| Posted by: Suited Frenzy at March 10, 2007, 5:04 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
[quote=Beriac;415433]It's true that depending on how exactly you thought a site was rigged, you might still play there, but at the ery least it'd give you pause I think.
And yeah, for the tiny sites that might not be around tomorrow, who knows what they're up to...[/quote]
I agree here ^^^^^^^^. The rest of them i have to disagree. GL on the tbls.
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| Posted by: shinedown.45 at March 10, 2007, 5:01 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
This is a remark made for dans post: Not even wasting my time reading this, keep your comments to yourself, all your doing here is trying to give pokerstars a bad name because your probably a poor poker player that has suffered a few badbeats there, probably b/c of your own bad play, sorry to be so harsh, but pokerstars is a great site and there is nothing you can say that will change my mind about it,.
until I see an OFFICIAL document that any poker site is rigged I wont believe the word of anyone.
I have a FRIEND that works for a reputable beer company and he says there are a few employees who actually urinate in every 5th bottle
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| Posted by: Dan1888 at March 10, 2007, 4:50 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
I know a programmer who helped create the Poker Stars shuffle.According to him it is rigged as its a necessary evil from a business standpoint. Though not rigged for a specific individual the hands are rigged in a number of ways.First and foremost,80% of players on poker stars are bad poker players,the kind that call big bets on low percentage hands,or will even raise themselves on a bad hand.If it fell according to normal percentages the poker sharks would drain such players and drain them real quick.If a bad player was contstantly losing his butt he would get frustrated and not come back.If the 80% of bad players all left,so goes 80% of the sites profits with them.By rigging it to dish alot of bad river beats it gives bad players who should have folded out a more even playing field with the sharks who would have taken all their cash.Its not just about bad beats either.Your chip count matters especially in tournies.In a tourney if you have the highest stack in the hand being played its programmed for t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: MrSticker at July 12, 2006, 11:20 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by LetsGetItOn
heh, I honestly think Online blackjack is rigged. Never seen so many dealer 6's turn into 21's. Live blackjack is legit however.
The problem with online blackjack (or even casino blackjack machines) is that they shuffle after every deal. You can't get a count or even a sense of what's left in the deck. Might as well play "War".
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| Posted by: Beriac at July 12, 2006, 10:59 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Not to beat a dead horse, but I have the same opinion about blackjack as holdem. It's a game where odds favour the house (obviously), so the poker sites are already taking your money in the long run if you play a lot of it. I'm not ready to believe they're going to commit criminal acts and put that "license to print money" at risk until I see some real evidence...
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| Posted by: potheads1968 at July 11, 2006, 8:01 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
i agree with lightning 36 - just like betting on sports, if it was rigged than all of the players, coachs ect. would have to be in on it. do you really think all of those people would keep it secret? eventually the whole world would no and there woud be no mre!
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| Posted by: Welly at July 11, 2006, 2:25 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Good Post Beriac. You have done a good job investigating.
I for one certainly agree that major sites are 100% legit.
On the Blackjack line I did have a funny encounter :-
Some promotional rubbish flashed up one day and I thought i'd take a quick look. A 'play for fun' screen allowed me to win ALL (every single one!) of about 20 hands. I was just laughing as I was playing while a large button flashed 'NOW PLAY FOR REAL'.
Beware of the small rogue sites I guess is the blackjack lesson there.
Welly
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| Posted by: gord962 at July 11, 2006, 4:42 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
And explain how black jack is rigged? Why don't you take the lead of Bariac and prove your theory with some actual facts or stats? And why would you think live blackjack is rigged? How exactly would they do that?
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| Posted by: potheads1968 at July 10, 2006, 11:17 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
I really dont think online poker is rigged,but however i dont like the odds at blackjack.The dealer always seems to get a face card.Or if you take a hit you bust but if you stand the dealer ends up with 21.I dont know,what i do know is id rather play texas holdem.
