| Posted by: Dashir at March 23, 2007, 7:40 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
I think the pot size has to enter into the calcuations. If there a flush or straight draw out there, you can't give them the odds to call. So in the this example...
Quote: Originally Posted by tosborn
Example 1
preflop...........
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
(12BB in pot)
flop........
Villain 1 checks
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
turn.........
That post flop bet is giving the drawers good odds (3BB s 12 or 15 for Villian 2). You're making the flush draw the correct play. I would bet 6BB here so if they want to draw, they have to pay over the long run since 6BB s 18 isn't quite enough to make the draw profitable.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 22, 2007, 6:54 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Bombjack
In fruitypro's blog he's using it in my interpretation, as in re-raise, not by any particular amount although pot-size is assumed.
I've watched most of GP's ideos on Cardrunners and I've no reason to think he means anything other than re-raising, unless he describes it somewhere in the way you're thinking?
well of course 3 betting is re-raising, I never said it wasn't but it is a specific amount its 3x the original bet. I think 3 betting the blind is fine but thats basically a pot raise preflop. I assumed you all knew I meant with raise in front of you, kinda hard to 3 bet when you are 1st to act
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 22, 2007, 6:51 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by alan1983
But when you say 3 betting is pot size heads up, then youre no longer talking about 3 betting, youre talking about seeing the pot size and betting accordingly according to outs.
Very few bet more than pot anyway, and in ery few cases, so if 3 betting is betting pot, i dont see how that makes pot sizes any smaller, i rarely see any bets over pot size.
And for example, if you have 5 people who called that 6$ raise preflop, and he now bets 6$, and 3 fold to you. Then you wouldnt 3 bet? but bet more according to pot?
So basically its just going back to odds.
When 3 betting gives him odds to chase, you dont do it. When it doesnt, you do. So i dont see how its a separate strategy. Maybe im just not getting it...
3 betting is really a preflop strategy mostly, after the flop you have to play your hand accordingly. Also its a strategy that needs a bet in front of you, if you are 1st to open then its ok to 3 bet the... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: tosborn at March 22, 2007, 6:49 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Keep in mind that this is going to be our basic betting strategy. All good players will mix things up a bit. The idea is to disguise our hand to the best of our ability while still building the pot. We do want to take down as much as possible obviously.
My general rule of thumb is to control the betting (ie. no check/raising) Show as much aggression as possible while maintaining a large range of hands that illain can put us on.
I like it also because it always gives an out. I have seen enough hands to say that this style does control the betting. Slightly better hands will not go over the top as often. They must be more cautious.
The idea is to get to the river. Then we have a number of bets at our disposal. Check/raise/pot/push.
As far as semi-bluffs and reraises are concerned, we are not in any different position than we would have been in if we had just layed down an overbet and got shoved.
I'm going to try it for a little longer, but, so far I like the st... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: joosebuck at March 22, 2007, 6:47 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
i think that's a pretty insignificant point to debate in this. im more interested in the incorporation of deception when playing this way.
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| Posted by: Bombjack at March 22, 2007, 6:47 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
In fruitypro's blog he's using it in my interpretation, as in re-raise, not by any particular amount although pot-size is assumed.
I've watched most of GP's ideos on Cardrunners and I've no reason to think he means anything other than re-raising, unless he describes it somewhere in the way you're thinking?
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 22, 2007, 6:41 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Lo-Dog
Actually its not just a limit term. To 3-bet is exactly what bomb said. There was a thread a while ago by dbitel about 3-bet light, which is reraising with a marginal hand.
I think the ideo is making up a term for what he is doing but when you say 3-bet most people will think what bomb said.
yes I realize that and I dont argue that point at all, and know that. But I thought I made it pretty clear what I meant when I said it. I know what the general meaning of making a 3 bet is but the way I explained it was for a no limit game and thought it was pretty clear. guess not.
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| Posted by: alan1983 at March 22, 2007, 6:37 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
But when you say 3 betting is pot size heads up, then youre no longer talking about 3 betting, youre talking about seeing the pot size and betting accordingly according to outs.
Very few bet more than pot anyway, and in ery few cases, so if 3 betting is betting pot, i dont see how that makes pot sizes any smaller, i rarely see any bets over pot size.
And for example, if you have 5 people who called that 6$ raise preflop, and he now bets 6$, and 3 fold to you. Then you wouldnt 3 bet? but bet more according to pot?
So basically its just going back to odds.
When 3 betting gives him odds to chase, you dont do it. When it doesnt, you do. So i dont see how its a separate strategy. Maybe im just not getting it...
