| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at November 5, 2006, 12:54 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Yeah, in essence he's taken a good point and twisted it to the realms of ridiculousness.
To compare, getting some exercise every day is a good idea, but exercising intensively for 24 hours a day probably isn't.
His little summary thing is so ridiculous it was impossible ("You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose"? lol) for me not to comment on it.
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| Posted by: Irexes at November 5, 2006, 10:33 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I said a few times there's a kernel of truth in taking the implied odds into account when calling raises preflop (under certain circumstances).
It's the psychology of odd numbers beings higher and folding AJ, AQ, KQ, JJ to avoid trouble that I find bizarre. Yes they can get you in troube, but the answer isn't folding them.
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| Posted by: zinzan1000 at November 5, 2006, 1:19 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I only spotted this thread 30 mins ago as I have been away.
It rather amazes me and at the same time fills me with joy that the majority of you appear to be against what Allsopp is saying.
Amazed because you tend to pick the bones out of tiny morsels of what he is saying and don't comment fully on his entire posts ( something that happens alot around here unfortunately ) and the fact that a lot of you iew it as something new or offbeat, I'm stunned.
It fills me with joy because like you said Allsopp, if most players stick to their usual game there is more picking out there for this strategy to be successful, and I know for a fact there is nothing new about this strategy.
On a sadder note, on more than one occasion you explained fully, when,where,how,who,right time, wrong time, etc etc etc when to employ this type of play but nobody seemed to be able to remember that part.
Never mind though, I did, and like you said, if they don't want to use it, no problem.
Have a +rep on me.
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| Posted by: mrsnake3695 at November 4, 2006, 9:47 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I think some of you guys are missing allsop's point. I also think that this is advice primarily for no-limit cash ring games, not MTTs which require arying styles at different times.
He actually gives some ery good advice for no limit cash games which I think should not be dismissed out of hand like some of you are doing.
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| Posted by: withawedge at November 2, 2006, 3:00 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Allsop
Quote:
Its like when you play a tournament and someone raises 4 times the BB, I'll call them off in late position with pretty much anything. When a raggy board comes down they will bet the pot exactly. I mean its funny, if the pot was 643.6218942 they would bet 643.6218942. Call that bet and 9 times out of 10 they will check the turn. You bet and they fold.
If you were playing me or plenty of others, in the above scenario, you would probably be facing JJ etc etc. Assuming BB was at say 1k. Are you really saying that if I put 4k in the middle you would call with say 8, 4os.
What happens when the flop is bet and then the turn.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at November 2, 2006, 1:30 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
What I think he is saying is if you are sitting with say AQ u r less likely to use his way because u could be up against AA, AK, KK, QQ - obviously a bad position to be in and these are the kind of hands that people are more likely to raise with??? Where this would fall down would be if the raiser was sitting with TT against your AQ - what happens then???
However, if u r sitting with say 67s I think u would actually be in better shape, all be it only slightly (in the 4 examples I have given, your AQ is massivley dominated by AA, AK, QQ - I think 67s would be in a better position?)
So, in effect, I think he means to carry out this play do not use AQ, AJ, KQ, or, I would guess, a low pp? or would Allsopp always call a raise with a low pp? I don`t know.
I still don`t agree 100%, but in the same way as limping in from early position with 22 every other hand or so, I think it could have its place - unfortunatly, not for me, I hasten to add - I aint got the balls!!!
Ronalda... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Allsopp at November 2, 2006, 2:46 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Ahh and just to clarify. This style of play probably wouldnt work at micro limits but I dont know as I haven't tried it there.
Upwards of 1/2 $ No limit 8-10 handed and you'll do just fine as the majority of players are ery tight and like to protect their hands whilst at the same time will gladly fold if they miss wide and wont try and make plays against you bullying them.
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at November 1, 2006, 11:11 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Ok I can't be arsed going into great detail so here's a summary of your summary as I see it.
Quote:
1. You can never be fully sure what your opponent has.
Do I get free holecard reader software when I start using your strategy then? Otherwise, how does it improve my hand-reading ability?
