| Posted by: Casinomeister at August 2, 2006, 3:43 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by kengam
I wonder how business is at English Harbour. Do you think they lost as much money as they scammed?
It had nothing to do with a scam, just a poorly handled situation. Good to see you're back in action.
Thread upgraded to closed. 'nough has been said about this issue.
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| Posted by: hippo925 at June 30, 2006, 4:08 am | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
im fairly new to all this, but i did read up on this thread (painful flashbacks of cramming during college) and it seems to me that everyone (including Spearmaster and casinomeister ) share the common concern for safe, fair, reliable, and customer oriented online gaming. I think everyone had a right to want to know the details and get to the bottom of what happened.
The most obvious thing to me is that, at the least, this casino group did not handle the situation ery well from the beginning. From this fact alone, i think the EH group will face consequences (i would never play there and would recommend others not to as well.) After reading everything, i still have the strong impression something fishy was going on, but casinomeister can't go on just feelings or impressions, no matter how strong. Blacklisting a casino is serious here since i think it's the most popular forum.
But i was a little suprised that people were so upset that casinomeister and spearmaster tried to keep an ope... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Casinomeister at June 29, 2006, 5:11 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by soflat
Did the Wizard of Odds quit or did EH fire him?
It's not a matter of quitting - it's a matter of chosing not to provide a service anymore. He's doing other things at the moment. Why don't you ask him instead of asking me?
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 28, 2006, 11:03 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Thanks, Bryan That's exactly the sort of statement this situation's been crying out for.
Quote:
1. Vegas Technology never followed up on this. Players have no assurance that this will never ever happen again, and this incident has damaged player trust since all they can do is speculate on what really happened.
Exactly - it could also be added that we have no assurance the same thing didn't also happen in the past.
Quote:
They relied on me, Ted Loh, and whomever to be the bearers of their message. This is not our job. There has been nothing but speculation concerning this whole episode and it was unfair to allow people like myself, Ted Loh, Michael Shackelford, and anyone else for that matter, to take the heat for their screw-up and explanations.
Spot on again.
Quote:
3. Their auditing service, albeit a good one, audits the gameplay weeks after the play has occurred. This flaw was uploaded and was dete... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: henryVIII at June 28, 2006, 9:59 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Intersting reading and Id need to reflect on it personally.
However, can you clarify one thing?
With regard to their initial statement you say "Unfortunately, they based this by looking at the wrong files."
Its the first time I have heard this. I dont think this has ever been made public knowledge before.
Which files did they look at?
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| Posted by: henryVIII at June 28, 2006, 8:37 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
I think Michael shacklefords claim to "audit" casinos is flawed from the outset.
As a qualified accountant I do know that an audit does not involve simply looking at results (the equivalent of just counting the cash in a till in a shop). You need to examine the systems for weaknesses (which in the shop example, would be stock control procedures, recording of creditors and debtors consistently, etc).
Without checking the systmes and controls procedures it is the equivalent of a fire department giving a certificate for fire safety based on the fact they havent seen any fires in the recent past.
It can often take a fire to expose all the weaknesses and lopholes that have existed all along. (in this case the casino being caught redhanded).
I cant comment on him personally and perhaps he made it clear that he was just checking percentages or whatever it was he did. I dont know. But he clearly did not do sufficient systems or control checks.
How... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Linus at June 28, 2006, 5:43 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Scooter7
It's nice to have an arbitrator to settle disputes, but the bigger long-term concern isn't separating the trustworthy from the 'not', it's having the clout to put the 'not trustworthy' casinos right out of business.
The only real power consumers have over casinos lies in deciding which casinos deserve our business, and our deposits, and which do not.
Ultimately we have to accept the responsibility of educating ourselves, and each other, about which casinos are trustworthy.
Until or unless we do, casinos will not have an economic incentive to respect the rights of players.
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| Posted by: soflat at June 28, 2006, 4:34 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Mr Shackleford said he was auditing game fairness right up to the unfair double up incident. If he quit recently, that is kind of unfortunate, but the seal really means nothing anyways if he is not going to thoroughly check game fairness by going back thru the logs.
