| Posted by: arahel_jazz at December 27, 2007, 3:52 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Notice chip swing:
PokerStars Game #14122347608: Tournament #71071352, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/12/26 - 22:44:28 (ET)
Table '71071352 401' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: deltagreen2 (2200 in chips)
Seat 2: 7thstreet (6975 in chips)
Seat 3: charlie160 (420 in chips)
Seat 4: KYLEADAM (1535 in chips)
Seat 5: lobsterking1 (3450 in chips)
Seat 6: pollus33 (520 in chips)
Seat 7: choblar (5180 in chips)
Seat 8: arahel_jazz (13370 in chips)
Seat 9: steviekid113 (1103 in chips) is sitting out
pollus33: posts small blind 50
choblar: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to arahel_jazz [Ks Kd]
arahel_jazz: raises 300 to 400
steviekid113: folds
deltagreen2: folds
7thstreet: raises 300 to 700
charlie160: folds
KYLEADAM has timed out
KYLEADAM: folds
KYLEADAM is sitting out
lobsterking1: folds
pollus33: folds
choblar: raises 300 to 1000
arahel_jazz: r... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: philthy at December 26, 2007, 10:50 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by royalburrito24
Philthy, I am not quite sure I get what you are trying to say???
Sorry, that shouldve been a 5 on the board.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 10:47 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by philthy
edit: I thought a cooler was when you have a monster of hand that you cant fold (because you're pot commited, the sheer strengh of your hand or whatever), but you run into a slightly better hand.
EX: You on a flop of 462K2, you hold 55522 but your opponent just has you beat with 66622.
Philthy, I am not quite sure I get what you are trying to say???
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| Posted by: philthy at December 26, 2007, 10:36 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
edit: I thought a cooler was when you have a monster of hand that you cant fold (because you're pot commited, the sheer strengh of your hand or whatever), but you run into a slightly better hand.
EX: You on a flop of 562K2, you hold 55522 but your opponent just has you beat with 66622.
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| Posted by: Lo-Dog at December 26, 2007, 10:03 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Here is a definition I found, that I agree with.
COOLER: This is a hand that you lose (usually a large pot) with that cannot be helped. For example...
You have KK. Your opponent has AA. Flop comes AKK, the turn card a 3, and the River card an Ace.
This example is extreme, but you get the idea. There is no way that either one of you will be folding this hand, and therefore you lose a large pot.
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 26, 2007, 9:54 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by royalburrito24
Very good definition, and AK is ery avoidable in certain situations. I think that for a cooler to occur, it should be unavoidable in all situations.
Nothing is unavoidable in all situations. There are no coolers ever by that definition. You really want to avoid absolutes like that in poker and in poker thinking.
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| Posted by: naruto_miu at December 26, 2007, 9:00 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Gus and Danile N, that was a cooler (I still laugh when I think about Gus's last comment) "I wasn't happy, when I seen that first 5 but, what a guy"
Cooler is pair over pair, and then set over set, and then boat over quads, more or less the bottom pair beating you when in all fairness you had the lead up untill the river.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 8:42 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
I found what I believe to be a little cooler. Awkwardly played by illain.
Full Tilt Poker Game #4631845506: Table Strato Jet - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:27:42 ET - 2007/12/26
Seat 1: Michaelmap85 ($7.05)
Seat 2: racecar014 ($11.55)
Seat 3: royalburrito24 ($8.20)
Seat 4: MateAmaargo ($2.20)
Seat 5: K-TIME ($7.30), is sitting out
Seat 6: YESHBOOM ($9.85)
Seat 7: firemangreg ($1.20)
Seat 8: Caer58 ($4.20)
Seat 9: icekurtis ($1.40)
icekurtis posts the small blind of $0.05
Michaelmap85 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to royalburrito24 [3s 3c]
racecar014 raises to $0.35
royalburrito24 calls $0.35
MateAmaargo folds
YESHBOOM folds
firemangreg folds
Caer58 folds
icekurtis folds
Michaelmap85 calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Ts 9s Qd]
Michaelmap85 checks
racecar014 has 15 seconds left to act
racecar014 checks
royalburrito24 checks
*** TURN *** [T... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 7:59 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
Cooler: unavoidably getting your money in bad with a strong hand.
Very good definition, and AK is ery avoidable in certain situations. I think that for a cooler to occur, it should be unavoidable in all situations.