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| Posted by: Lo-Dog at March 22, 2007, 6:36 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
the way you mean it is meant for limit poker because in limit poker the betting is capped after 4 bets in no limit there is no cap, you could re-raise 100 times back in forth in no limit poker, there is no cap. If the blinds were 1/2 and we each had 10k in our stacks we could re-raise eachother by $3 over and over. The term you are using is a limit poker term.
Actually its not just a limit term. To 3-bet is exactly what bomb said. There was a thread a while ago by dbitel about 3-bet light, which is reraising with a marginal hand.
I think the ideo is making up a term for what he is doing but when you say 3-bet most people will think what bomb said.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 22, 2007, 6:36 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
maybe this link will help you out to explain.
Fruitypro's Poker Blog: October 2006
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| Posted by: joosebuck at March 22, 2007, 6:35 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
woo im right for once.
my only question is how we incorporate deception into this, storms? 3betting wont get a lot of semibluff hands to fold. and our line will be so predictable by then as we only 3bet with out strong hands
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 22, 2007, 6:25 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Bombjack
Interesting thread, but you've mis-understood what 3-betting is. 3-betting is just re-raising. 1st bet is a "1-bet", raise is a "2-bet", and re-raise is "3-bet". Pre-flop the blind (or calling the blind) is the 1-bet. First raise is a 2-bet. So a 3-bet pre-flop is just any re-raise. Typically this is pot-size, which just happens to normally be about 3 times the size of the raise before you.
LOL, yes I know what 3 betting in limit poker is.
Trust me I don't misunderstand what he means, I have the ideo's and watch how they do it.
3 betting in no limit is taking the 1st bet and multiplying it by 3 and re-raising that much. Trust me I watch them do this every tourney or cash game they are in. I know exactly what I mean when I say it.
the way you mean it is meant for limit poker because in limit poker the betting is capped after 4 bets in no limit there is no cap, you could re-raise 100 ti... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: edge-t at March 22, 2007, 6:10 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
I always thought 3-bet is a limit holdem term. bet, re-raise, afterwhich comes 3-bet... guess it makes sense for NL too.
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| Posted by: Bombjack at March 22, 2007, 6:06 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
Taylor and his group of teachers 3-bet alot, what is 3 betting you may ask. Im soooo glad you did, basically it is betting 3x the blind or the bet in front of you.
Interesting thread, but you've mis-understood what 3-betting is. 3-betting is just re-raising. 1st bet is a "1-bet", raise is a "2-bet", and re-raise is "3-bet". Pre-flop the blind (or calling the blind) is the 1-bet. First raise is a 2-bet. So a 3-bet pre-flop is just any re-raise. Typically this is pot-size, which just happens to normally be about 3 times the size of the raise before you.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 22, 2007, 6:03 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by alan1983
In this example, you bet pot at the same time you 3-raised him. but anyway, yes youd still win more than youd lose BUT, overall youd be winning less than what youd have when you bet bigger.
Youd be saving the bet difference 30% of the time, but youd be winning it less 70% of the time. So theres a 40% of the bet difference loss, maybe less since theyd fold more, but then again thatd apply to the 30% you lose as well.
If you give them odds to chase, then theyre making +EV plays against you. Therefore on long run that +EV is coming out of your pocket.
of course with a AK and KQ its different, but once again its odds. KQ only has 3 outs to beat you, so 3-betting just about any bet would make it a -EV play for them to call you.
joose already answered this so I wont respond with exactly what he said, 3 betting in a heads up pot basically is just a pot sized raise which like joose said is -e for him to call BUT by keeping... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: joosebuck at March 22, 2007, 5:52 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote:
If you give them odds to chase, then theyre making +EV plays against you. Therefore on long run that +EV is coming out of your pocket.
you dont give them odds to chase. 3 betting there doesn't give any draw (besides a monster draw) odds to chase. you just dont make it so obvious that the odds dont dictate a call, and it's more +EV because youll make money (in a +EV sense) on more hands, rather than your occasional donk who will shove with the nut flush draw, or OESD.
and like he said it also gives you room to bail if you get trapped by a set
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| Posted by: alan1983 at March 22, 2007, 11:32 am | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
ok lets analize it then.
AK you bet $6 and Qd9d comes
pot $12
flop is K with 2 diamonds
guy bet $6 and you make it $18 and he calls.
lets stop right there.
