| Posted by: ayasak at July 30, 2007, 2:36 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Effexor
Generally speaking though, cold calling PF in mid to late stages of a MTT is bad. Either reraise or fold. Weak players will be the third or fourth person in the pot with hands like AJ, AT, KQ, I'd much rather have 78s here.
hi,
i'm kinda confused here. you mentioned weak players will be the 3rd or 4th into the pot with AJ, AT, KQ etc. do u mean they just flat call with these hands?
imho, i'll probably put the Gap Theory (or is it Concept?) to use here. If the original raiser raised to 2.5-3BB and its folded to me in mid/late position, i'll probably re-raise to 6-7BB here, hoping to be heads-up or take down the pot there. If the original raiser is re-raised before its my turn to act, i'll throw them away.
i've been playing 6mths and i'm still really bad at it...so please feel free to comment on my post.
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| Posted by: rainsoaked at July 28, 2007, 9:53 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Very good information here.I recognize similar holes (too big in my case to just be leaks in my mid-level game. Build a patient stack then wind up scared in the BB from a previous bad lay down or other mistake and now the button -- or utg+2 as often as not -- can smell my fear.Feeling a little stronger now, thanks to you guys. I apologize that I don't have anything to add more than the basic +1 but I've only just started to get serious with MTT's so I'm still in sponge mode. This was good stuff so soak up.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at July 28, 2007, 9:29 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Effexor
Well here is huge hole in your game. You should NOT be cold calling PF unless you have a speculative hand with really good odds or implied odds.
I`m 100% behind this
I am always too worried about winning every pot I enter, so therefore I find mysef in a situation where I can become timid.
I actually played a $10 SNG last night and I raised on almost everytime I entered a pot. Yes, even with 78s in late position, A10 middle position, 88 UTG, etc.
It might have been a one off but I won the SNG. I do normally do ok playing SNG`s but funnilly enough I felt more comfortable.
I got a better feel for what other people had when I was raising and getting called/ reraised.
One hand that stood out was pocket 55, middle position. Folded to me, I raised 4 times bb. One caller, had position on me.
Flop Jc4d7c. I raised 1/2 pot, other guy called.
Turn 3h. I fired again, 1/2 pot, he called.<... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: drizzt at July 28, 2007, 4:44 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
thank you stormswa =) Im cautious about being firm in my opinions because all too often in poker (and life for that matter =P) it seems i never know enough to be sure.
I really like what bob_tiger mentioned: Dont be too eager to throw a lot of chips at pots, and dont be eager to knock people out, especially chasing flush/straight draws. Most often the people who lead at the beginning of the freerolls i played were out before half the players were out (and these tournaments had like 3-3.5k people starting out). The top 10-30 chip leaders changed rapidly up until the final 100 due in large part because a lot of those leaders had a lot of chips, and slowly they took too many flush/straight chances or bullied the small stacks too much and over time it drained them. If your gonna leak chips, its much better to leak chips to blind stealers than do what bob said not to do and chase low stacks on your draw.
When i see a chip leader at my table, now and days I just get excited. If i have a big ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Mojomax747 at July 28, 2007, 4:42 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
I quoted the 1st part to know im directing this to you. this is a great post, mainly because you are honest and give your opinion and I just skimmed through it but most seemed fine. THis is a great start to the forum and welcome, trust me when we say you are more then welcome here.
supposedly I'm mean to new users here, but if they made honest posts like this I would be the nicest guy in the world. Take note new users just be honest and dont act like it should be our honer to read what you type.
I find this post ery condescending to the many new members here who try and get involved with the cardschat community.
I have a really early work start today and being that it is saturday i decided to pop in and read some positive stuff before i set off for the day and i end up reading this instead.
So new members dont make honest posts?
New members act like you should be honored to read what they type?
Y... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: bob_tiger at July 28, 2007, 3:54 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
This and more. I suppose I am getting a little anxious when I get a big stack - I don`t want to lose it. However, I don`t want it to dwindle away. Its picking your spots I suppose.
So are you suggesting loosen up a bit and try to hit some flops?
i started reading a little and stormswa and some1 else were arguing about something and i didnt even bother reading it....here is another suggestion to ya. i understand u dont wanna mess around with yr stack and end up losing it but u do wanna play more hands and try to hit hands that u know u got the nuts and add to yr chip stack. ( u will lose a pot or 2 since u cant win every hand.) also i suggest if the blinds r for example 100-200 and the pot is 500 and lets say yr stack is 15k...my suggestion is if u know ur up against a tight player and even if he checks to u...dont try to do something stupid and get yrself in trouble and lose more chips. u only put 200 in to the pot so its not a bi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: stormswa at July 28, 2007, 3:06 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by drizzt
I'm rather new like you Ron, I've been playing on and off for 3 years, but when i say on and off, I mean a bunch of freerolls (which i've done good in) and then a few months of no poker =P.