From the Wizard of Odds site:
Quote:
As a professional mathematician, one of the services I provide is evaluation of the logs of online casinos to ensure fair play, though I stopped taking new clients for this service a few years ago. One of my existing clients is Odds On, which provides the software for English Harbour casino among others.
He went on to say:
Quote:
Although both English Harbor and myself believe that April 13 to May 2 was the only period affected we will be scrutinizing earlier logs to make sure, and will be monitoring future play closely.
If he is not going to check earlier logs, then the seal means nothing. It is just something EH is bu... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: kengam at June 28, 2006, 4:16 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
His meaningless seal is still posted on the site. Only when you click on it do you see this:
This casino has been audited for return percentage and fairness by an independent third party gaming expert, Mr. Michael Shackleford A.S.A., who's Gaming Audit practice was located in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Michael has decided to leave the auditing practice. The seal attests to his continuous certification over a four-year period. We believe strongly in fair gaming and are looking into other auditing services as an independent overseer of our casinos. Meanwhile Michael has agreed to let us use his seal to attest to our fairness during his tenure until a suitable replacement can be found.
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| Posted by: Casinomeister at June 28, 2006, 3:57 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by kengam
I appreciate your attempt to get me back in the positive as far as R-points. The rating points system here is ery biased though, so I do not take it seriously. The 2 people who have disagreed with me can easily make or break anyone's reputation point status. That has already been the case and it has happened to others in the past. Our disagreement should have no impact on reputation whatsoever. .
It ain't biased in the least. It's there for anyone in the forum to use. Some people use it - some don't bother. There are quite a few people who have more rep power than I do. You had some people who agreed with you who have more rep power than me. Quit posting erroneous crap.
Quote: Originally Posted by kengam
You are giving the Wizard way to much credit in this case. His site has been ery useful to many over the years, but he has neglected to share the details of any audits. He has been issuing an audit seal which is not... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: kengam at June 28, 2006, 2:48 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Daffy
************************************************** *****
For this post...you are no longer in the negative...pointwise...
I've read most of this "bible"...and I have questions...
Kengam would like EH double-up feature investigated back to circa1999 so he and his bonus buds might recoup some losses...is that correct???
If so...is that for every kind of VP double-up or did ya'll keep losing and losing and losing to one game in particular???
The Wizard is truly the WIZARD...with all the new software and updates that has been introduced over the years...I'm wondering how many program errors he has detected??? He's a ery smart guy...must be more than a few. Surely, all the players affected those other times were justly compensated just like this time...right???
the dUck
I appreciate your attempt to get me back in the positive as far as R-points. The rating points syste... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Daffy at June 28, 2006, 7:11 am | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by kengam
I apologize to all the members of this forum for getting out of hand with some of these posts. I have issues with English Harbour/Odds ON and had been skeptical about their integrity after losing a lot of dough playing ideo poker and using the double up feature over the past few years. When my attention was first brought to this thread I was sure that the same was happening to TheLawnet as happened to me and my colleagues. This is what caused me to be angry and post with haste. I am sure that a full audit into this double up game over the past few years would reveal that the game was gaffed early on.
We played the double up extensively as a group and surely our stats alone would put a dent in the overall numbers at this game even if it wasn't happening to everyone. My group concluded that they had caught on to the practice of using double up for advantaged play. We thought it was likely that advantaged gamblers were being targeted directly an... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at June 28, 2006, 7:10 am | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Whilst I agree that the power of concerted action through the fora is not easily ignored by operators, it is imo probably not sufficiently potent to put the medium to large guys "out of business." It can certainly make life less comfortable for them as they scramble around trying to top up with new blood in the shape of newbies coming online.
The *referee* aspect oiced by Linus is important, too. That is especially the case when emotive issues are under scrutiny, because an arbitrator with "the right stuff" will show a preparedness to iew all sides of the problem no matter how personally unpopular that may make him or her.
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| Posted by: Scooter7 at June 28, 2006, 1:28 am | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
What many players would like to see, in my iew, and in the absence of any regulatory authority, is a kind of "referee," who can tell them which casinos are trustworthy, and which are not, and whose word carries weight.
It's nice to have an arbitrator to settle disputes, but the bigger long-term concern isn't separating the trustworthy from the 'not', it's having the clout to put the 'not trustworthy' casinos right out of business.