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| Posted by: dj11 at December 26, 2007, 7:43 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Well, looks like we are zeroing in on a good definition
It seems agreed that the coolee has a ery good hand, to great hand.
I'll add that a bad read is involved. I don't like any definition that includes all in PF. I prefer where one player is pushing and getting flat called believing he/she is ahead only to be blindsided at showdown. Thus the bad read.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 5:55 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
Cooler: a strong hand that runs into a (rare) stronger hand for all the money on early streets, where the weaker hand goes broke due to the unavoidable circumstances.
I do not like how you used early streets in your definition here. That is easily changeable because a cooler can easily happen at showdown as well.
Although I do agree with your definition about a strong hand running into a (rare) stronger hand, with AK I just do not see it, especially in this situation where you are faced with a raise, I do not see someone being certain that they are dominating their opponent.
I guess the argument could go back and forth for days and days, but I guess I just cannot grasp how AK could be coolerd all in pre flop.
The example I gave in the OP is probably not the best example, but it is what prompted the argument in the first place.
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| Posted by: dj11 at December 26, 2007, 5:44 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
My definition of a cooler takes into account that fact that you must have been on some heat, and your chipstack is ery good to great.
I don't think busting out qualifies. Nor do suckouts.
Best example might be the set over set where you have the most chips, and a set, and illain has the bigger set and is sitting behind you. And you both flopped these sets. First to act, you are pushing, pushing then shoving when the board looks bad, and you have every reason to believe you are ahead until that horrifying moment when the cards turn and you realize you lost, are now crippled, and thoughts of 12 gauge shotguns start floating around .................
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 26, 2007, 5:33 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Cooler: a strong hand that runs into a (rare) stronger hand for all the money on early streets, where the weaker hand unavoidably goes broke due to the circumstances.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 5:29 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by kcanuck
From an article by Joe Sebok
I don't think there was anything I could have done to not go broke on this hand. It just hit us both late in a tournament and that's the way it goes. At the final table these hands are either going to go your way or they're not, meaning that you are either going to win or you are going to get sent home. You don't wanna sweat it too much if you figure there was nothing you could have done.
I do not think this is the definition of a cooler. It doesnt seem like Sebok was really defining a cooler, but rather an inevitable situation that arises during the late starges of an MTT. If you could post the situation that sebok is talking about, then I would be able to understand your argument a little better. But, for now, I think this definition is somewhat weak.
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| Posted by: kcanuck at December 26, 2007, 3:50 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
From an article by Joe Sebok
I don't think there was anything I could have done to not go broke on this hand. It just hit us both late in a tournament and that's the way it goes. At the final table these hands are either going to go your way or they're not, meaning that you are either going to win or you are going to get sent home. You don't wanna sweat it too much if you figure there was nothing you could have done.
This defines my perception of a cooler. It doesn't, however, prove or disprove anyone's arguements here.
IMHO it's like most things in poker...subjective and situational.
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 26, 2007, 3:23 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
How about this:
Cooler: a "reverse bad beat", where you actually get your money in behind early in the hand, but had no choice because of the situation.
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| Posted by: combuboom at December 26, 2007, 3:20 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
A cooler is when you play the hand well according the the probability, and thus can expect a certain outcome in almost all situations, but happen to find yourself in a bad spot.
well it's purely opinion but i think that's too general of a definition. basically means if a player who's played a hand well ever runs into a better hand, it's a cooler, because such a player is only going to get their money in when the odds (based on hand ranges and such) are in their favor. i mean, if this is the case i get "coolered" like 10 times a day. there are tons and tons of inevitabilities in poker (tournament poker especially) that are more or less set up by the cards, i just don't consider them all coolers. that definition seems too broad and pointless to me
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 26, 2007, 2:45 pm | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by royalburrito24
AG, I also understand what you are saying, but a cooler would be more like a made hand getting surprisingly beaten by a better made hand. AK isn't really a made hand, its really the highest ranked unmade hand pre flop, with ery ery large amounts of fold equity. Just becuase someone has fold equity like that does not mean that when they do get called by a dominating hand, they are going to experience a cooler.
I feel that the term cooler is used too loosely, especially in situations like these one where your hand isn't even a made one.
Made/unmade is irrelevant. AK has a ton of showdown equity s. a singe opponent (who can easily have a weaker ace), and can certainly win unimproved.
