| Posted by: joosebuck at December 11, 2006, 9:01 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
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So u r trying to say that everyone that wins a tourny wins by skill alone???
who said that
Quote:
So u r trying to say that everyone that wins a tourny wins by skill alone???
who said it
Quote:
So u r trying to say that everyone that wins a tourny wins by skill alone???
stop clinging to an unfounded argument
Quote:
So u r trying to say that everyone that wins a tourny wins by skill alone???
i hate you =/
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 8:58 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by buckster436
iJamie Gold, well what can i say, he was so lucky in everyway in this years WSOP that it was Unbelievable, for you guys who didnt see it yet, he was the most luckiest guy in the world from day 4 till he won,, im not saying he dont have any skill, but it was amazing, buck
I agree, what a run he was on!!!
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| Posted by: buckster436 at December 11, 2006, 8:54 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Beriac
But over time the luck should even itself out, and really what's left should be mostly skill.
i agree with this, but if your up against Jamie Gold, well what can i say, he was so lucky in everyway in this years WSOP that it was Unbelievable, for you guys who didnt see it yet, he was the most luckiest guy in the world from day 4 till he won,, im not saying he dont have any skill, but it was amazing, buck
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| Posted by: Beriac at December 11, 2006, 8:49 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
Nice post. The only thing I would say is that the cards dealt must represent a high % of the outcome. The main reason poker is not 100% luck is down to the way the hands delt are played, if that makes any sense
But over time the luck should even itself out, and really what's left should be mostly skill.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 8:48 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Daniels
So in my opinion, the luck factor is much smaller than 10%, more like 1-4% overall. But luck appears to be a much larger factor because everyone harps on their bad beats (of which many aren't bad beats, but bad plays) and forgets about all of the winning hands that held up like they were supposed to.
/whew. Glad I got that off my chest.
Nice post. The only thing I would say is that the cards dealt must represent a high % of the outcome. The main reason poker is not 100% luck is down to the way the hands delt are played, if that makes any sense
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| Posted by: Beriac at December 11, 2006, 8:48 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
My own 2 cents here: luck is a huge factor in any one game (my evidence: newbies who don't know how to play poker even win at all their first time playing in my competitive live home game), but over increasingly long sample sizes it becomes decreasingly important, eventually irrelevant.
In any given game, is luck 50% or 80%? Over the long term, is skill 85% or 99%? I have no idea, and frankly the numbers are almost meaningless.
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| Posted by: Beriac at December 11, 2006, 8:43 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Ronaldadio,
I think that Dorkus is rightly pointing out that the original quotation is a truism at best, a contradiction at worst. Giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming that it's the former, then it's basically saying that luck and skill are both needed to win MTTs. It then goes on to suggest that it might be 30% skill and 40% luck (plus 30% discipline!).
I have to admit, I don't find that thought overly helpful. Is the quotation trying to suggest that it's a skill game so don't worry about bad beats because they even out and the more skilled person comes out on top over time? Is it trying to suggest that there's a heavy luck component and so even if you lose, don't worry because it doesn't mean you're not skilled?
I think it's just not that helpful a statement in general. Kind of ague, slightly circular. I don't think the quotation is the worst thing in the world, just kind of inoffensive and not so well thought out (ie, I think most respected players would disa... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Jack Daniels at December 11, 2006, 8:38 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Okay, my turn to throw in 2 cents or a nickle if someone can make change.
The only part of poker that involves luck is the order in which the cards come out. Which comes in two parts really. First are your hole cards, second are the board cards. No amount of skill will ever affect the order in which the cards come out. That order is defined by the shuffle (whether live or by online algorithm is irrelevant).
Everything else you do is based on your personal skills. Your skills include, but are not limited to:
1. evaluating your hole cards for starting alue
2. knowing and understanding your position at the table
3. iewing your stack size proportional to others
4. reading your opponents
5. recollection of previous hands and the play in them
6. knowing/understand odds of making your hands
7. counting outs
8. putting opponents on a range of hands
9. pot odds and implied odds
10. I'd keep going, but you should get the picture.
All these things ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 8:25 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
I do appologise to the Americans out there, sry.
