 could abuse the bonus system if he open an account in GBP.
Thanks
He got a bigger bonus than the casino thinks he should have been entitled to.
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| Posted by: KarsinoOng at May 27, 2007, 1:14 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by KasinoKing
....Prime paid a player a 4-figure sum to his Neteller account, then nearly 2 weeks later decided he had broken their T&C's, took the money back, and confiscated the winnings!
.........[/URL]
After paying into the client's neteller acct, I am quite surprise the casino can withdraw the money out of a clients neteller acct.
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| Posted by: KarsinoOng at May 26, 2007, 9:00 pm | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandMaster
Welcome to the forum. Tamas1. It was a mistake to open an account in GBP, it can get you labelled a "bonus abuser". In my opinion it is clear that casino would want you to open an account in USD or CAD, but there is nothing in the conditions you quoted that would justify confiscating your winnings if you play in GBP.
Hi,
I am curious.
I was just wondering how Tamas1 could abuse the bonus system if he open an account in GBP.
Thanks
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| Posted by: KasinoKing at May 26, 2007, 1:59 am | | Topic: Prime casino doesn't pay my winnings Forum: Winner Online |
Quote: Originally Posted by bonuslover
What he do to you?
I didn't say he did anything to me, did I?
Prime paid a player a 4-figure sum to his Neteller account, then nearly 2 weeks later decided he had broken their T&C's, took the money back, and confiscated the winnings!
The manager seemed to think this was perfectly fair & reasonable.
However, in the end he did 'do the right thing' and so avoided getting a 'rogue' tag.
BTW, I found out what the 'link' is to Spin Palace, since you decided to ignore my question:
They use the same customer support services.
My understanding is that is as far as the link goes. I believe Prime Casino is owned & managed completely independently from any other casino, though they do have their own Poker site & scratchcard site.
_______________
KasinoKing.co.uk
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