Cooler should be defined as having an expectation of x, and running into anti-x. If the ast majority of times you can expect to have either the best hand or be in a fair race, but run into one of two monsters, it's a cooler.
Your argume... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dufferdevon at December 26, 2007, 8:58 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
I think I had a "cooler" hand like this last night.
I have 33 - the flop comes 3d - 9s - Kh
Three callers - I bet the pot - next guy calls - other guys raises twice the pot - I call, so does the other guy
Next Card 7c - All-in am I, they all call
River As
I turn over 33
Next guy turns over 99
Last guy turns over AA
Three trips in one hand - that is a cooler
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| Posted by: zachvac at December 26, 2007, 7:34 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by royalburrito24
AG, I also understand what you are saying, but a cooler would be more like a made hand getting surprisingly beaten by a better made hand. AK isn't really a made hand, its really the highest ranked unmade hand pre flop, with ery ery large amounts of fold equity. Just becuase someone has fold equity like that does not mean that when they do get called by a dominating hand, they are going to experience a cooler.
I feel that the term cooler is used too loosely, especially in situations like these one where your hand isn't even a made one.
The thing is, what it is now means nothing. Even though an open-ended straight flush draw on the flop is just x high, it's still a favorite with 2 cards to come and I'd want all my money in with it. Made, unmade, it's all a matter of perspective. Preflop, 22 is a favorite over AK. 22 is a made hand and AK is not. Please don't try to tell me you'd rather be all-in against an unknown (not random, just u... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 7:13 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
I understand that. The point is that AK has good fold equity in the original example, and really doesn't even mind a call from QQ or lower. Running into AA or KK there is a cooler. If you run into a donk who will call you with deuces, so be it, it's not a cooler to lose there. It's not about being a few % behind, it's about running into a hand that has you crushed, and when you had ery little/no choice in shoving.
AG, I also understand what you are saying, but a cooler would be more like a made hand getting surprisingly beaten by a better made hand. AK isn't really a made hand, its really the highest ranked unmade hand pre flop, with ery ery large amounts of fold equity. Just becuase someone has fold equity like that does not mean that when they do get called by a dominating hand, they are going to experience a cooler.
I feel that the term cooler is used too loosely, especially in situations like these one where your hand isn't even ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: aliengenius at December 26, 2007, 5:01 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by combuboom
because AK doesn't even have to run into a dominating hand to be in less than good shape whereas KK does. AK can "run into" 99 and be behind. i mean if i make a big move against a tight player and i have Q5, the only hands he calls with which dominate me (we're assuming it's a big enough move that he'd fold AQ) would be QQ-AA. if one of those hands are present and call me, that doesn't make it a cooler imo
I understand that. The point is that AK has good fold equity in the original example, and really doesn't even mind a call from QQ or lower. Running into AA or KK there is a cooler. If you run into a donk who will call you with deuces, so be it, it's not a cooler to lose there. It's not about being a few % behind, it's about running into a hand that has you crushed, and when you had ery little/no choice in shoving.
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| Posted by: combuboom at December 26, 2007, 4:45 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by aliengenius
I don't understand your argument that KK running into AA is a cooler, but AK running into it isn't-- it's only one more hand (KK) that dominates AK, and you are crushing the other big aces. Sure you are racing a lot of other hands, but AK can expect small pairs to fold to his shove in your initial example. Hero is correctly leveraging AK's fold equity preflop, and runs into only one of two hands that has him dominated = cooler.
because AK doesn't even have to run into a dominating hand to be in less than good shape whereas KK does. AK can "run into" 99 and be behind. i mean if i make a big move against a tight player and i have Q5, the only hands he calls with which dominate me (we're assuming it's a big enough move that he'd fold AQ) would be QQ-AA. if one of those hands are present and call me, that doesn't make it a cooler imo
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| Posted by: aliengenius at December 26, 2007, 4:39 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Above situation was a cooler for the AK because of his stack size relative to the blinds/first raise.