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| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 9:02 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Appreciate the +rep, folks!!
Anyway, to your point Combuboom, sure that it's not your hands would be a more reliable source of observation. But though you admit that sample size is an issue, I don't think you (or anyone, really) understands just how much sample size matters.
Every time something weird happens in an online poker match (quads 3 hands in a row, being dealt the same cards 3 times in succession, river suckout 3 times in a row, etc), it doesn't prove anything. All it shows is that either an extreme outcome occurred or the site is somehow rigged. But to eliminate the first possibility in favour of the second requires a massive amount of data, not just to "prove" it to the rest of us but frankly to justify the accusations being lobbed around in the first place.
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| Posted by: combuboom at July 10, 2006, 8:25 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
I agree with you, Beriac, that many of these accusations come from players on tilt as well as players who underestimate the probability of a bad beat. Those were the reasons I personally tried to establish some sort of credibility in that the ast majority of these beats did not even involve me, but rather I observed them. I think this helps keep emotions out of it. Of course, I know I can't establish much credibility without numbers and only supplying general observations, but I wanted to make clear that I don't think it's an error in perception on my part. Without a large enough sample of hands, there's always a chance that it's just been a really bizarre, statistically improbable run of hands that would eventually even out.
I'd actually like to purely observe freerolls at Dream Poker and record every hand in which a player is all-in (lol, we know how easy that will be in a freeroll), record the hole cards, percentage to win pre-flop, and how often the river alters the outcome, make kind of a ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 7:55 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Point well taken, Combuboom, it was a silly line of rebuttal on my part.
I simply continue to think that the basis for the argument in favour of suspected rigging is pretty weak.
Edit: I'd add that since these accusations often come from players "on tilt", that further substracts from the overall credence. Finally, I think people just underestimate the probability of a bad beat. Even 23o is going to beat AA more than once if you hold AA 10 times -- and that's 23o.
Separate rant: I find a lot of folks talk about their successes/failures like every single time they lose a hand it's a bad beat. There's just a cognitive dissonance going on here where some folks don't take responsibility for a lost hand or tourney or session.
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| Posted by: poettic1 at July 10, 2006, 7:52 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
i've acually seen some of the proxie code for some of the shufflers online and there is no way at all it is rigged. although sometimes i want to take what i've seen and throw it out the window, due to the beats i've gotten and the beats i've put on ppl. but the truth is most sites have created a ertual deck and it has the same probability of a live deck shufled perfectly 6 times. you just play more hands online so the bad beats come more often
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| Posted by: combuboom at July 10, 2006, 7:35 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Beriac
So if your data comes from freerolls at Dreams, my question to you is -- why would they rig their freerolls?
Well I would assume that *if* it was actually rigged (gigantic "if") they would use the exact same shuffling and dealing system for freerolls that they would for any cash game. I don't see why they'd bother to create an entirely different one for each. The players are either going to be okay with it and play there, or think it's so screwed up that they don't want to. What would be the real point of changing the software for the freerolls? But then again, I've never been in charge of rigging poker software before, so who knows.
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| Posted by: buckster436 at July 10, 2006, 2:53 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Rob`s rite, they have NOTHING to gain and LOTS to lose if they rigged the sites,, the sites make money no matter what happens at the tables,, i have always believed they are NOT RIGGED, if they were and it got out they would be done, out of business>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buck
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| Posted by: robwhufc at July 10, 2006, 2:10 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by LetsGetItOn
An even better question, why rig any games ?
Playing Devil's Advocate...
You own a poker site - let's call it Shitean.
Your players are predominately lured in by the plethora of freerolls.
Therefore - your players are predominately below average when they migrate to pay games.
Which means - Poker sharks are attracted to feast on the fish.
The fish get destroyed and stop playing pay games.
The sharks go elsewhere when their food supply dries up.
BUT..........
If you skew the cards to benefit short stacked players......