Quote:
2. You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose.
Yes you can, rather easily. You've obviously been playing with TAGs so long you've forgotten that calling stations and suchlike exist. In fact, you place such emphasis on using your strategy on TAGs after using some metagame to turn them into calling stations, umm, why not just play calling stations in the first place?
Quote:
3. When you get a badbeat it cripples you.
A bad beat is a sign that you've got your money in while ahead, and therefore a sign that over many repetitions of the same event you will make money as your actual profit from the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Irexes at November 1, 2006, 10:44 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote:
2. You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose.
If I didn't know better I would think you were winding us up
Your case for this style of play is somewhat undermined by the lack of evidence.
Have you got any figures at all to justify this? How many bb do you make for every 100 hands?
(this doesn't include telling us that 3bb/100 is psychologically greater than 6bb/100)
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| Posted by: Allsopp at November 1, 2006, 10:23 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I didn't post to justify my style of play. If we all played in the same way nobody would ever win anything. I posted to explain how I play and why Ronald might be experiencing some loses.
Some Pro's will tell you that a tight aggressive style of play is the perfect style. Many other pro's wont. As you say there is no correct way to play, but many players dont play a ery good Tight aggressive style, they are like robots and cant lay down hands and raise robotic pre calculated amounts for given situations.
Its like when you play a tournament and someone raises 4 times the BB, I'll call them off in late position with pretty much anything. When a raggy board comes down they will bet the pot exactly. I mean its funny, if the pot was 643.6218942 they would bet 643.6218942. Call that bet and 9 times out of 10 they will check the turn. You bet and they fold.
I dont care whether you agree with me, I never posted expecting anyone to anyway. Because generally people are stubborn. But f... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: gord962 at November 1, 2006, 10:14 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
Poker isn't about odds and percentages because you tend to lose alot more than you win with hands that suggest you should play odds and percentages.
Sounds like a new signature line for DM to me!!!
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| Posted by: Jack Daniels at November 1, 2006, 10:09 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Nice post Chuck. I think you've done a great job at bridging the playing style gap and defining why some people think / play the way they do and others think / play the way that they do.
You amd Twizzy are right, too, that there are many styles out there. I don't really even believe that a player even has to find their style, but instead they need to find their styles. I think that a good poker player will have one generally underlying style that defines him, but at the tables they actually have multiple playing styles that are ariations/derivatives of that underlying style which ultimately allow for certain flucuations/modifications. Most of this is seen in the oft given advice of mixing up your game play to keep from being read. Often, when people mix up their play, they are still working within the limits of the styles that they've determined/found to work best for them. Essentially they mix up their play within their own comfort zones. Anyway, I'm getting a little of topic and into what cou... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ChuckTs at November 1, 2006, 9:47 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
Poker isn't about odds and percentages because you tend to lose alot more than you win with hands that suggest you should play odds and percentages.
The swings are far more severe for a tight aggressive player than for a player like me. Simply because they are inclined to take more badbeats than I am and rely on CARDS to win cash. Whereas I rely on situations and capitalising on weakness.
Here is where I have to disagree with you.
Quote:
Poker isn't about odds and percentages because you tend to lose alot more than you win with hands that suggest you should play odds and percentages.
How is that?
Quote:
The swings are far more severe for a tight aggressive player than for a player like me. Simply because they are inclined to take more badbeats than I am and rely on CARDS to win cash.
Dan Harrington is tight-aggressive; does he rely on CARDS alone to win cash?
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| Posted by: twizzybop at November 1, 2006, 9:08 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
Poker isn't about odds and percentages because you tend to lose alot more than you win with hands that suggest you should play odds and percentages.
The swings are far more severe for a tight aggressive player than for a player like me. Simply because they are inclined to take more badbeats than I am and rely on CARDS to win cash. Whereas I rely on situations and capitalising on weakness.