I quoted the 1st part to know im directing this to you. this is a great post, mainly because you are honest and give your opinion and I just skimmed through it but most seemed fine. THis is a great start to the forum and welcome, trust me when we say you are more then welcome here.
supposedly I'm mean to new users here, but if they made honest posts like this I would be the nicest guy in the world. Take note new users just be honest and dont act like it should be our honer to read what you type.
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| Posted by: drizzt at July 28, 2007, 2:49 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
I'm rather new like you Ron, I've been playing on and off for 3 years, but when i say on and off, I mean a bunch of freerolls (which i've done good in) and then a few months of no poker =P.
Now that I'm getting serious, I realize that you and I share the same problem: Just being worried about someone out drawing us or over playing a hand, and definitely how to play late in the tournament that's gone on for 2-4 hours already. There have been some great points: First and foremost people tend to clam up big time as the cut off approaches, and that's a great time to steal blinds with suited connectors, face card and a good kicker, and even high, unsuited connectors (which really to me is 10-9 in a good position, or J10). This strategy helped me place 13th in a tournament with 3,000 starting people (and that's when they stopped the tournament because the top 50 advanced to the weekly final, which i got 53/1000 in). Now, Ive done well in a few tournaments, and poorly in more but I must say that in a ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Effexor at July 27, 2007, 3:41 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
Possibly I should start to open pots with raises rather than calls???
What do you think - become more aggressive when opening a pot???
Well here is huge hole in your game. You should NOT be cold calling PF unless you have a speculative hand with really good odds or implied odds. (set mining for example) This is the position where 78 suited is BY FAR better then QJ. Generally speaking though, cold calling PF in mid to late stages of a MTT is bad. Either reraise or fold. Weak players will be the third or fourth person in the pot with hands like AJ, AT, KQ, I'd much rather have 78s here.
One of the statements I heard recently about what makes a good online MTT player is selective aggression. Be first in the pot with a raise. Play your position, and pick on people that seem weak.
Don't forget that even weak tight players will wake up with a hand once in a while.
Reread what Philthy wrote, ery good bullet poi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vanquish at July 27, 2007, 3:30 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
I like the way the thread is going
The above quote is a alid point. As I`m relativley new to poker (18 months) and as I am a `structured` kind of person, I possibly follow the `system` too much.
I feel when I have a big stack and I am on the button I should steal. I don`t take into concideration the players in the blinds as much as I probably should. I think the same can be said for playing the small blind. I tend to limp too much.
Possibly I should start to open pots with raises rather than calls???
What do you think - become more aggressive when opening a pot???
NEVER open pots with calls. If you're entering a pot first, raise. A hand that's not worth raising is not worth playing anyway.
As for the original topic: If you have a chip lead, wait to pick up a good hand (AK, AQ, QQ, JJ, etc), make a standard button raise. If the flop hits you, c-bet it. If the other player calls, bet the turn pr... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ronaldadio at July 27, 2007, 12:12 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
if he has a big stack and ends up losing to blind steals a lot the obviously he is picking his spots ery poorly against players that are willing to play back at him.
I like the way the thread is going
The above quote is a alid point. As I`m relativley new to poker (18 months) and as I am a `structured` kind of person, I possibly follow the `system` too much.
I feel when I have a big stack and I am on the button I should steal. I don`t take into concideration the players in the blinds as much as I probably should. I think the same can be said for playing the small blind. I tend to limp too much.
Possibly I should start to open pots with raises rather than calls???
What do you think - become more aggressive when opening a pot???
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| Posted by: philthy at July 27, 2007, 7:49 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Im with Stormwa on this.
Shark s. Fish....something tells me you aren't the shark.
As for the OP, these are somethings I do:
-Loosen up your range of hands, especially in position.
-Raise more hands in position.
-If the blinds are weak go after them.
-Defend your blinds to keep the button from running over you.
-Go after the weak, tight players. I also like to go after the shortstack because you force them to have a hand.
-Go after those small, unwanted pots. Especially when flops are dry and its checked to you.
-You dont be afraid to reraise someone if you think they are weak.
-Dont be afraid to lay down your hand if you get caught trying to steal.
-Another thing is you dont have to commit a lot of your chips when you're on a steal. Yes, you are trying to build up your stack. It might cost you a little bit to try and take down pot, but you need to be protecting your stack as well. There is no need to ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shark vs fish at July 27, 2007, 3:34 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Hahaha you're making me laugh out so loud.