As for DM, the difference between me and him is that I alue other peoples opinions and I also don`t care if I look stupid from time to time - I`m big enough and ugly enough to take it!!!
And, DM, when someone is 60/40 they could win or they could lose, that is not a contradiction, its a possibility!!!
Over to you, professor
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| Posted by: Kennyseven at December 11, 2006, 8:19 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
If winning a tourny is 40% luck then I must be the luckiest guy in town...last week I placed 1st in two 15 dollar buy in MTT's, 3rd in another(on The Gaming Club) then 13th in the luckyseven Freerolls. If you don't believe me I will E-mail The Gaming Club and send my results. I am not saying I am a great player or anything like that, but I would like to think that luck plays a smalller role in MTT's. I think that building the right table image is the most important aspect in playing these. Oh, if anybody was wondering what kind of money I made...$4801st
$4603rd
$12001st
$53 13th
Over the weekend went on full tilt -300
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| Posted by: MrSticker at December 11, 2006, 8:10 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
To reiterate, his opinion is what I agreed with.
All of what you were calling advice could be classed as opinions - I`m leaving it at that.
(P.s. I have seen lots of your posts in the past, I had never noticed u were form the UK. I caught `Birmingham` and though it was Alabama!!!)
Just to add my "2 cents":
1) Ron, what I have found is that people here don't hold back. I think you've learned now that if you want to share some info or "opinion", you have to have a thicker skin and be prepared for any folks who disagree. As long as they don't insult you, you should be OK with it.
2) I've always thought poker was about 10% luck. But if we take the 1000 hand example, that would mean 100 hands were luck. Is that one player's luck or any hand won by "luck"? I don't know. I think that shoots down my 10% theory. I don't think you can measure luck since it is so ery streaky. Maybe we'... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 7:56 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
So u r trying to say that everyone that wins a tourny wins by skill alone???
U might, but I know the times I have won tournys I can go back to marginal situations - folding JJ after a raise and seeing QA hit on flop, then going all in with KK, finding I`m up against AA and I hit K on flop.
I do not want to go on and on and on, sry. U r entitled 2 your opinion
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at December 11, 2006, 7:38 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
I'm not getting wound up at all. If I were American I would probably be a little insulted at your assertion that Americans aren't allowed to have opinions, but I'm not so I don't really care. Where did you get the impression I'm getting 'wound up'? I'm just debating the issues at hand.
I'm merely trying to help you and everyone else understand that the quote in the OP is crap, that's all. If you want to continue thinking that you absolutely have to have skill to win an MTT but it takes 40% uncontrollable luck too, then more power to you.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 7:25 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
To reiterate, his opinion is what I agreed with.
All of what you were calling advice could be classed as opinions - I`m leaving it at that.
(P.s. I have seen lots of your posts in the past, I had never noticed u were form the UK. I caught `Birmingham` and though it was Alabama!!!)
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at December 11, 2006, 7:09 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote:
When a tricky situation arises, you'll almost always want to fold more than call.
Advice.
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To win consistently you must have strong mental discipline. Most of the time, you'll be folding, because in MTTs, folding makes the money.
Advice.
Quote:
The only tip I can give you regarding patience is to keep yourself occupied. Always try to predict what people have and take each blind level step by step.
Advice.
Can we not get bogged down in semantics?
What's more - the 'quote' is stupid because he says "You have to be skilled to win MTTs", then a few lines later says "Luck is a really big factor that is uncontrollable". So do we have to be skilled at being lucky which we can't control to win MTTs? WTF is this guy smoking?
Quote:
His opinion is similar to mine, nothing more, nothing less.(I know in the USA u r not allowed to have an opini... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 6:55 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus
Duuuuuuude,
1) The 'advice' sucks. As it's written by someone who will probably never come here, I see no need to be subtle about it.
2) Nobody is being 'picky'. Would you prefer that we all just nodded our heads and said "Hay guyz the OP is great advice and 100% correct!" and you moved on witout learning anything (except that you have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, of course).
What you have done in the OP is essentially comparable to lifting a passage from "Sesame Street - Baby's First Book" and intimating that it is literary genius. Read the HoHs and you will see why the extract in the OP is just meaningless poo.
