| Posted by: ItalianJoey4 at December 14, 2007, 5:07 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by dj11
Let me screw up your thinking even more. It has been almost a year since I read thru the rng scheme used by both FT and PS, and others, but the concept of a deck doesn't work like you might think.
During any hand all the cards in play must be unduplicated and fit within the definition of a deck. But the available cards (i.e. the 'deck') is continually shuffling, and get this, it contains as many cards as there are in play at any instant on the whole site!.
If the site is showing there are 5000 tables playing, then there are 5000 Aces of spades available at any instant for your table. If there is an Ace of spades already in play at your table, and the dealer picks one of the other 4999 Ace's of spades, it is discarded and another card is picked. The shuffle is done at a pace measured down in the quantum time realm.
For all but the most theoretical of physicists amongst us, the reading of the method, which doesn't even go into muc... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KyleJRM at December 14, 2007, 4:10 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by K_Kahne_Fan
I personally don't dislike the constant shuffle for "rigged" reasons. I dislike it because it's kind of like playing a hold em' slot machine instead. If you click at the wrong mili-second, you could change your own hand. I like it when they're preset from the deal. I know some say "it doesn't matter"... but it really does. If the hand is constantly changing, is it really equally "fair" to all players, or is it equally un-fair to all players? Deal the deck and give me what was dealt. If your system sucks so much that you're afraid of hackers, change your system. I think with the encryption these days it would have to be an inside job to pull it off anyway.
Would you go to a casino where the dealer continually shuffled after the deal? Shuffled after the flop/turn/river?
Absolutely, I'd have no problem playing poker with such a dealer. There is logically and mathematically no difference to the two meth... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: K_Kahne_Fan at December 14, 2007, 2:50 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
I personally don't dislike the constant shuffle for "rigged" reasons. I dislike it because it's kind of like playing a hold em' slot machine instead. If you click at the wrong mili-second, you could change your own hand. I like it when they're preset from the deal. I know some say "it doesn't matter"... but it really does. If the hand is constantly changing, is it really equally "fair" to all players, or is it equally un-fair to all players? Deal the deck and give me what was dealt. If your system sucks so much that you're afraid of hackers, change your system. I think with the encryption these days it would have to be an inside job to pull it off anyway.
Would you go to a casino where the dealer continually shuffled after the deal? Shuffled after the flop/turn/river?
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| Posted by: Pokah Man at December 13, 2007, 6:58 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Why would it make me feel better? I ask - why wouldn't it make you feel better? I just would like to have the cards that are coming to come from an original shuffle - like in a real poker game - just call me old fashioned I guess - that would take some mystery out of those amazing rivers we have all seen time and time and time and time and time and time again - I am NOT getting into or saying Internet Poker is "rigged" - to me the word "rigged" is way to broad of a term to use - but - I have always suspected Poker Sites to use some methods to keep "newbs" "donks" "bad players" from losing their last dime they are playing on and leaving the Site for good - why? - here is the way I see it from a business standpoint - if most people were new players and deposited their hard earned money on a Poker Site - 1. do you think if they lost it in a matter of a day or so they would just dig back in their pocket and reload day after day after day? 2. do you think if ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: zachvac at December 13, 2007, 4:05 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
I'm sorry, I messed up on the last post. It wasn't atmospheric entropy, it was server entropy I think. So basically the heat given off by the server is part of the equation. I was thinking of the random.org RNG that uses atmospheric activity.
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| Posted by: zachvac at December 13, 2007, 4:04 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Pokah Man
I would still feel better with one deck - shuffle - deal hole cards - flop/turn/river comes from original shuffle - would that be impossible to do or something? I actually emailed Poker Stars and asked the method they use - the email they sent back said that Poker Stars does the(1 shuffle) method - they did say that other Poker Sites use that shuffle/shuffle/shuffle/shuffle scenario - maybe some people have the shuffle/shuffle/shuffle method figured out and know when to click/click/click and catch that miracle 1/2/3/4 outter when needed.
Why would you feel better? That way is more prone to hacking, not that pokerstars can be hacked. The point is, why do the methods matter, the deck should be treated like a black box by you. Does it matter if the cards are scattered and a dog picks one, you get to pick one from all of them facedown, or your opponent gets to do that? As long as each card has an equal probability of coming up next, who cares w... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: K_Kahne_Fan at December 13, 2007, 3:38 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Pokah Man
...I actually emailed Poker Stars and asked the method they use - the email they sent back said that Poker Stars does the(1 shuffle) method...
Great info, thanks!
