| Posted by: aliengenius at November 2, 2007, 4:22 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by findus
For discussion sake, what would happen in a game where the 'not allowed to tell the truth about your hand' rule was in effect, and a player did tell the truth (revealed at the showdown)? Would there be some kind of ruling by thte dealer?
First of all that is probably the stupidest rule EVER in the history of bad rules, even stupider than the misinterpretation of "show one show all" to refer to all cards instead of all the players, and even stupider than the you can't show a card rule.
Why? Because by definition, if you restrict truth telling, everyone is forced to "tell the truth" anyway. Steve Zolotow put it nicely in a recent article:
"As long as we know that our opponent must be lying, we can assume the opposite is the truth. Unless players are allowed to use some mix of truth and lies, they effectively are telling the truth."
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| Posted by: rob5775 at November 2, 2007, 4:19 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by findus
For discussion sake, what would happen in a game where the 'not allowed to tell the truth about your hand' rule was in effect, and a player did tell the truth (revealed at the showdown)? Would there be some kind of ruling by thte dealer?
That would be up to the pit boss, floor manager or tourney director. Typically if a rule is "in effect" then you would probably be timed out for a set amount of time or hands.
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| Posted by: findus at November 2, 2007, 3:13 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
For discussion sake, what would happen in a game where the 'not allowed to tell the truth about your hand' rule was in effect, and a player did tell the truth (revealed at the showdown)? Would there be some kind of ruling by thte dealer?
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| Posted by: dj11 at November 2, 2007, 12:07 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Ahhhh, perhaps therein lies the rub!
That gamesmanship, making the other guy believe you have something other than you really have, is an advanced concept. Regardless of how big the buy in is, many players are nowhere near that advanced.
We want fishes, and we don't want them thinking we are out to cheat them out of their money, we don't need to, we can out play them, but we must consider adopting almost every safeguard possible to create the appearance of the most level playing field.
So, I think AG got it close to right. In the Gus s Dannyboy argument, they know each other and are having fun, but suppose Gus was not Gus, but Oral Roberts ! (The mind boggles). Dan doesn't know Oral, nor isa ersa, and in that case I think flipping a card would be wrong.
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| Posted by: Cheezymadman at November 1, 2007, 3:16 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
I'm with Daniel. Poker at the highest levels isn't about having the cards, it's about making the other guy think you have the cards. It's gamesmanship.
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| Posted by: mendozaline at November 1, 2007, 2:59 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by OzExorcist
After Dark example that Rob linked to above............................................. ..
You mightn't see the point to it and wouldn't do it, I probably wouldn't do it, but I think what Daniel's saying is just that if he wants to do it, he should be allowed to.
Ok, I got you. I missed that clip before.
Yeah, I tend to agree now. If he wants to do it, let him. If you think about it though, what he's saying is that he doesn't want Gus to call him. He's feeding out the fact that he has pocket aces. Why would he do that? Because he knows that if Gus calls him, he could lose to who knows what? He's more than happy to end it there. Remember that Daniel is a master of calling with 10 7 offsuit. He knows anytime he calls or gets called he might win or lose. He doesn't want anything more than taking the pot down right then and there.
Gus should have called him, for no other reason than Daniel didn't want him to.
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| Posted by: OzExorcist at October 31, 2007, 11:00 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by mendozaline
It's not at all clear to me how showing a card helps you trick the other guy, which is what it seems like Daniel wants to accomplish.
Can someone post an example?
Take a look at the Poker After Dark example that Rob linked to above.
You mightn't see the point to it and wouldn't do it, I probably wouldn't do it, but I think what Daniel's saying is just that if he wants to do it, he should be allowed to.
The rule that I don't get is the one where you're not allowed to tell someone what your hand is, but you are allowed to lie about it. If you've got a flush, it's against the rules to say "I have a flush". But you can say "I have a straight" with impunity.
In that case, I think the rule only makes things worse. If someone says "I have a flush", within the rules you have to assume that they're lying. And that's dangerous if the other player is willing to go outside the rules an... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: mendozaline at October 31, 2007, 9:57 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
I don't get what Daniel, or anyone else who wants to "show", gets out of showing the card. Can someone give us an example of how Daniel benefits from showing his opponent one card? I understand his use of the "advertising" play after the hand is over, but this one escapes me.
In one of Doyle Brunson's books he tells a story about a hand he was about to fold, when his opponent said, "wait how about if i show you a card." But, the bottom line to that story was that Doyle was able to deduce that he had the guy beat (I forget what the game was), and quickly called and raised. The opponent was fit to be tied, "how can you raise, when a minute ago you were going to fold?"
But the bottom line was that the guy who saw the card benefited, and not the shower. It's not at all clear to me how showing a card helps you trick the other guy, which is what it seems like Daniel wants to accomplish.
Can someone post an example?