$48 right there.
flush hits 3 out of 10 times right so you lose $24 x 3= $72 becuase we are good players and can fold. now the other 7 times they dont hit we win $24x7= $168 and that is without us pricing him in all the way down. Now that to say the flush dosent hit on river we lost a little bit more but not much. And after our 3 bet on the flop we can punish him on turn if we want seeing as we put him on flush draw by now. Also there is no way QK bets this pot after our flop raise when the flush hits, sure he could bluff us once and awhile but usually with a flush out and someone holding QK they wont.
so you can see just by flop play we win more then we would lose.
In this example, you bet pot at the same time you 3... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: joosebuck at March 22, 2007, 1:57 am | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
my main concern is that our bluffs wont work well when 3betting, as against weaker players they will be priced in - or against stronger players they could notice if we pot-raise instead of 3bet in each situation. could work to our advantage though in mixing up and pot-raising with the nuts, etc.
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| Posted by: Lo-Dog at March 22, 2007, 12:23 am | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
IDK, I need to do some maths..... see ya next week.
How many times do we expect illian to fold to reraise?
What do we do on the turn if a scare cards hit, if not?
How many times will we fold the best hand?
I have lots more questions but I'll try to work them out myself.
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| Posted by: joosebuck at March 21, 2007, 11:41 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
it feels like we're laying them odds more instead of making them call obviously incorrect odds(which todays donks have learned mostly not to do), and i like that. the closer it gets to 3:1 on their money (even if it is 3:1 because of them block beting oop) the fuzzier their math will get and the more often they will call while getting 2.5:1 on their money & we win more in the long run. this style of poker is much more what i've been trying to adapt into my game as of late.
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| Posted by: ChuckTs at March 21, 2007, 11:25 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
you are solid chuck and can lay down a hand
You don't know me well, do you
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
so I think the style would fit you ery well. I do suggest making the investment in that place I said in my 1st post alot of their stuff is golden, blocking bets, inducing bluffs, etc etc.
I pay them $25 a month and it is money well spent.
I was seriously considering it a while ago. This was a blog post I wrote after watching their trial id: http://www.cardschat.com/blog/02/22/observe/
Still thinking about it, but tbh I'm broke right now ...gonna wait a bit and see where im at financially.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 21, 2007, 9:24 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by ChuckTs
Interesting stuff; tbh my cash game could be a lot better, and I'm gonna implement this next time I sit down and see how it goes.
you are solid chuck and can lay down a hand so I think the style would fit you ery well. I do suggest making the investment in that place I said in my 1st post alot of their stuff is golden, blocking bets, inducing bluffs, etc etc.
I pay them $25 a month and it is money well spent.
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| Posted by: ChuckTs at March 21, 2007, 9:16 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Interesting stuff; tbh my cash game could be a lot better, and I'm gonna implement this next time I sit down and see how it goes.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 21, 2007, 9:11 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
tosborn,
your comment at end couldn't be more correct.
they say don't let draws draw cheap, by 3 betting we are not letting them draw cheap but we arnt making it soooo expensive that there is no way they are calling. We are basically making it just tempting enough to call. now if its checked to me I usually bet about 1/2 pot to 2/3 pot. so I would make it $12 into the $18 pot again ery tempting for a flush draw to call. He has to call $12 into a $30 pot which is just about what he needs but is ery boarderline, most good players would lay it down but average ones will not and horrible ones wont at all.
Like I said in other post I want the chasers, im strong enough to lay down my TPTK. If you cant fold this is not a style you can play.
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| Posted by: tosborn at March 21, 2007, 9:09 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
I will admit though that I only began playing this style the last couple of weeks and don't nearly have enough hands to say that it is flawless. However, I do like the fact that we are controlling the pot size most of the time. Even occasionally out of position.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 21, 2007, 9:02 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by alan1983
I like this but not for draw heavy boards.
Doesnt make sense to me to give someone odds to chase just so i can fold more easily if he hits.
ok lets analize it then.
AK you bet $6 and Qd9d comes
pot $12
flop is K with 2 diamonds
guy bet $6 and you make it $18 and he calls.
lets stop right there.
$48 right there.
flush hits 3 out of 10 times right so you lose $24 x 3= $72 becuase we are good players and can fold. now the other 7 times they dont hit we win $24x7= $168 and that is without us pricing him in all the way down. Now that to say the flush dosent hit on river we lost a little bit more but not much. And after our 3 bet on the flop we can punish him on turn if we want seeing as we put him on flush draw by now. Also there is no way QK bets this pot after our flop raise when the flush hits, sure he could bluff us once and awhile but usually with a flush out and someone... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: tosborn at March 21, 2007, 8:50 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
I know allot of you guys have a problem with the way I play by remarks to some of my posts, but, here goes anyway.