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| Posted by: Pokah Man at December 13, 2007, 12:48 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
I would still feel better with one deck - shuffle - deal hole cards - flop/turn/river comes from original shuffle - would that be impossible to do or something? I actually emailed Poker Stars and asked the method they use - the email they sent back said that Poker Stars does the(1 shuffle) method - they did say that other Poker Sites use that shuffle/shuffle/shuffle/shuffle scenario - maybe some people have the shuffle/shuffle/shuffle method figured out and know when to click/click/click and catch that miracle 1/2/3/4 outter when needed.
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| Posted by: KyleJRM at December 12, 2007, 8:35 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by dj11
It is curios that I can not find a great definition of the dealing methods currently in use. There is a description from Ultimatebet/support/random number generator. I could not find anything about FT's current RNG. I have requested a link.
This is one of those things where we, the players, sort of have to just have faith that the sites are on top of this. Makes it tough on us agnostics.
Or we could gather hundreds of thousands (and more) hands and study to see if they conform to random distribution.
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| Posted by: dj11 at December 12, 2007, 6:34 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
It is curios that I can not find a great definition of the dealing methods currently in use. There is a description from Ultimatebet/support/random number generator. I could not find anything about FT's current RNG. I have requested a link.
This is one of those things where we, the players, sort of have to just have faith that the sites are on top of this. Makes it tough on us agnostics.
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| Posted by: K_Kahne_Fan at December 12, 2007, 6:34 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
It really only matters for the shoulda' coulda' woulda's out there. If you're the type of player who still 'cares' about the flop/turn/river after you've folded, this would kill you because you don't know exactly how the hand would have turned out. However, I look at it as though if I 'woulda' hit, I really wouldn't have hit because it would've been a different hand had I played.
What does kind of suck though is that when you/others play could change the next card(s) to be played. That's the only part I personally don't like is that even though it's "fair" that we all received the on the turn, that could have given someone else their str8/flush and messed my hand up. Whereas had I clicked "call/raise" a few seconds off than when I did, and we all (now) received the "fair" it may have completed my royal. Granted it all is supposed to come out even in the long run, but if that 1 card just finished off your stack, which may have finished off your BR... then the long r... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dj11 at December 12, 2007, 6:01 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Let me screw up your thinking even more. It has been almost a year since I read thru the rng scheme used by both FT and PS, and others, but the concept of a deck doesn't work like you might think.
During any hand all the cards in play must be unduplicated and fit within the definition of a deck. But the available cards (i.e. the 'deck') is continually shuffling, and get this, it contains as many cards as there are in play at any instant on the whole site!.
If the site is showing there are 5000 tables playing, then there are 5000 Aces of spades available at any instant for your table. If there is an Ace of spades already in play at your table, and the dealer picks one of the other 4999 Ace's of spades, it is discarded and another card is picked. The shuffle is done at a pace measured down in the quantum time realm.
For all but the most theoretical of physicists amongst us, the reading of the method, which doesn't even go into much detail, is a headache producing, mind boggling ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: aliengenius at December 12, 2007, 5:59 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by zachvac
This makes absolutely no difference. The card is unknown to you until it is flipped over. Why do you care if it's also unknown to the computer until it's flipped over?
^^^this.
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| Posted by: zachvac at December 12, 2007, 3:53 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Pokah Man
yes - I really don't like the sound of the deck being shuffled like that - it leaves a little too much to the imagination - and my imagination has been running on overtime here lately - I could see the point as doing that for security reasons - but - I still don't like the sound of it. Thanks for the reply!
This makes absolutely no difference. The card is unknown to you until it is flipped over. Why do you care if it's also unknown to the computer until it's flipped over?
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| Posted by: bubbasbestbabe at December 12, 2007, 12:11 am | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Emperor IX
I'm not going to open up another page before typing my answer because I HATE laptop mousepads, .
Get a laptop mouse. They work great.
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| Posted by: Pokah Man at December 11, 2007, 11:03 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
yes - I really don't like the sound of the deck being shuffled like that - it leaves a little too much to the imagination - and my imagination has been running on overtime here lately - I could see the point as doing that for security reasons - but - I still don't like the sound of it. Thanks for the reply!
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| Posted by: Emperor IX at December 11, 2007, 10:48 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
I'm not going to open up another page before typing my answer because I HATE laptop mousepads, but I believe the deck is continuously shuffled throughout the whole hand. I don't like the sound of it personally, since I prefer one shuffle then a hand being dealt, but I guess it would help prevent cheating if someone were able to access the RNG.
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| Posted by: Pokah Man at December 11, 2007, 10:46 pm | | Topic: Poker Random Number Generator (RNG) Forum: Card Chat |
Can anyone explain in detail how this works? I read a while back that it has something to do with the clicks of your mouse? Like after everyone gets their hole cards - does the deck keep shuffling until its time to deal out the flop/turn/river? or after you get your hole cards are the board cards that are coming already determined like in a live game?
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