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| Posted by: Linus at June 28, 2006, 12:48 am | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
Slotster, have no fear - I take R-points seriously and have only used mine negatively once as opposed to positively three or four times! But I have been tempted on occasion LOL!
This EH issue has certainly polarised opinions and given rise to some emotional reactions here, but to my mind there have been many accusations and not a little negative speculation - mostly without the production of supporting evidence with which Spear or the Meister could work.
If you think the issue is whether EH did it on purpose or not, there's really ery little in the way of evidence anybody here could possibly produce. Absent subpoena powers, the only people who will ever know - for sure - what happened over at EH are the people at EH themselves.
Quote:
I have to say, one of the most impressive summaries of the situation is imo TheBloke's recent post, which dealt with the facts that are known and/or admitted.
Hav... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Scooter7 at June 28, 2006, 12:35 am | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by suzecat
IMO the effect of these events on EH's bottom line (which history suggests will not be made public) is a good result and one that is satisfactory. I can feel the dissent as I type and since we can't cyber draw/quarter or tar/feather, we are left to ote for/against EH with our feet -- same as any other software developer/provider.
Exactly!
I don't think we're likely to see any additional evidence or statements on this subject. Calling for answers and documents isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
If you think that EH are unworthy of future business (I don't disagree), bump this post once every few days as negative advertising, put a notice on your website, anti-publicize them as it were. This thread alone has over 34,000 iews-that's more than the 'Screenshots That Suck' thread!
If the consumers can cause the equivalent of economic sanctions for misbehaviour, there's a lot less misbehavin' gonna happen
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: henryVIII at June 27, 2006, 11:23 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
This EH issue has certainly polarised opinions and given rise to some emotional reactions here, but to my mind there have been many accusations and not a little negative speculation - mostly without the production of supporting evidence with which Spear or the Meister could work.
.
Would, for example, EH releasing past game logs help here.
Its pretty hard to prove anything when the accused witholds the "evidence".
Why would they want to not allow anyone to see past game results?
If they were innocent of any wrondoing, well, if it was my reputation on the line I would be bending over backwards. Not least out of respect for the player.
Unless i had a problem.
Hmmm ...
That said, some good points there jetset.
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| Posted by: jetset at June 27, 2006, 11:06 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Slotster, have no fear - I take R-points seriously and have only used mine negatively once as opposed to positively three or four times! But I have been tempted on occasion LOL!
This EH issue has certainly polarised opinions and given rise to some emotional reactions here, but to my mind there have been many accusations and not a little negative speculation - mostly without the production of supporting evidence with which Spear or the Meister could work.
I have to say, one of the most impressive summaries of the situation is imo TheBloke's recent post, which dealt with the facts that are known and/or admitted.
Having known Spear for some time, I personally respect his expertise and integrity and have no reason to doubt that his assessment of the incident is correct, but I think we are all agreed that EH management could have handled this in a more professional manner. I have to say, too that I am personally disappointed in The Wizard's apparent withdrawal from the issue ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: henryVIII at June 27, 2006, 10:35 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by suzecat
IMO the effect of these events on EH's bottom line (which history suggests will not be made public) is a good result and one that is satisfactory. I can feel the dissent as I type and since we can't cyber draw/quarter or tar/feather, we are left to ote for/against EH with our feet -- same as any other software developer/provider.
I hope they didn't use the same auditors to 'publish' their bottom line that established there was no problem weeks after there most certainly was.
Sorry, I may have misunderstood you ... its late here ... apolgies if I did.
But, as i say, a casino caught with cheating software (on which we all agree surely) and who issues false audit claims (again, we all agree on that) rolls on .....
.
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| Posted by: suzecat at June 27, 2006, 10:21 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by henryVIII
Anyway, meanwhile, a casino with cheating software and false audit claims continues to roll on ...
IMO the effect of these events on EH's bottom line (which history suggests will not be made public) is a good result and one that is satisfactory. I can feel the dissent as I type and since we can't cyber draw/quarter or tar/feather, we are left to ote for/against EH with our feet -- same as any other software developer/provider.
