| Posted by: Steveg1976 at December 6, 2007, 6:10 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
The point was that most people UNDER alue it, or at least a great many more do than overvalue it. In fact, it would be pretty hard to overvalue the math in poker, imo; use it incorrectly, maybe...
The general tone seemed to be that of underplaying the importance of math, and I couldn't disagree more.
Also true. To me it seems that people don't use the math and reads together which goes back what you and cheetah were saying earlier about it being a tool.
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 6, 2007, 6:05 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Steveg1976
just that some I feel over alue it.
The point was that most people UNDER alue it, or at least a great many more do than overvalue it. In fact, it would be pretty hard to overvalue the math in poker, imo; use it incorrectly, maybe...
The general tone seemed to be that of underplaying the importance of math, and I couldn't disagree more.
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| Posted by: Steveg1976 at December 6, 2007, 4:13 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
I agree completely o MOTM, you can see the evidence in the first two comments. I hate the false dichotomy that the OP seems to insinuate, and that a lot of players would love to believe because they don't want to learn the math.
Now that is a bit of a misrepresentation of my statement, I went on to say:
that is not to say that the math(sic) is not of alue, just that some I feel over alue it.
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 6, 2007, 3:31 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by jimebeen
For one, I hate math. It just overwhelms me, and its a problem to me.
Quote: Originally Posted by Steveg1976
Great Post WBS, I agree that a lot of players put to much alue in the math of poker.
Quote: Originally Posted by Cheetah
I think that not using enough math is a more prelevant problem than using it too much. Many people dislike math and don't learn even the basic applications to poker. They are doing a great disservice to themselves. Surely one can learn proper play by experience, but it takes more time and more lost money.
I agree completely o MOTM, you can see the evidence in the first two comments. I hate the false dichotomy that the OP seems to insinuate, and that a lot of players would love to believe because they don't want to learn the math.
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| Posted by: Cheetah at December 6, 2007, 3:29 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
Poker isn't a "reads s. math" game: having a read, putting a player on a hand, etc., IS doing the math, not something that is contrary to it.
That summarizes it all! Well said, AG.
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| Posted by: Cheetah at December 6, 2007, 3:24 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Good post on an important issue.
Math is just one of the tools available to make correct decisions. As any tool, if used incorrectly, it will produce bad results.
I think it is important to realize that math is never wrong. It is the assumptions made that are wrong. Blind reliance on "rules" is not a good thing in poker. If you have a good reliable read in a situation, it should trump a general math rule.
On the other hand, there are many situations when math can be applied alsmost mechanically. This is especially true in tournaments where our read on opponents is limited and when stacks are so short that we often have to make decisions based on odds alone.
I think that not using enough math is a more prelevant problem than using it too much. Many people dislike math and don't learn even the basic applications to poker. They are doing a great disservice to themselves. Surely one can learn proper play by experience, but it takes more time and more lost mone... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: aliengenius at December 6, 2007, 3:09 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by WildBullshark
Putting your opponent on a range of hands and making a read throughout the duration of a hand
Quote: Originally Posted by WildBullshark
learning to make the correct decision to fold on the end (either instinctively or through piecing together information you have gathered from the hand and your opponent) can become a much more aluable/profitable tool than learning when it becomes unprofitable to surrender a pot even when you face a bet small enough to justify a call based on the size of the pot.
I don't think you are fully understanding WHY something is mathematically correct (or at least, you are not giving it a fair shake).
Poker isn't a "reads s. math" game: having a read, putting a player on a hand, etc., IS doing the math, not something that is contrary to it.
Since poker is a game of incomplete information you can only assign certain probabilities to your opponents hand (the... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jeffred1111 at December 6, 2007, 2:59 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
In limit games, it is usually not incorrect not to fold because of the pot size but because making a one bet mistake (calling with the worse hand) is worse than making a huge mistake (folding and losing the pot). This, in turn, makes the play a correct mathematical decision in the long run, but not all the time:
If I have middle pair and the pot is 15BB against a tough/sa y player on the end, I don't want to fold altough I'm probably beat because if the bet is 1BB, I'm getting 16:1 wich, if we figure even a small bluffing/worse hand chance, makes this a winner in the long run. But the thing is, how did I get there with middle pair ? Why didnt' I fold before the pot got so big ? Will illain bluff/ have a worse hand this 10% of the time ? Probably not. Pots don't get big by themselves unless you're playing in a ery, ery soft game (wich most online games nowadays aren't, even at low stakes).
So I don't think the problem (big leak) is calling a single bet on the end, it's calling several o... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Steveg1976 at December 6, 2007, 2:47 pm | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Great Post WBS, I agree that a lot of players put to much alue in the math of poker. that is not to say that the may is not of alue, just that some I feel over alue it. The math I feel is more of a guideline than a hard and cold way to play;we are playing against people after all, not computers.
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| Posted by: WildBullshark at December 6, 2007, 11:28 am | | Topic: Mathematically Incorrect To Fold? Forum: Card Chat |
Note: I have a mathematics background, so I know many of you will potentially (or almost certainly) have arguments.
I often read strategy articles, even some written by extremely successful players that advise to often call bets at the end of a hand based on the size of the pot. So, if in a fixed limit hold'em game, you face 1 big bet on the last street, you should call if your hand strength is moderate enough and there are at least x big bets in the pot already. There are many mathematical reasons why this is the correct play, and in fixed limit games they have been proven to be profitable in many situations.
However, I do think most players get into the mindset of always calling in these situations because mathematically it may make sense, or because a book tells them too. I think this takes away from a player's ability to make some critical decisions based on other criteria that could or most likely be more aluable. Putting your opponent on a range of hands and making a read through... | | Read Entire Entry |
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