Point 1) It was not `advice` the way I read it - it was an opinion. Advice = recommendation.Opinion = ViewSo he does not `recommend` you use skill 30% of the time, etc...
His opinion is similar to mine, nothing more, nothing less.(I know in the USA u r ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: BKrywko1 at December 11, 2006, 4:23 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Whatever website you found this on (or at least the author), consider it garbage. That 40% luck shiii...crap is nothing more than the "poker is rigged" lunacy stated differently.
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| Posted by: Jack Daniels at December 11, 2006, 3:24 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Beriac
I think we're chasing our tails a little on this.
Yeah, but who doesn't like to chase a little tail occasionally?
But I think you're right. Actually most of the posts were right. The statements were ague. There is no really set % for any of the items. Both skill and luck are required. etc. I don't think this thread overall will be extremely beneficial to any newbies that read it, but I think there may be room for discussion on some of the items if we can keep the sarcasm out (oops, never mind).
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| Posted by: Beriac at December 11, 2006, 2:44 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Guys, I mean no offense to anyone, but this is a ery silly discussion brought on by advice that is at best extremely ague.
My personal iew is that there is a huge luck component in any one MTT. You always hear from big MTT winners that they "had to win one or several coin flips" to get there, and they did. That's my experience as well. But to do better than average over a series of MTTs I think would definitely be primarily skill.
But I think we're arguing semantics here. I don't think anyone actually believes that luck plays no role in a MTT, and no one believes that no skill is required. It's not like if we agree that luck is 80% or 60% or 12% we're going to change our play somehow, so it's moo!*
I think we're chasing our tails a little on this...
* Like a cow's opinion, it's moo.
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at December 11, 2006, 1:31 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Duuuuuuude,
1) The 'advice' sucks. As it's written by someone who will probably never come here, I see no need to be subtle about it.
2) Nobody is being 'picky'. Would you prefer that we all just nodded our heads and said "Hay guyz the OP is great advice and 100% correct!" and you moved on witout learning anything (except that you have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, of course).
What you have done in the OP is essentially comparable to lifting a passage from "Sesame Street - Baby's First Book" and intimating that it is literary genius. Read the HoHs and you will see why the extract in the OP is just meaningless poo.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 12:41 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by tenbob
OMG OMG
Your trying to tell me that a 10 line post beats harringtons 3 books on MTT play ?????
Im a ery successful MTT player, and to be honest in any one game, yes your correct luck is a ery important factor, but over the course of 1000 games it pales into nothing in comparision to skill.
I`m not trying to rewrite the theory of poker either. The next thing I know I`ll be hit with a lawsuite!!!!
God bless America, land of the free
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 12:38 pm | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by tenbob
OMG OMG
Your trying to tell me that a 10 line post beats harringtons 3 books on MTT play ?????
Im a ery successful MTT player, and to be honest in any one game, yes your correct luck is a ery important factor, but over the course of 1000 games it pales into nothing in comparision to skill.
I think we r all agreed but we are expressing ourselves differently!!!
The post was not meant to b the way to win, I just felt in general I agreed.
To win a MTT u need skill, discipline and luck. To win one I think the split is about right 30/30/40.
100 MTT is probably 60/30/10 - I don`t know.
It might b time for me to find another forum - people here r so picky it`s untrue!!!!
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| Posted by: joosebuck at December 11, 2006, 5:48 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
"Most of the time, you'll be folding, because in MTTs, folding makes the money"
let them think this, playing against people like this is how i accumulate chips near the bubble & make FT's
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at December 11, 2006, 5:09 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Putting percentages on things like this is stupid. Yeah, a while ago I made a post saying SNG bubble-game is x% this and y% that, but that's because SNG bubble play is so mechanical. MTT play from start to finish is so dynamic trying to put percentages on things is just stupid and pointless, so please stop debating over whether it's 10% or 20% luck or whatever (the answer obviously depends on sample sizes too but who cares).
I suggest instead we talk about how the advice Ron lifted in the OP is really crappy, general, stupid advice that I wouldn't even waste a complete beginners time with.
"A player must be skilled in order to win multi-table tournaments"- dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn
"You have to know when to hold'em and when to fold'em" - WOW DID THE AUTHOR JUST GRADUATE FROM CLICHE SCHOOL?