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| Posted by: Casinomeister at June 27, 2006, 9:54 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
Kengam - I looked up "Online Player's Association." It looked like any other banner farm, to me. Are you saying they were legit at one time?
Some threads/links to check out:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...sociation.html
http://casinomeister.com/newsletter/....html#article2
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| Posted by: Linus at June 27, 2006, 9:41 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Bloke - nice post, sir. You said it better than I could.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
CM - I do not believe that they deliberately cheated, and I still think they should be rogued:Their quality control is non-existant or so poor that it allowed unfinished, untested and faulty code to make it to their production system
This code persisted for two weeks without being picked up
Their initial statement on the matter was patently false
They have refused to respond to numerous requests from numerous people (not just the zealots like kengam) to make further comment and/or release further logs
I believe that other groups have been rogued for less - for example Grand Prive. I would play at Grand Prive 1000 times over before I played here again. I simply cannot conceive of such dire technical processes being allowed at a major casino group. I worked in both coding and quality assurance for some years, and a cock-up of this magnitude would have had ast repe... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: kengam at June 27, 2006, 8:38 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Casinomeister
I understand your frustration with the previous years, but this wasn't what the issue at hand was. We were looking at specifically what had happened at the beginning of this thread.
I think it is ery much related to the issue at the beginning of this thread. I do not see how anyone can think it isn't relevant. In order to prove it was an honest mistake EH first must prove that it only happened in April like they said. How are we to know that this honest mistake didn't occur in the past? Why would you take their word for it? If we took their original word then the bug still would be uindiscovered.
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| Posted by: mitch at June 27, 2006, 8:28 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by kengam
As far as reputation points, I do not care that I am in the negative. Spear and Bryan can take away 15 points each time as they have. I tend to think that only looks worse for them. We do not have this power.
Administrators and moderators (Simmo!, Spearmaster, Vortran, and Casinomeister) can give or take away 15 points.
Your wrong here Kengam, a lot of members do have this power and to a much greater extent than Spear, Meister et al.
Better not get on the wrong side of Jetset for instance -58 if you do.
Mitch
(EDIT.......Just seen that Bryan posted above whilst I was writing this.)
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| Posted by: Casinomeister at June 27, 2006, 8:24 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by kengam
I apologize to all the members of this forum for getting out of hand with some of these posts. I have issues with English Harbour/Odds ON and had been skeptical about their integrity after losing a lot of dough playing ideo poker and using the double up feature over the past few years. When my attention was first brought to this thread I was sure that the same was happening to TheLawnet as happened to me and my colleagues. This is what caused me to be angry and post with haste. I am sure that a full audit into this double up game over the past few years would reveal that the game was gaffed early on.
We played the double up extensively as a group and surely our stats alone would put a dent in the overall numbers at this game even if it wasn't happening to everyone. My group concluded that they had caught on to the practice of using double up for advantaged play. We thought it was likely that advantaged gamblers were being targeted directly an... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Casinomeister at June 27, 2006, 8:13 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by henryVIII
Oh, and guess what ... I have recieved negative rep points from CM and spearmaster. The only two people who have given me negative points (thank you to others for the positive ones). Like I care but ... cant anyone state an opinion which is their own not the site's owner?...
The comment that I gave you neg points for was in the Fortune Lounge thread. I felt it was out of line - it had nothing to do with this one. Spearmaster is not the site owner by the way.
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| Posted by: kengam at June 27, 2006, 8:13 pm | | Topic: Mathematical Proof that English Harbour is cheating Forum: Casino Meister |
I apologize to all the members of this forum for getting out of hand with some of these posts. I have issues with English Harbour/Odds ON and had been skeptical about their integrity after losing a lot of dough playing ideo poker and using the double up feature over the past few years. When my attention was first brought to this thread I was sure that the same was happening to TheLawnet as happened to me and my colleagues. This is what caused me to be angry and post with haste. I am sure that a full audit into this double up game over the past few years would reveal that the game was gaffed early on.
We played the double up extensively as a group and surely our stats alone would put a dent in the overall numbers at this game even if it wasn't happening to everyone. My group concluded that they had caught on to the practice of using double up for advantaged play. We thought it was likely that advantaged gamblers were being targeted directly and a fix was placed into the double up game. All our... | | Read Entire Entry |
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