Poor players will stick around longer, because they will lose money slower and be more likely to re-deposit.
Poker sharks will either despair of bad beats and leave (prolonging the lifespan of the fish) or will stick it out and win less.
As I said, Devil's Advocate, but they haven't got nothing to gain from rigging games in my ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: LetsGetItOn at July 10, 2006, 12:48 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Beriac
So if your data comes from freerolls at Dreams, my question to you is -- why would they rig their freerolls?
An even better question, why rig any games ? And no, they don't have employees playing just to get them money by rigging their hands, it happens to many people on the good and bad side. I've played for about a year nearly every day for 3 hours minimum and to be honest not that much crazy stuff happens.
I've seen quads, seen a community card dealt up in a stud game. The bulk of complaints is from people who went bust playing at the $1/$2 game with their $25 bankroll. The argument about online cardrooms being rigged needs to stop, i've heard maybe 1 or 2 instances where it was legit complaint I believe for propoker.com where bots for the poker site are rumored to be playing. For the rest of the people who say J0kerstarz is ri663d need to learn that shit happens, get over it.
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| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 12:25 pm | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by combuboom
I don't like to accuse poker sites of being rigged, but I must say the dealing and action at Dream Poker is absolutely the most bizarre that I've ever seen on any poker site. I've played many freerolls there.
Now, I can't speak for Dream Poker. Never played there. And it would be one thing if a lot of the accuastions focused on one site, but I also see people go "I've played a lot of places and Poker Stars is definitely the worst for bad beats on the river", or "I've played a lot of places and Titan is definitely the worst for bad beats on the river", etc. There is no consensus even among the skeptics.
My issue here, combuboom, is that though I respect your opinion I think you might be doing something called 'data mining'. To statisticians, data mining is the result of looking at lots and lots of data and finding strange patterns and drawing conclusions without having sufficient fundamental reason.
Here... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 11:45 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by Alon Ipser
Beriac, are you one of those people hired by the by the online poker sites to join forums and spread propaganda about their sites being completely honest?
Who told you that?!? Damn, now my cover is blown.
In all seriousness, I'm not "on the same side" as the poker sites, but I find the number of people who complain loudly that poker is rigged without thinking it through or having an intelligent discussion about it kind of irks me.
Note: it's not the complaining or the suggestion of rigging that bugs me, but the lack of thought that goes into it.
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| Posted by: combuboom at July 10, 2006, 9:43 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Actually... does Dream Poker count as a major site? I know it's not one of the top dogs, but I have no idea how they do financially. I guess they would count as a smaller site, so I guess I actually do have a contention with one.
I don't like to accuse poker sites of being rigged, but I must say the dealing and action at Dream Poker is absolutely the most bizarre that I've ever seen on any poker site. I've played many freerolls there. Okay, yes, I know they are freerolls. This ensures there will be a number of bad beats. But I'm not talking about there being many bad beats. I'm talking about there being a startlingly high PERCENTAGE of bad beats in all-in situations. I've played numerous freerolls at Absolute Poker, PokerStars, and Titan. I have no agenda to target Dream Poker, nor have I been so unlucky at Dream Poker that I have something against the sites. In fact, tons of the bad beats have been in my favor. Most of the ones I've taken note of, though, haven't even involved me. So I think I... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 1:48 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by lightning36
History is full of cheats who are willing to risk all for extra gain, be it money, power, sex, etc. Just in recent memory in the US, these come to mind:
1) Enron
2) Richard Nixon
3) Bill Clinton
4) Major League Baseball Players
5) George Ryan, former Governor of Illinois
6) Track and Field athletes, heck almost any athletes
7) Tobacco companies
You make a fair point here, with Enron especially being the one that sticks in my mind. But still, in each of these cases, the "reveal" that the crimes were being committed was a surprise. But in this case, the suspicion that online poker is rigged is an up-front concern, leading to all of this auditing and checking. It's the lack of auditing in so many of the above cases that made them possible.