Its hard for many to grasp why how I play is the perfect way to play because you've programmed your brains into thinking premium hands are the way to go. Problem is, most players play this style online these days and therefore in order to be profitable, you have to counter the majority and work at busting as many people as possible. Its not that hard a concept. But it is difficult to put it into practice.
No! the swings are far more severe for a maniac, always has been and always will be. Odds and percentages will always favor the tight ag... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Allsopp at November 1, 2006, 4:01 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Poker isn't about odds and percentages because you tend to lose alot more than you win with hands that suggest you should play odds and percentages.
The swings are far more severe for a tight aggressive player than for a player like me. Simply because they are inclined to take more badbeats than I am and rely on CARDS to win cash. Whereas I rely on situations and capitalising on weakness.
Its hard for many to grasp why how I play is the perfect way to play because you've programmed your brains into thinking premium hands are the way to go. Problem is, most players play this style online these days and therefore in order to be profitable, you have to counter the majority and work at busting as many people as possible. Its not that hard a concept. But it is difficult to put it into practice.
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| Posted by: twizzybop at November 1, 2006, 4:00 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
It isn't about odds and percentages?? Then why you know about 3:1 to call with 7,2 s A,Q.
My brother in law plays this style at our home games. Problem with the style is the fluctuation in your bankroll, not to mention the so called tight-aggresive people.
One thing though you did mention and hit the nail on the head with was bad beats can and do happen. This is where emotions should not enter the picture and ones ego has to be let go as well.
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| Posted by: Irexes at November 1, 2006, 12:38 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
This is called psychological pricing in business.
For example someone is more likely to buy a product for £11.99 than £10.80 because £11.99 is psychologically cheaper than £10.80 when in actual fact it isn't. This is true in all areas of business and as a result I employ it in poker also.
I try to gain as many edges as I can when playing. I believe this to be an edge so I employ it...
The psychology of pricing extends to shaving a penny off of items so they seem cheaper I don't think it extends to making £11.99 seem less than £10.80.
As was said a lot earlier in the thread, there is something in what you say in calling a raise with less than premium cards in certain ery specific circumstances, but to complement this by limping lots of hands, betting lots of flops and folding AQ, KQ, JJ is off beam.
Any stats for this? VPIP, bb/100? PFR?
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| Posted by: Allsopp at November 1, 2006, 12:25 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I didn't say fold hands to avoid getting sucked out on. I said fold "premium hands" such as KQ, AQ, AJ, JJ to any raise to ensure your cards are live. Since people generally raise with these hands and better, you want to ensure that your not dominated or drawing dead because there are much better spots to get your money in with.
As for the second point. Even numbers are psychologically large than odd numbers.
This is called psychological pricing in business.
For example someone is more likely to buy a product for £11.99 than £10.80 because £11.99 is psychologically cheaper than £10.80 when in actual fact it isn't. This is true in all areas of business and as a result I employ it in poker also.
I try to gain as many edges as I can when playing. I believe this to be an edge so I employ it...
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| Posted by: Irexes at October 31, 2006, 7:38 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
I also bet even numbers because even numbers are psychologically higher than uneven. For example if a pot is $7, I would be $6.20 as opposed to $5.30
I was with you on the first post up to a point.
The second got less convincing when you advocate folding strong hands to avoid getting sucked out (surely your table image makes these highly profitable?)
And with the quote above you lost me I'm afraid.
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| Posted by: Allsopp at October 31, 2006, 3:46 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Hi, your right about having to know the odds. If you try to chase everything using this style of play you'll just go broke quickly.
As for how many flops I see, well I see quite alot but only because I limp from late position alot. I wont feel the need to jump into raised pots with "premium" hands unless they are something special and as a result can afford to see more flops.
I usually bet about 2/3 the pot to pick it up. This convasses a pot steal and also throws the opponent off. I also bet even numbers because even numbers are psychologically higher than uneven. For example if a pot is $7, I would be $6.20 as opposed to $5.30
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| Posted by: Bombjack at October 31, 2006, 11:43 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
Statistically AK offsuit is only a 3 to 1 favourite against 7 2 offsuit. Food for thought? The odds dont play as big apart in poker as most make you believe.