78 suited is the CLASSIC hand that plays well on the flop and ery ery badly in a preflop all-in showdown.
Thanks for the personal attacks, but sharkscope does say that you are Super Tilt, not having cashed for many tourneys in a row.
I guess we know why ;-)
PS I don't play under this name on sites so no need to try ;-)
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| Posted by: stormswa at July 27, 2007, 2:38 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by shark s fish
I've always been calm, you apparently not lol.
So you think QsJs is "junk", but 7s8s is a shoving hand? lmao So let me get this.... you shove hoping someone will fold, and if they call you're busted? Do you even understand risk/reward, you're risking your whole stack to steal blinds on a hand that is at a huge dog against any pockets, and worst of all, any junk K3, Q4, let alone AK AJ etc.
Only fish would shove with that hand, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Enough said.
you obviously know nothing about mid to late tourney play then, I guess that make Mkind, annette, Rizen etc fish right? because they would all concider that pretty standard given certain situations I described. QJ is junk in 1st 3 levels in early position for the simple reason you will be dominated a majority of the time and even in late stages 78s has better showdown alue s QJ to a raise and that pretty much is something you can not argue because it ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shark vs fish at July 27, 2007, 2:32 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
ok now that you have calmed down and we can actually discuss this we will, calm now?
like for instance lets say you have something like 7s8s in the big blind and the button makes his 3rd button raise. Shoving here is a good play
I've always been calm, you apparently not lol.
So you think QsJs is "junk", but 7s8s is a shoving hand? lmao So let me get this.... you shove hoping someone will fold, and if they call you're busted? Do you even understand risk/reward, you're risking your whole stack to steal blinds on a hand that is at a huge dog against any pockets, and worst of all, any junk K3, Q4, let alone AK AJ etc.
Only fish would shove with that hand, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Enough said.
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| Posted by: stormswa at July 27, 2007, 2:24 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by shark s fish
If that's how you see the original post, but he said he wanted to take it "to the next level", and that isn't done by stealing blinds or any preflop play.
One of my fa kind of players are those who raise preflop and stop cold on the flop, or bet weak on the flop and check the turn. Preflop play is worthless if you don't already know your strategy postflop.. "any pro" will tell you that.
ok now that you have calmed down and we can actually discuss this we will, calm now?
I'm not really talking about re-raising to see a flop, I'm talking about shoving on someone that you perceive as weak with a marginal hand but with good showdown alue against your opponents range.
like for instance lets say you have something like 7s8s in the big blind and the button makes his 3rd button raise. Shoving here is a good play for the simple reason that he does not have to have a big hand and there is a real good... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shark vs fish at July 27, 2007, 2:15 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
If that's how you see the original post, but he said he wanted to take it "to the next level", and that isn't done by stealing blinds or any preflop play.
One of my fa kind of players are those who raise preflop and stop cold on the flop, or bet weak on the flop and check the turn. Preflop play is worthless if you don't already know your strategy postflop.. "any pro" will tell you that.
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| Posted by: stormswa at July 27, 2007, 2:11 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by shark s fish
LMAO, QJ-suited "JUNK"?? You just about made me spill my coffee here. Even for a tight player, early on, regardless of position, if there's a couple of limpers, min raise/call preflop, etc, you gotta play this hand. If you consider that junk then you aren't really at a level capable of "breaking down" my post ;-)
I guess you didnt read the part of the post that said "it depends on limpers before you and position", I understand words are hard to read sometimes. And yes QJ is junk in early position for the simple reason you know nothing about the action of the hand before you have to act, QJ is a trap hand. So you are open limping QJ under the gun im guessing? Since like you said position does not matter right?
Quote: Originally Posted by shark s fish
I said around 15 hands, depending on table size. 2 rounds. Way too early to get a read on any player? So you mean to tell me that you c... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shark vs fish at July 27, 2007, 2:03 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by stormswa
ok if you are playing tight in the beginning then QJ suited is pretty much junk.
I have the biggest problem with this you are saying we should see 15 hands and then lossen up . you are not even out of level 2 yet, this is way to early to get info on players, way too early.
actully you should be taking down pots PREFLOP not on the flop, you should be re-stealing at this stage not trying to outplay someone on the flop.
