| Posted by: DaFrench1 at November 19, 2007, 12:28 pm | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
With the Bodog hand in the screenshot above, I'd love to know if someone folded the 9 5!!
EDIT: Actually I didn't see the 6 on the end was diamonds. Damn, who still uses 2 color decks!
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| Posted by: dakota-xx at November 19, 2007, 11:32 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Cheetah
This phenomenon of "selective memory" to support rigged "theories" is similar to "bad-luck theories" or superstitions in general.
Interestigly, superstitions are not unique to humans but also observed in animals. Apparently the brain has a tendency to correlate events that have no causal relationship. It seems that this can happen spontaneously by "observing" a pattern that is a coincidence, and then selectively remembering all the times this random pattern is confirmed (and forgetting the times it is not).
Here is an exerpt about the original research into superstitions in animals:
"One of Skinner's experiments examined the formation of superstition in one of his favorite experimental animals, the pigeon. Skinner placed a series of hungry pigeons in a cage attached to an automatic mechanism that delivered food to the pigeon "at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dj12inches at November 19, 2007, 5:34 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
If you knew Kennedy was assasinated by the CIA - then why didnt you leave the USA?
If you knew poker was rigged - why didnt you stop playing?
All theories aside - it's still fun.
Somebody created all of this and now you dont have to wait a month to get some drunk buddies together before you can play a round. I'll believe that they are trying to get rich - and bless them, if it keeps me playing, I'm happy. I can sharpen my skills, win some and lose some, and then take it to Vegas or the WigWam. I am sorry that many of you are tired of the debate - but dialog is necessary for creating change. Perhaps things will be regulated one day. I hope to see online casinos that are regulated by a state agency like Nevada's - maybe credibility can grow that into fair business practice. Besides, I would like to earn points towards free rooms in Vegas or something. Thanks for chiming in even though you are tired of hearing it. It is a new discussion to a newb like me, and I like hearing both sides. | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: juiceeQ at November 19, 2007, 5:23 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by DaFrench1
So let me see, yep, true to form the post has panned out as expected. We've had the 'no statistical anomalies, some number crunchers that nobody knows and who never provide data are on top of it for you', the comparison with a live game, the off-topic side conversation to make the OP seem irrelevant, the explanation of why people who even consider that there might be any rigging taking place are delusional, and the random bad beat to discredit even further. Yep, everything in order there. Definitely no randomness there at least. Usually the same posters too.
But wait, wheres the ariance guy? He's late! Well I guess its Sunday so we can forgive him that. I tell you what, I'll fill in for him.
Now BitznBitez, did you know that if you toss a coin 100 times yadda, yadda, yadda? No? Well, there you go. Undisputable evidence that poker isn't rigged. Oh and BTW I hope you've got a couple of trillion hands in Poker Tracker to back up what y... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: BitznBites at November 19, 2007, 5:12 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
I did not mean to imply that every hand on every table was "adjusted". 5, 10, 15 percent??? 10 percent of $50M is a goodly chunk of change. If this was done every hand it would be counter productive people would howl and they would lose the fish. I just think it's done for just a little extra boost....boost the profits, keep the shareholders happy, keep the chairman happy, get a nice little promotion....Who knows. As I said, if you play good solid poker you can win. If you are counting on the donkey not to make his flush on the river you're probably gonna lose more than in the same situation in a live game with a real shuffle.
I did not expect to really convince anyone....I expected to get lotsa flames for not keeping to the "Party Line". This is just my opinion, something I've wanted to say for sometime. If I've hurt anybodies feelings I'm sorry. I think common sense and a look at the greed that seems to permeate the corporate culture these days are good arguments that thin... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DaFrench1 at November 19, 2007, 4:46 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
So let me see, yep, true to form the post has panned out as expected. We've had the 'no statistical anomalies, some number crunchers that nobody knows and who never provide data are on top of it for you', the comparison with a live game, the off-topic side conversation to make the OP seem irrelevant, the explanation of why people who even consider that there might be any rigging taking place are delusional, and the random bad beat to discredit even further. Yep, everything in order there. Definitely no randomness there at least. Usually the same posters too.
But wait, wheres the ariance guy? He's late! Well I guess its Sunday so we can forgive him that. I tell you what, I'll fill in for him.