(In the case of big tobacco specifically, I believe your example is flawed, as their crimes are exactly what permitted their profits.)
Is it pos... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 1:43 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
I agree that some kind of error is more likely than rigging, but even a serious error sounds unlikely to me. I've seen 2 quads in an SNG, but I've never seen 4 -- I doubt most people have. If I'm right in that assertion, then it is rare, as it should be.
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| Posted by: lightning36 at July 10, 2006, 1:42 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote:
Logic and reason
This is my own opinion: rigging a poker site would be like a professional athlete stealing sporting goods from his or her team -- the risk of losing something good would dramatically outweight the gains from cheating. I'm trained in game theory, and I can tell you that experts in the field would suggest that this is ludicrous (hip hop afficionados might suggest that it is instead ludacris).
Thus, I personally believe that it is unlikely that major sites are in any way rigged. I know if I were running one, and I do have a business background, there is no way I would risk the mint that online poker sites make in rake just to add a few extra bucks.
History is full of cheats who are willing to risk all for extra gain, be it money, power, sex, etc. Just in recent memory in the US, these come to mind:
1) Enron
2) Richard Nixon
3) Bill Clinton
4) Major League Baseball Players
5) George Ryan, former Governor o... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: smd173 at July 10, 2006, 1:40 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Well your conclusions are solid.
But it is odd that you'll be sitting at a SNG and see 4 Quads in one game. Statistically that shouldn't happen. And yeah I know PokerStars is running 5 billion hands at a time and blah blah blah, the world balances out.
I don't think they are rigged, I think the RNG is flawed in some way. Maybe in a way that those two independent companies weren't able to properly test. I think that is more likely than anything else.
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| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 1:35 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
It's true that depending on how exactly you thought a site was rigged, you might still play there, but at the ery least it'd give you pause I think.
And yeah, for the tiny sites that might not be around tomorrow, who knows what they're up to...
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| Posted by: combuboom at July 10, 2006, 1:31 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Quote: Originally Posted by shortstacked
FIRST if you think online poker is rigged then dont play it
Why? Because you said so? Someone could think online poker is rigged but still profit off of it. If they profit, they're unlikely to quit playing it, even if they think the action is somehow rigged. (Note: I don't have any strong conviction towards or against online poker being rigged, personally, but I feel this point should be made).
Anyway, this is a good post. Of course it still leaves the argument many make about the lesser known poker sites that aren't "raking it in" yet, and the motive they would have to rig their action. I've pretty much only played at the major sites though, so I have no contention against any particular smaller site.
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| Posted by: shortstacked at July 10, 2006, 1:18 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
ok first im not going to read all that,as for it to be rigged i dont beleave it is, for me im sick of seeing this posts on the forums
FIRST if you think online poker is rigged then dont play it
try your hand of line im sure you will see the same things
I play alot online as well as off line and i take bad to super bad beats, I make more money in a year online then I do off line
sorry I hate these posts
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| Posted by: Beriac at July 10, 2006, 1:09 am | | Topic: Is online poker rigged??? An investigation! Forum: Card Chat |
Intro
So I've seen post after post after post either directly accusing or indirectly insinuating that online poker is rigged. Though the complaints more often than not come from folks who are frustrated from bad beats, the most common theory is that the poker sites so this to encourage action and thus increase the rake at their tables. I think if we polled the regulars here at Cardschat, I bet the ote would slant in favour of "not rigged". Still, despite the fact that accusations of rigging really don't make a ton of sense coming from current players (goodness, why continue to play?), I thought it would be worth investigating.
So here goes nothing...
Logic and reason
This is my own opinion: rigging a poker site would be like a professional athlete stealing sporting goods from his or her team -- the risk of losing something good would dramatically outweight the gains from cheating. I'm trained in game theory, and I can tell you that experts in the field would... | | Read Entire Entry |
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