LMAO, QJ-suited "JUNK"?? You just about made me spill my coffee here. Even for a tight player, early on, regardless of position, if there's a couple of limpers, min raise/call preflop, etc, you gotta play this hand. If you consider that junk then you aren't really at a level capable of "breaking down" my post ;-)
I said around 15 hands, depending on table size. 2 rounds. Way too early to get a read on any player? So you mean to tell me that you can't decide that someone who's play... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: stormswa at July 27, 2007, 1:44 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
ok where to begin with this post, lets break it down.
Quote: Originally Posted by shark s fish
Stealing blinds doesn't take you to the next level, nor does calling preflop loosely in order to see more flops. You should almost 100% always play tight to start a tourney as it not only protects your position but allows you to observe other players and establish a tight table image which is ery beneficial to you after about 2 rounds of blinds. Of course if during early rounds you got AA, QJ suited, 99, etc you still should play them, but play them intelligently not loosely. .
ok if you are playing tight in the beginning then QJ suited is pretty much junk. But that is besides the point, what you run depends on a lot like position and how many limpers etc etc. And playing nitty early on is a good strategy but so is limping alot and mixing it up. This is not bad advice though.
Quote: Originally Posted by shark s fish
After 15 hands or so is time to S... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shark vs fish at July 27, 2007, 1:33 am | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Stealing blinds doesn't take you to the next level, nor does calling preflop loosely in order to see more flops. You should almost 100% always play tight to start a tourney as it not only protects your position but allows you to observe other players and establish a tight table image which is ery beneficial to you after about 2 rounds of blinds. Of course if during early rounds you got AA, QJ suited, 99, etc you still should play them, but play them intelligently not loosely.
After 15 hands or so is time to SWITCH GEARS, which plenty of books or sites talk about. The maniac donkeys have either been busted by that stage, or lucked themselves to big stacks and stopped playing hands. The other players should have been observed by you and notes made of. This is when you should loosen up. Don't worry about stealing blinds.. they don't get you anywhere. Preflop raises aren't there to steal blinds, they are there to build pots. Because you've had a tight table image thus far, you can afford to ta... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dj11 at July 26, 2007, 11:02 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Depending on your stack size, I agree. See more flops early, but after the opening rounds.
Cheaply is paramount at this stage. Not any two cards, but damn near any two cards into a limped pot in late position, and a stretch from all text in early position would be upper suited connectors, or even occasionally the naked connectors.
There is a stage in MTT's where just about everyone is in limp mode, it is +/- the first break through almost the 2nd break. Here stacks are increased largely from the sit outs, but also from stupid players making stupid moves against someone who actually has the goods. You don't want to compete for any pot unless you are the one with the goods. This is a period of non-confrontation, let others confront, and blow their chip stacks.
Being careful with an early chip lead or above average stack is a recipe for disaster.
You don't have to try to steal, those opportunities will arise automatically.
Do see more flops, with lesser cards, but ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ronaldadio at July 26, 2007, 10:37 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by bob_tiger
so hmm whats yr question? r u wondering about when u get a nice stack and u try to steal and u mess up? if that here is my suggestion i wouldnt try and stealing any pots with a big stack unless u know u can bully that person out and if its a weak player. also u dont wanna bluff when the other player is pot commited and u know he/she will call. and with a big stack i would play more hands but still stay kind of tight and not worry and just wait for yr chances to win pots. sit back and enjoy the game dont try to play the players with a big stack...let the cards do their job
This and more. I suppose I am getting a little anxious when I get a big stack - I don`t want to lose it. However, I don`t want it to dwindle away. Its picking your spots I suppose.
So are you suggesting loosen up a bit and try to hit some flops?
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| Posted by: bob_tiger at July 26, 2007, 9:33 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
so hmm whats yr question? r u wondering about when u get a nice stack and u try to steal and u mess up? if that here is my suggestion i wouldnt try and stealing any pots with a big stack unless u know u can bully that person out and if its a weak player. also u dont wanna bluff when the other player is pot commited and u know he/she will call. and with a big stack i would play more hands but still stay kind of tight and not worry and just wait for yr chances to win pots. sit back and enjoy the game dont try to play the players with a big stack...let the cards do their job
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at July 26, 2007, 9:28 pm | | Topic: Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT Forum: Card Chat |
Hi all.
I`ve read all the books, looked at some links, but I would like to explore this further.
I play a tight game most of the time.
So I find if I catch a few hands early on and I`m up with the leaders I do ok.
But this is also when my problem starts.
I can`t seem to take my chip superiority to the next level.
I find that when I try to steal unless I win my first or second steal attempt I go into my shell and I start to protect my stack.
So I end up scraping into the money.
It seems to have got worse the more I know about poker. I have become more `worried` about the flop, outs, etc and end up `bottling`
And thoughts and ideas would be appreciated guys.
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