| Posted by: Kj Sexton at December 23, 2005, 7:16 am | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
One of the best tells I've come across is how much your opponett is watching you. It seems for the most part those who watch you like a hawk through out the hand are bluffing. (Unless we're talking Mr. Poker Champion , you can never tell with those guys) Though Poker like all things in life is all about timing & position.
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| Posted by: Bill_Hollorian at December 22, 2005, 8:33 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
Actually, Tenbob, I do agree with what you said there...
If it is an exercise to isolate a certain portion of the game to analyze it more efectively I agree. I think it can be a alid study tool.
But only for study!
Bill
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| Posted by: Bill_Hollorian at December 22, 2005, 7:12 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
Good arguments, but...
Poker is based on imperfect and incomplete information. Having less information because you do not look at your cards is ridiculous. You can make the same move, after looking at your cards whatever their alue is.
2.) Betting a guy off of a weak ulnerable hand is not magic... If you feel he missed simply bet an appropriate bet, and you will get him off his hand. Let's say you dont look, and it turns out you had KK, which improved to a set on the flop., but you havent looked yet. How do you gauge if you are extacting full alue on the hand?
3.) Being a game of imperfect information, using your hole cards in any position can help you GIVE information to your opponent to help him process incorrectly. In other words, looking at your hand helps you manipulate information for him to make mistakes with.
3.) Doyle is talking about "real" no limit cash holdem. In real no limit you can rebuy for as much as you want. Therfore, if your "... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: tenbob at December 22, 2005, 11:12 am | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Bill_Hollorian
Ridiculous...
Doyle can do it, Daniel can do it... The rest of us can not, and should not.
Oh unless, you play in the same games they do...
Bill
I dont usually disagree with you Bill, but on this occasion i feel that i must. The excercise in position i talked about was for a small buy-in online sit and go. This is not about winning the game, in fact youll lose, quiet quickly. Its about attempting to concentrate your mind on what exactly table position means, attempting to get an idea of how important the action in front of you is. The fact is when you play JUST your table position you tend to concentrate more on it. You will also pick up much more on betting patterns. This stuff should all be used in conjunction with seeing you cards of course, its just an excercise, too many players especially online ignore this stuff, and ONLY play their own cards !
We are players here that are attempting to learn t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jesus Lederer at December 21, 2005, 10:28 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
I guess iīm getting in trouble but i disagree with you Bill.
Why we shouldnīt consider some factors like position, table image, and reads like styles and betting patterns (i know tells are a factor, but they arenīt so important as they seem. In my opinion people in general overvalue them. The "real tells" are betting patterns. If the tell confirm your completely read, then go and do the move without any doubt), instead of just playing depending of the alue of our hands?
Of course i know that if weīre talking about microlimits you cannot apply those strategies, because nobody uses position and you donīt have any table image. In relation to betting patterns, they are almost the same at those limits so you should just stick to the same strategie (ultra tight-ultra aggressive and never bluff).
I know that we donīt play in the same games Doyle and Daniel do, but in my opinion at any normal quality game we should try playing something else than our cardsīs alue. I donīt say that you sh... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Bill_Hollorian at December 20, 2005, 6:32 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
Ridiculous...
Doyle can do it, Daniel can do it... The rest of us can not, and should not.
Oh unless, you play in the same games they do...
Bill
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| Posted by: tenbob at December 20, 2005, 12:16 am | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by gfpokerfan
For this thread I guess you would just fire out a bet and don't peek.
Dont ya just love it !!!! The fact is this can be done, but the table conditions have to be correct. If your the big stack near the bubble, on the button with 2 short(ish) but not desperate stacks in the blinds, then yep fire away at them. Your cards dont even matter, make sure that the blinds dont know that you hav'nt seen them thought
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| Posted by: titans4ever at December 19, 2005, 9:18 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
The other reason you don't look at your cards until your turn is so you don't give away any tells about your hand. You peek and act. No way to give away any information.
For this thread I guess you would just fire out a bet and don't peek.
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| Posted by: juiceeQ at December 19, 2005, 9:07 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
I don't play live ery often, and I'm usually a bit nervous when I do. I didn't even think to look and watch my opponents ery closely until it got to my turn to act. I remember tenbob (I think) posted somewhere that you should watch the players before you even look at your cards, because then you can pay closer attention to your opponents tells. If you look at your cards before hand, then you are already thinking of your course of action. Useful information, and I intend to apply it to my play next time I take a drive over to the local Indian Casino!
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| Posted by: titans4ever at December 19, 2005, 8:35 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
In NL you can play no peek in late position with a hand and be amazed at what will fold. It is a poker delemma. You have 2 cards, the math that you will get a pair on the flop is about 38% but that is the same for your opponent. Forget about flush or straight draws since you can make the pot odds not there to chase with your continuation bet after the flop. You bet it out and the person you are playing against more often than not has not improved.
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| Posted by: trentonlf at December 19, 2005, 6:58 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
I read something once by Phil Gordon saying the same thing. he said to sit at a ring game and only play postional hands without looking at your cards and you would find yourself winning more than you would think.
g/l
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| Posted by: tenbob at December 19, 2005, 3:33 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
Its so true though. Try it, ive done it a few times, enter a small sit and go, and cover your cards (dont cheat) and simply play you position. You'll be suprised at how far you can get. Great learning excercise. Dont do it in a $50 sit and go though, that would be stupid.
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| Posted by: t1riel at December 19, 2005, 2:42 pm | | Topic: Win Without Looking At Your Cards Forum: Card Chat |
I was reading an article by DANIEL NEGREANU (again) and it was about how you could win against another player without looking at your cards. The key points he mentioned were:
Position. It is a huge advantage to see the other player (s) actions before you avt. Check, bet, or even overbet the pots will give you key information as to the strength of their hands. You can use your position to steal pots.
Reading tells. If you focus and pay attention, you'll pick up player information you don't even realize like how a player bets his chips a certain way.
Scare cards. I'll quote a story he uses as an example to explain this.
"Doyle Brunson is a master at combining position and reading tells to determine the strength of his opponent's hand. Yet there is one more piece to the puzzle. Doyle can get inside his opponent's head and figure out what he's holding.
Let's say, for example, Doyle calls a tight, conservative player who raised from early position. Doyle won... | | Read Entire Entry |
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