AK's actually only a 2 to 1 favourite over 72o, if you're all-in pre-flop.
Trouble is though, are you calling a bet on a flop of Q-9-2 with your 7-2o, which is ahead of AK at this point? Even if you do call, I can't see that you'd be able to raise or bet with it on the turn or river, and you can still get outdrawn and have no clue where you are, so the amount of alue you get for your hand is severely limited even if you go to showdown.
Also, because you only see 3 of the 5 community cards to start with, you're less likely to make any sort of hand on the flop than the 2 to 1 suggests, because you can't call a bet here and see the other cards. I realise you're not suggesting playing 72o, but suited connectors where you hit 2 pair + or a big draw.
What you're sa... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Allsopp at October 31, 2006, 3:18 am | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Ok mate, well if you want to give it a try you need some more tips. We all know that staying tight is the best way to protect your stack. This is also essential when your a "loose" player.
I consider myself a "loose" tight player even though by definition that would contradict itself!
Basically, you personify yourself as a maniac when in actual fact you are the most thoughtful and calculated person at the table. You are only considered a maniac because you dont play "textbook" poker like most do and lose in the longrun. You need to show alot of discipline to pull this off because you need to forget everything you thought you knew about playing winning poker [tight aggressive style]
In order to be successful you basically need to maintain your chipstack and dish out badbeats. This can be done by folding to raises with most "premium" hands from any position. The reasoning behind this is, people generally raise with big cards or pairs. Sinc... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Allsopp at October 30, 2006, 10:49 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Ok, what I will say is, unless you have been playing poker a while and have a big bankroll this strategy will not work. It doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not - but it is a successful winning style because the majority of players that play poker will put it all in with top pair ery good kicker or a big pocket pair.
How many times do you remember losing your entire stack to a rag hand when you had a premium hand? Well, how about if there was a style of play geared towards busting people using rag hands? Ever wondered whether the players you call fish are actually fish? Or just ery good poker players...
You wouldn't call any of the players in High Stakes Poker fish would you? Well they will all tell you similar to what I will tell you.
Forget your $1 Ebay tight aggressive E-Books. You can take people for much more money defying odds than relying on them for long term success.
As chuck says, unless you have a big stack its hard to make this work in tournamen... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ChuckTs at October 29, 2006, 5:54 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Daniels
2. Pot odds are the same no matter how you play. Poker is a game of mistakes. If your odds are 8 to 1 and pot odds are 2 to 1, then calling is long term -EV. It doesn't matter if you're a pro or a donk, it is -EV.
Considering pot odds only, this is true. You have to remember implied odds too though - if your opponent is loose enough and you think you can squeeze enough out of him to make your call a 'good' one, then by all means call. In your situation (getting 8:1 drawing, and 2:1 on your money) I'd most probably fold, but just remember that bad pot odds don't necessarily mean you should fold. I'll call a flush draw with 3:1 or even 2:1 if I think my opponent will pay me off.
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| Posted by: ChuckTs at October 29, 2006, 5:41 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I personally don't use that Doyle Brunson-esque style, but it does work. Big pairs and TPTK type hands give implied odds when your opponent is a donk, and when you do hit with your suited connectors, you can win huge pots because these people will pay you off.
My argument is that in online tournaments you don't have time to be dicking around and calling 6BB raises with suited connectors, and especially not with one-gapper unsuited hands like 64. Blinds rise too quickly to be messing around with these hands. Cash games, sure, but you need to make sure you have a ery good read on your opponent, and have ery good hand reading skills in general which is ery hard online.