Now BitznBitez, did you know that if you toss a coin 100 times yadda, yadda, yadda? No? Well, there you go. Undisputable evidence that poker isn't rigged. Oh and BTW I hope you've got a couple of trillion hands in Poker Tracker to back up what you are saying!
There we go, another job well ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: unlucky79 at November 19, 2007, 4:31 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by BitznBites
This is long but I just gotta get it off my chest.
First let me say right up front, that I DO NOT think online poker is rigged to favor any one player. I think that poker sites are rigged to juice the pot, thus making for more rake and more profit.
There are several reasons why I think online poker is rigged. They are both from observation and from real world logic and experience.
Any company or corporation is in the business of making money, as much money as possible, in any way that it can be made. If Company A can make $50 million a month that’s great, but if it can $50M and 50 cents that’s better. If it can make that extra .50 cents in some unethical or illegal way without getting caught then it’s all good. The larger the company or corporation, or the more money involved, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. There will be some underling out to impress his boss (who is out to impress his boss) tha... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: unlucky79 at November 19, 2007, 4:29 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by K_Kahne_Fan
2nd hand after sitting down. Figured you might like that 3 players had suited pockets with a flush flop...
Thats crazy can anyone do the math on the odds on that!!!!
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| Posted by: unlucky79 at November 19, 2007, 4:28 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Tygran
You aren't going to get any sympathy on this board and this post is going to get nothing but replies along the lines of "Here we go again!".
That's all well and good but your post and every other one like it all say the same thing "I THINK IT'S RIGGED! IT HAS TO BE RIGGED! LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, NO WAY THAT CAN BE RANDOM!". Every single rigged post boils down to what I just said.
Don't know why I'm replying to this but I'm bored.
Statistically, these sites are kept ery close track of by alot of people. If they were rigged, there would be obvious statistically anomalies. There aren't. There just simply aren't. If there were they would lose business and go out of business, and the sites know this. Random means you can get anything at any time. Random means what you just got last hand, or the last hour, makes absolutely no difference at all to what you get next hand (or what your oppenents will get.... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DaFrench1 at November 19, 2007, 4:11 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vollycat
if you think it's rigged and you continue to play, why are you still playing? Why would you ever play in a fixed game?!? That's even more moronic then griping about it in the first place when you really havn't done the research to prove jack crap.
Well, no-one said it wasn't fun! And if its still profitable then why not?
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| Posted by: Cheetah at November 19, 2007, 3:17 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
This phenomenon of "selective memory" to support rigged "theories" is similar to "bad-luck theories" or superstitions in general.
Interestigly, superstitions are not unique to humans but also observed in animals. Apparently the brain has a tendency to correlate events that have no causal relationship. It seems that this can happen spontaneously by "observing" a pattern that is a coincidence, and then selectively remembering all the times this random pattern is confirmed (and forgetting the times it is not).
Here is an exerpt about the original research into superstitions in animals:
"One of Skinner's experiments examined the formation of superstition in one of his favorite experimental animals, the pigeon. Skinner placed a series of hungry pigeons in a cage attached to an automatic mechanism that delivered food to the pigeon "at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior." He discovered that the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: wsorbust at November 19, 2007, 2:31 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote:
LOL! Then they'd just find away around it like cussing in table chat.
Na. It would be something like. You can't use an "R" with two "G"'s in the same word or a g two letters away from an R, along with not allowing numbers in. There are clever programming ways to stop people from using what the common person would do, such as in your examples. Stars took minimal steps in attempting to stop "bad" words from showing up, as they should, because it doesn't really matter. My solution was more for fun anyway.
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| Posted by: dj12inches at November 19, 2007, 2:28 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Thank you.
I understand the distinction.
I can also understand the frustration with people that have heard this over and over again. Reading the entire body of posts in a large forum such as this one is daunting, at best. Also - who wants to participate in old conversations that have taken place in the past. There are new members here, such as myself that only search through the new threads, because they are current and relevant. Discussion is better when it is fresh, IMO - so I have found this thread to be 'new' even though the topic is old.
That being said - I dont want to bore anybody else with my opinions, but the games seem the same as the live games I play at in LV and San Diego Indian casinos.
/thread
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| Posted by: K_Kahne_Fan at November 19, 2007, 2:26 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by MrSticker
LOL! Then they'd just find away around it like cussing in table chat.
R.igged
R1gg3d
Ri99ed
Rigd
LOL!