"Most of the time, you'll be folding, because in MTTs, folding makes the money" - lol.
etc etc
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| Posted by: combuboom at December 11, 2006, 4:25 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by tenbob
over the course of 1000 games it pales into nothing in comparision to skill.
I don't know about that. Obviously over 1000 games, skill is the much more important factor, but to say it pales into nothing in comparison is, I think, ery misleading. I think this is especially true given the top-heavy nature of MTTs.
One player could play 100 MTTs, and let's say he makes one final table, but in that final table he's running extremely good, wins every race, and takes 1st place. Another player could play 100 of these same buy-in MTTs and make 11 final tables, but make less profit than the amateur because how heavy the prize pool is towards the top spot. Which one would you guess is the better player? Probably the guy with 11 final tables.
The ast amount of your profit is determined by how you do at the final table. In 1000 decent sized (500 players +) MTTs, you're not going to see ery many final tables. Loads of ariance comes into ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: tenbob at December 11, 2006, 3:36 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ronaldadio
I assume tenbob has never put a bb on anyone and when he wins a tourny he always wins by pure skill, no luck at all???
You should write a poker book mate!!!
OMG OMG
Your trying to tell me that a 10 line post beats harringtons 3 books on MTT play ?????
Im a ery successful MTT player, and to be honest in any one game, yes your correct luck is a ery important factor, but over the course of 1000 games it pales into nothing in comparision to skill.
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 3:29 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by tenbob
OMG
Im going to do a proper MTT post tomorrow
What the guy is saying for me sounds about right. 40% luck???
It has got to be!!!
For example, this weekend I played one live MTT and 5 online
Live - pkt KK. Shortstacked, so pushed all in. Got called by guy with 1010 - he caught 10 on river.
Online - pkt AA. Flop A, 10, 8 rainbow. Got pushed all in. Other guy catches runner runner flush.
Online - pkt KK. Late in tourny. Slow played and short stack went all in. I called. He had 77. Hit 7 on river.
Online - pkt K2 in bb. 4 callers. Checked. Flop K27 rainbow. Eventually pushed all in. Other guy turns pair of 2`s giving him set.
And there are more!!!
The point is, and I have said this before on this site, to win a MTT you normally end up sucking out to place real high or to win. I know whenever I have won a tourny I can always recall one hand when I won a lot of chip showing say AQ AK... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: PopDog60 at December 11, 2006, 3:18 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
..I dont agree with that statement of 40% luck
Its pretty much all skill... i mean even if u are lucky to get the best hand, someone with skill could make u fold that hand..
so if u really think about it , skill should be alued at a higher % than luck.
P.S. Im not talking best hand like "nuts" im talking like pair of K's or w/e
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at December 11, 2006, 3:11 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by tenbob
OMG
Im going to do a proper MTT post tomorrow
I dont know dude, I think the OP has all the nuances of MTT strategy down perfectly, I don't see what you can possibly add to it.
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| Posted by: joosebuck at December 11, 2006, 3:09 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
"Luck (40%) - Luck is a big factor in MTTs. We can't control this factor at all."
dude how can a poker session that takes 6 hours++++ to win be 40% luck? people who routinely make the top 3% of fields dont get there by accident.
specific hands can be 99% luck 1% skill, but in the long run it's definetly 99% skill 1% luck
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| Posted by: Ronaldadio at December 11, 2006, 2:58 am | | Topic: 3 key areas to winning in MTT`s Forum: Card Chat |
Hi guys.
I found this on a website (I don`t wanna advertise it incase I get into trouble!!!)
I agreed 100% with what it says. What do you guys think???
MTT strategy requires three key components to be successful: Skill (30%) - A player must be skilled in order to win multi-table tournaments. You have to know when to hold'em and when to fold'em. When a tricky situation arises, you'll almost always want to fold more than call.Discipline (30%) - To win consistently you must have strong mental discipline. Most of the time, you'll be folding, because in MTTs, folding makes the money. The only tip I can give you regarding patience is to keep yourself occupied. Always try to predict what people have and take each blind level step by step.Luck (40%) - Luck is a big factor in MTTs. We can't control this factor at all.I think this sums up my thoughts on MTT. TAG is the way to be!!!
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