What happens when you hit a 248 flop with 78? You might gamble with it and get some chips in the middle if you think your opponent has a big ace, but what if he has an overpair? You're probably going to lose a decent pot. That's why you need an excellent read on your opponent which I think that most of us at our level don't... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: twizzybop at October 29, 2006, 5:12 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Agreed but calling in hoping your opponents don't hit or calling cause it is suited connectors from the blind is sort of ludicrious. You are hoping the 6X BB raise is only from a hand holding of a,k or a,q. You don't know if they have aa's, kk's, qq's, jj's, 10's, 99's or even 88's and 77's. If you are calling with 7'8 suited and they made that strong of a pre-flop bet. You are hoping they don't hit a set while you hit a pair?
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| Posted by: F Paulsson at October 29, 2006, 4:08 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
I'm with the "element of truth" crowd. In order to be successful in playing like this, though, you need to bluff more than occasionally. You're hoping to stack the other player, but if you only check-raise all-in on the flop (or whatever) when you have the nuts or close to it, good players will simply just start to fold when that happens. So you need to have the guts to bluff with 4-high from time to time, and get stacked yourself when you walk into someone who actually does call with his A-high.
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| Posted by: MrSticker at October 29, 2006, 3:30 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Allsopp's attitude is ery, ery loose. This does work for pros like Gus Hansen and Gavin Smith. But for 99.9% of players, this blanket looseness is big trouble. Even Gus & Gavin know when to back off.
When I run into players like this, my notes are something like "likes 2 see flops, relies on luck, alwys rz ur premiums- no slwply".
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| Posted by: Irexes at October 29, 2006, 2:44 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Sane as JD, there's an element of truth to what he says but if he applies that thinking it's long term -EV.
Pot odds works no matter how people play. I think you may be missing something about their application if you think they don't.
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| Posted by: Jack Daniels at October 29, 2006, 2:15 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Yes, I don't not not agree. LOL
I guess I'm agreeing with you, but I'm acknowledging that there are bits of truth in Allsopp's post. However, his bits of knowledge are incomplete and his theory flawed.
You win and get my ote.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at October 29, 2006, 2:02 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Daniels
Key points:
1. Poker includes luck it is not just luck.
2. Pot odds are the same no matter how you play. Poker is a game of mistakes. If your odds are 8 to 1 and pot odds are 2 to 1, then calling is long term -EV. It doesn't matter if you're a pro or a donk, it is -EV.
3. Calling with any two cards you think are live will pan out to be -EV.
4. Poker is about both odds and people/how they act. Not just one or the other. Oh yeah, sometimes the cards do matter too.
So u don`t agree either???
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| Posted by: Jack Daniels at October 29, 2006, 1:56 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
In one of my recent threads I got this from Allsopp. I`m not being funny or disrespectfull, but I don`t think this play could ever work long term. If it does, the amount of times I have had a rant about poker being luck would hold up. I have said before, pot odds will only work if everyone is playing a similar way.
Let me have your thoughts guys!!!
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
If your raising 6 times the BB preflop, thats why your getting called by crap.
I regularly make this play because people give their hands away with a raise such as that.
I'll pretty much call any raise like this if I think I have two live cards [hands such as 67,75,24,46 etc etc] so long as they are in some way connected.
Simply because I know that they are going to find it hard to let go of their hand. So, if I hit - I can bust them and take their entire stack.
Poker isnt so much about odds, its abo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ronaldadio at October 29, 2006, 1:34 pm | | Topic: Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!! Forum: Card Chat |
In one of my recent threads I got this from Allsopp. I`m not being funny or disrespectfull, but I don`t think this play could ever work long term. If it does, the amount of times I have had a rant about poker being luck would hold up. I have said before, pot odds will only work if everyone is playing a similar way.
Let me have your thoughts guys!!!
Quote: Originally Posted by Allsopp
If your raising 6 times the BB preflop, thats why your getting called by crap.
I regularly make this play because people give their hands away with a raise such as that.
I'll pretty much call any raise like this if I think I have two live cards [hands such as 67,75,24,46 etc etc] so long as they are in some way connected.
Simply because I know that they are going to find it hard to let go of their hand. So, if I hit - I can bust them and take their entire stack.
Poker isnt so much about odds, its about people and how they act. Then playing accordingly to... | | Read Entire Entry |
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