Use the censor feature to make...
rigged --> (I'm on tilt)
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| Posted by: MrSticker at November 19, 2007, 2:24 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by wsorbust
There must something CC can implement for anyone who attempts to use "Rigged", disallowing the post to go through.
Then, if they still want to post about it, they'll have to be calm and sly enough to do a work-around.
LOL! Then they'd just find away around it like cussing in table chat.
R.igged
R1gg3d
Ri99ed
Rigd
LOL!
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| Posted by: K_Kahne_Fan at November 19, 2007, 2:24 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by dj12inches
I dont understand who benefits.
I mean, if you are at a SNG table and everybody pays the same - the site does not benefit. On Bodog - they take their .20 cents or whatever - but the players keep the rest for winning.
Am I wrong here?
JB
If you wanted to go with this, I guess you could say, bigger pots = quicker turnover of tables = people rebuying into tournies quicker, especially HU. That's the only possible way it could effect SNG's or MTT's.
There, helped the theorists with another though
As for cheaters, weather it be bots, players, sites... whoever use Ferguson's example and start with freerolls. He has hard proof (on one site at least) that weather it's rigged or not, you can win. Let other people put the money in that you collect. If you never put money in you won't have anything to lose. Between all the theorists out there and the donks I end up playing/losing against (including myse... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: wsorbust at November 19, 2007, 2:16 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
There must something CC can implement for anyone who attempts to use "Rigged", disallowing the post to go through.
Then, if they still want to post about it, they'll have to be calm and sly enough to do a work-around.
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| Posted by: Vollycat at November 19, 2007, 2:07 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
JB--
Your logic has no place in this thread because everyone is talking about cash/ring games where each and every hand the house will scrape up to $3. You are right about sng's. But that has no point here, because they are obviously talking about ring and not tournies.
The house has an obvious desire to see action on each hand because they will make $3 X 60 hands per hour or $180 per hour on each table. There's the math.
The problem that the original poster has is that he is bringing up a topic that is so hashed over in SO many forums, SOOO many times that people are sick of listening to the whining.
I guess my take on it is, if you think it's rigged and you continue to play, why are you still playing? Why would you ever play in a fixed game?!? That's even more moronic then griping about it in the first place when you really havn't done the research to prove jack crap.
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| Posted by: dj12inches at November 19, 2007, 1:48 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by BitznBites
This is long but I just gotta get it off my chest.
First let me say right up front, that I DO NOT think online poker is rigged to favor any one player. I think that poker sites are rigged to juice the pot, thus making for more rake and more profit.
My logic has no place in this thread? Then what the hell is he talking about? What rake? The fee a site takes to enter a tournament? In cash games?
The point of it all is that cheating is supposed to benefit somebody. If a site is rigged - who does it benefit - and exactly how does that cash get into their hands because of juiced pots? Pure statistical analysis and probability aside - somebody is rigging something in order to accomplish something. What is that?
JB
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| Posted by: WVHillbilly at November 19, 2007, 1:34 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by dj12inches
I dont understand who benefits.
I mean, if you are at a SNG table and everybody pays the same - the site does not benefit. On Bodog - they take their .20 cents or whatever - but the players keep the rest for winning.
Am I wrong here?
JB
Your logic has no place in this thread.
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| Posted by: dj12inches at November 19, 2007, 1:16 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
I dont understand who benefits.
I mean, if you are at a SNG table and everybody pays the same - the site does not benefit. On Bodog - they take their .20 cents or whatever - but the players keep the rest for winning.
Am I wrong here?
JB
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| Posted by: DaFrench1 at November 19, 2007, 1:12 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Irexes
If what you were saying is true then the thousands of data miners and analysers out there would be able to prove it. Not speculate but statistically demonstrate it.
(as a really small example we had a thread a while back where a number of us with decent sized pokertrakcer databases post occurance of pocket pairs, even though the sample were only in the tens of thousands it was all pretty close to the expected, the same can be done with flops)
I've heard this argument over and over, and it seems to be the most popular defence of the 'not rigged' camp. But the thing is this, the cards dealt can be randomly spread, you only have to rig the board cards to marry cards to the players that have called the hand. Then if the board cards are being matched to random cards obviously the flops will appear to be random as well. Its beautiful really from a scam point of iew.
Also, another thing is that unfortunately Texas Holdem is probably... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: reglardave at November 19, 2007, 1:07 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Irexes
If what you were saying is true then the thousands of data miners and analysers out there would be able to prove it. Not speculate but statistically demonstrate it.