I play a ersion of the 3-bet style above. I 3BB bet most playable hands with exception to the premium QQ, KK, AA, & AKsuited with which I usually 5BB bet.
My theory is that playing SNG's and MTT's primarily I don't want to go bust. Not to say that I don't want to win the most money I can from my good hands, but, let's look at this example.
Example 1
preflop...........
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
(12BB in pot)
flop........
Villain 1 checks
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets 3BB
Villain 1 calls
Villain 2 calls
turn.........
(21BB in pot)
Villain 1 checks
Villain 2 bets 5BB
Hero bets 15BB
Villain 1 folds
Villain 2 calls
(41BB in pot)
river...........
Villain 2 checks
Hero bets what? We can easily pot this bet here and show dominance or we can flip them over. (We hav... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: alan1983 at March 21, 2007, 8:48 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
I like this but not for draw heavy boards.
Doesnt make sense to me to give someone odds to chase just so i can fold more easily if he hits.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 21, 2007, 8:42 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by ChuckTs
What if we're sitting on a draw-heavy board though?
Also, the majority of the time if someone's going to call a raise PF with KQ or KJ, they're most likely going to invest a lot of chips with TP, so why not bet bigger?
Not sure I get this concept %100...
its so you dont over commit yourself to the pot, if he hits his draw its going to be ery obvious he hit and we will be able to fold without investing alot into it, remember that draw only happens 33% of the time so the other 67% of the time we are going to make him pay us off by just 3 betting him. Even though the 3bet dosent really price him in alot of players will call that instead of a whole pot size. This is more of a 1/2 NL and above concept though 3 betting in .10/.20 is pretty silly.
if you repop someone with KQ on the flop to say like pot size or more then most likely they will fold their top pair, while 3 betting most stay in so we profit more on them in lo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ChuckTs at March 21, 2007, 8:11 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
What if we're sitting on a draw-heavy board though?
Also, the majority of the time if someone's going to call a raise PF with KQ or KJ, they're most likely going to invest a lot of chips with TP, so why not bet bigger?
Not sure I get this concept %100...
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| Posted by: Lo-Dog at March 21, 2007, 7:38 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
meh, they stole how I've always played. Standard reraise is 3x illiains raise.
Of course it can go the other way for me too.
Cash game, blinds .50/1.00 I raise to $3, SB folds BB calls pot 6.50.
Flop comes whatever...villian bets $3.....If I am going to reraise its to $9 which here is the pot size.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 21, 2007, 7:25 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by joosebuck
i like this. i've been trying to think of a way to play that allows me to take advantage of the fact that i'm spot on on a lot of my opponent's hands instead of just push/fold poker. this style seems to allow you to min/max ery well.
yea it allows you to actually play poker after the flop instead of playing flop poker. I don't mind letting hands like KQ and KJ see the flop when I have AK or better. I mean isn't that what we basically want, hands coming in that we have totally dominated?
everyone always talks about getting those hands to fold but why on earth would we want that? I want KQ to follow me all the way down to the river, hell they are drawing ery slim and if they hit then oh well, we basically are controlling the size of the pot so I doubt we will be going bust with TPTK but we are getting alue all the way down.
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| Posted by: joosebuck at March 21, 2007, 7:18 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
i like this. i've been trying to think of a way to play that allows me to take advantage of the fact that i'm spot on on a lot of my opponent's hands instead of just push/fold poker. this style seems to allow you to min/max ery well.
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| Posted by: stormswa at March 21, 2007, 7:00 pm | | Topic: 3 betting Forum: Card Chat |
I have been watching alot of cardrunner's ideo's lately, if you don't know they are a site that I support 100%. Taylor one of the guys that runs and teaches on the site is a amazing player that started from small stakes and worked his way up and now plays the highest games on the net.
ok back to the subject of this post. Taylor and his group of teachers 3-bet alot, what is 3 betting you may ask. Im soooo glad you did, basically it is betting 3x the blind or the bet in front of you. When I used to play I used to look at pot amount to dictate how much I was going to re-raise you and I basically found that I was committing way to much to the pot. Take this for instance you are in a tourney and blinds are like 100/200 and you each have say 5K in your stack. So you 3-bet preflop to 600 and get 2 callers so pot is 1800, you have AK and hit top pair. Guy leads out for 200 (because he is a moron? you look at pot and make it 2000 which is pot size. You basically are committing 1/2 of your stack and if h... | | Read Entire Entry |
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