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| Posted by: aliengenius at October 31, 2007, 9:20 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by findus
When it's down to two people in any hand, I cannot see a problem with a player showing one of their cards at any point. Why WOULD it be a problem?
The argument (I think) goes something like this: player A fold, player B shows his cards to player C (heads up), who then makes a decision with information that player A did not have at the time he made his decision.
Again, I don't see how people are "agreeing" with Lee Jones' points: he didn't make this argument, or any other, so how can you agree with non-existent points?? He simply gave his opinion without any backing, alluding to some "mathematical" reason that he keeps to himself.
Of course, I don't agree that the argument is alid. Lots of information becomes available later that earlier acting players don't have access to. What if player B folds, giving player C a walk? Player A can't then demand his cards back, claiming that if he had know B was folding... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dj11 at October 31, 2007, 8:04 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
I can see both sides. If you show a card it brings a bit of old 5 stud into the play. 5 stud was the game I learned about bluffing.
As this is about a Holdem Tourney, I can see why Lee's position is good.
But overall this is poker, where the cards are often secondary or less even.
I can think of ery few situations where it would be advantageous to do such a thing, and perhaps Danial is getting bored with the game, and should concentrate and beating Phil Ivy at golf.
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| Posted by: findus at October 31, 2007, 7:42 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
When it's down to two people in any hand, I cannot see a problem with a player showing one of their cards at any point. Why WOULD it be a problem?
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| Posted by: rob5775 at October 31, 2007, 2:29 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Here is an interesting ideo with Daniel and Gus Hansen on Poker after Dark. I watched this show the other night and remembered Daniel had ranted about this subject in Poker Player Mag. not too long ago. If you want to skip most of the ideo (it's mostly Hansen going into the tank), then go to around the 4 minute mark.
YouTube - Poker After Dark - Negreanu Puts Hansen Thru The Wringer
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| Posted by: aliengenius at October 31, 2007, 2:27 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
What?? Lee Jones has not made ANY argument here, except to claim some secret "mathematical" reason for the rule that he does not reveal. The argument isn't about IF there is such a rule, it's about if there SHOULD be such a rule.
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| Posted by: zachvac at October 31, 2007, 2:23 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
I understand that the current rules I think support Jones, but if I were to be able to change the rules of poker I'd change them so that you can show one. Seems like a alid strategy. Didn't Gold do a similar thing in the WSOP he won?
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| Posted by: dj11 at October 31, 2007, 2:05 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
Before I offer up any thoughts I need one questions answered because I do not know the answer.
Setting; Casino ring game any stakes but playing the predominant casino rules.
Assume a full table. One large raise, everyone folds to the last player who can act
Is it legal to do that in a heads up situation at a ring table?
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| Posted by: reglardave at October 31, 2007, 2:00 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
To me, it seems pretty clear that Lee is right, and Daniel is wrong. And I think whatever panel was chosen from the list would agree.
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| Posted by: thebigeasy59 at October 31, 2007, 1:55 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
I'm actually with daniel on this one. The cards in your hand are your own and you should have the right to do as you wish with them. Furthermore, I have never heard a pro player complain about someone being able to show a card, and when that rule came in to play people started complaining big time. It should be about what the players want, and the pros are the best people to represent all of the players in the world.
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| Posted by: KingNothing4 at October 31, 2007, 12:58 am | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
I think if u r heads up it should be as option for strategy because as of right now I do not get how that has a negative effect on the game, it seems like a form of bluffing, maybe showing on A with KQJ on the flop leaving them to guess if u have the 10...
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| Posted by: Dorkus Malorkus at October 30, 2007, 9:22 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
It may just be me, but it seems pretty clear that Lee is right. In the example quoted, SB showing a card, and hence giving BB free information, would clearly put the player on the button, who has already folded, at a disadvantage.
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| Posted by: pantin007 at October 30, 2007, 8:38 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
both of the have alid points
but for te sake of the game i would have to say lee is right
daniel would just prefer to show a card because it can make him more $$
and lose less when he sees a card he doesnt like
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| Posted by: withawedge at October 30, 2007, 8:29 pm | | Topic: Lee Jones or Daniel Negreanau Forum: Card Chat |
All,
The following is taken from Lee Jones's blog. A good discussion point and one I agree with Lee on. You decide.
Note: Daniel Negreanu is not only a great poker player, but he’s one of the nicest guys in the business – a true gentleman. PokerStars did really well to get him onto their Team. This is a professional disagreement that he and I are having, nothing more.
So, during the WCOOP main event last week, Daniel Negreanu was the guest host on the radio coverage that PokerStars does for the tournament. During that coverage, he made some comments about tournament rules. There was one particular comment he made that really rubbed me the wrong way. In essence, he said that if two players are in a tournament hand heads-up (even with other players still in the tournament), that one of the players should be allowed to show a single card during the play of the hand – that it’s part of the game’s strategy. What really bugged me was that he said that it was tournament directors (i.e. pe... | | Read Entire Entry |
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