(as a really small example we had a thread a while back where a number of us with decent sized pokertrakcer databases post occurance of pocket pairs, even though the sample were only in the tens of thousands it was all pretty close to the expected, the same can be done with flops)
And they are checked by auditors and many of the companies are listed on stock exchanges.
But most importantly...
Random means patterns will occur and unlikely things will happen. It doesn't mean equal distribution of events over anything other than the ery long run. The human brain looks for patterns in order to make sense of the universe even when they don't exist. Hence astrology for example.
Lots of threads on all of this already, type "rigged" in the searc... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: WVHillbilly at November 19, 2007, 12:44 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Last weekend I was dealt JJ 3 hands in a row. Explain that!
BTW, it was at my buddies house, so he's obviously just trying to make his home game more exciting and generate more action. Live poker is sooooo rigged!
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| Posted by: combuboom at November 19, 2007, 12:36 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by BitznBites
To that I would say just observe. If you play multiple tables watch to see how often a hand on table A would win on table B or C. How often is there some kind of coordination between tables? How often do you get the same cards at the same time on 2 or more tables? Just look for patterns. If you see patterns IT’S NOT RANDOM!! If it’s not random there is a reason for it.
stopped reading at this ridiculous part. selective memory, anyone? i mean are you honestly going to remember the times you got dealt K8s on one table and 33 on another table and missed both flops that were of completely different textures. like you're really going to think "oh wow, those cards and flops were completely different!"
the problem is you're just selecting what you're 'looking for' as you see it. if the boards are similar on two tables, you say "oh a pattern!" if your starting hands are similar on two tables, you say "... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: arkadiy at November 19, 2007, 12:27 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
Well, why is it when I have AA does no one else have an "all-in" hand?
I had AA x 3 times today, every single time it was either folded down to me (big blind) or folded to any raise.
Theory dead?
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| Posted by: Tygran at November 19, 2007, 12:25 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
You aren't going to get any sympathy on this board and this post is going to get nothing but replies along the lines of "Here we go again!".
That's all well and good but your post and every other one like it all say the same thing "I THINK IT'S RIGGED! IT HAS TO BE RIGGED! LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, NO WAY THAT CAN BE RANDOM!". Every single rigged post boils down to what I just said.
Don't know why I'm replying to this but I'm bored.
Statistically, these sites are kept ery close track of by alot of people. If they were rigged, there would be obvious statistically anomalies. There aren't. There just simply aren't. If there were they would lose business and go out of business, and the sites know this. Random means you can get anything at any time. Random means what you just got last hand, or the last hour, makes absolutely no difference at all to what you get next hand (or what your oppenents will get..or for that matter HOW YOUR OPPONENTS WILL PLAY WH... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Irexes at November 19, 2007, 12:01 am | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
If what you were saying is true then the thousands of data miners and analysers out there would be able to prove it. Not speculate but statistically demonstrate it.
(as a really small example we had a thread a while back where a number of us with decent sized pokertrakcer databases post occurance of pocket pairs, even though the sample were only in the tens of thousands it was all pretty close to the expected, the same can be done with flops)
And they are checked by auditors and many of the companies are listed on stock exchanges.
But most importantly...
Random means patterns will occur and unlikely things will happen. It doesn't mean equal distribution of events over anything other than the ery long run. The human brain looks for patterns in order to make sense of the universe even when they don't exist. Hence astrology for example.
Lots of threads on all of this already, type "rigged" in the search box for more.
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| Posted by: BitznBites at November 18, 2007, 11:52 pm | | Topic: Why I think online poker is rigged Forum: Card Chat |
This is long but I just gotta get it off my chest.
First let me say right up front, that I DO NOT think online poker is rigged to favor any one player. I think that poker sites are rigged to juice the pot, thus making for more rake and more profit.
There are several reasons why I think online poker is rigged. They are both from observation and from real world logic and experience.
Any company or corporation is in the business of making money, as much money as possible, in any way that it can be made. If Company A can make $50 million a month that’s great, but if it can $50M and 50 cents that’s better. If it can make that extra .50 cents in some unethical or illegal way without getting caught then it’s all good. The larger the company or corporation, or the more money involved, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. There will be some underling out to impress his boss (who is out to impress his boss) that will come up with a scheme to boost the company profi... | | Read Entire Entry |
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