On the other hand, here is a donkey (me ) playing AK:
FullTiltPoker Game #4598790593: Cardschat $150 Added Buyin (33935782), Table 1 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:09:42 ET - 2007/12/23
Seat 1: Amador_Ed (4,705)
Seat 2: aliengenius (3,625)
Seat 4: swoop (1,360)
Seat 5: imbiancone (4,235)
Seat 6: njpokerhoney (3,435)
Seat 8: ziggymom (3,260)
Seat 9: landy011350 (1,350)
Amador_Ed posts the small blind of 60
aliengenius posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Ac Kd]
swoop folds
imbiancone raises to 360
njpokerhoney folds
ziggymom folds
landy011350 folds
Amador_Ed folds
aliengenius has 15 seconds left to act
aliengenius raises to 1,000
imbiancone raises to 4,235, and is all in
aliengenius calls 2,625, and is all in
imbiancone shows [Ad As]
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Zorba at December 26, 2007, 4:30 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
I havent heard of that term in poker before, the only cooler reference I know of is when Colonel Klink threatens Colonel Hogan with sending him to the cooler.
Sorry that this has nothing to do with the OP but I could not resist.
I oted royalburrito24.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 4:16 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by combuboom
AK preflop is ace-high. ace-high losing is not a cooler, especially facing a raise, a show of strength, because you're shoving knowing that you're only about 50% against your opponent's calling range
Combu should count as 5 otes, but it does not matter right now. I am dominating in the polls, 2:1.
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| Posted by: combuboom at December 26, 2007, 3:48 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
AK preflop is ace-high. ace-high losing is not a cooler, especially facing a raise, a show of strength, because you're shoving knowing that you're only about 50% against your opponent's calling range
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| Posted by: soccerfreakjj10 at December 26, 2007, 3:38 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
I am by no means an expert on the term "cooler," but I think of it as referring to more of an emotional feeling than actual hands up against each other (I hope that makes sense hard to word.)
i feel a cooler is when you feel ery excited that you have a big hand and suddenly you are completely surprised by somebody turning over a bigger hand.
Now while AK obviously not a huge hand, there is still a huge emotional layover when you realize you are practically drawing dead with it when your opponent turns over AA.
I think that this feeling is a "cooler."
I love these random debates that mean absolutely nothing :P
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| Posted by: arkadiy at December 26, 2007, 2:47 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
I classify that any good hand, that you think is ahead, running into a better unexpected hand is a cooler.
Example:
AK s AA
Pre-flop AK raises to 300
AA raises to 750
AK calls
Flop K79
AK bets 1200
AA raises 3600
AK goes all-in for 5400
AK is now a cooler.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 2:42 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Lo-Dog
I wouldn't classify anything PF as a cooler.
Monster over monter post-flop is what I would call a cooler. A hand you just can't get away from.
KK is a ery hard hand to get away from pre flop. I know I am not folding this hand unless something really tells me my opponent is holding AA.
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| Posted by: Lo-Dog at December 26, 2007, 2:40 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
I wouldn't classify anything PF as a cooler.
Monster over monter post-flop is what I would call a cooler. A hand you just can't get away from.
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| Posted by: kcanuck at December 26, 2007, 2:33 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
My definition of a cooler is playing a hand that is ahead of almost everything against someone that has that unlikely hand that beats you.
Set under set, Ace flush under str8 flush and your example come to mind.
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| Posted by: royalburrito24 at December 26, 2007, 2:18 am | | Topic: Cooler: Definition? Forum: Card Chat |
iwouldprefernotto and myself had a recent instant messenger conversation regarding the definition of a cooler.
This whole conversation began when we witnessed this hand at his tournament table:
Full Tilt Poker Game #4624138369: $26 Token Frenzy (34477654), Table 3 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:18:08 ET - 2007/12/25
Seat 1: davedub21 (3,565)
Seat 2: Lnr Rigbee (3,865)
Seat 3: NYPokerGod10 (7,840)
Seat 4: JCROBERTS (1,320)
Seat 5: Hurtner (4,595)
Seat 6: Sara_Pezzini (2,660)
Seat 8: soccerfreakjj10 (5,985)
Seat 9: bigdog80112 (3,335)
soccerfreakjj10 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
bigdog80112 folds
davedub21 folds
Lnr Rigbee has 15 seconds left to act
Lnr Rigbee raises to 240
NYPokerGod10 folds
JCROBERTS raises to 1,320, and is all in
Hurtner folds
Sara_Pezzini folds
soccerfreakjj10 folds
Lnr Rigbee calls 1,080
JCROBERTS shows [Kh Ac]
... | | Read Entire Entry |
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