| Posted by: Zoozie at August 13, 2006, 8:36 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
When you double at MG slots you can only double 5 times. Then you get the message: "Limit reached". So I suspected it was the samefor MG VP, but I have never doubled that much in VP to get that far. (And I have not doubled at all for the last year...)
Zoozie
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| Posted by: liquuid_fusion at August 12, 2006, 11:43 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by HateMG
I remember a while ago somebody posted in this forum some VP screens with up to 9-10 winning doubles in a row off of a single win. I don't remember exactly if it was RTG or Playtech but it was definately not MG. So could it be MG designed it's VP double feature in such way just to prevent this from happenning? What if they have some counter that allows only 4-5 max. Then it makes a huge difference and gives you an explanation why they implemented such shortcut. Of course I don't have any proof. It just a speculation on my part but on another hand noone can prove that this theory can't be true.
Doubtful, i've seen a screenshot posted of 9 consecutive winning doubles at MG.
I'm too much of a wimp to double that much, however!
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| Posted by: jpsartre at August 12, 2006, 11:37 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by HateMG
What if they have some counter that allows only 4-5 max. Then it makes a huge difference and gives you an explanation why they implemented such shortcut. Of course I don't have any proof. It just a speculation on my part but on another hand noone can prove that this theory can't be true.
The post above made me think of quote from The Simpsons:
"That's okay, your tears say more than real evidence ever could!"
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| Posted by: Zoozie at August 11, 2006, 11:15 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by nafanny29
We still dont even know if it is actually based on a deck of cards or not.
Agree! But I do believe it is, since the alternative is much more complex to
set up. The suggested method that the server autopick a card is the most logical one. But I definately still strongly disapprove of this.
Zoozie
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| Posted by: nafanny29 at August 11, 2006, 10:48 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by sirius
It is a bit worrying, though, because this kind of predetermining can make it easier for the casinos to cheat if they were inclined to do so. I mean the casinos could easily make the cards totally random, but not pick the player's card randomly. It would be harder to detect and easier to rig than if the players actually had a real choice and the cards were non-random.
I agree totally, and thats one of the reasons that this "shortcut" is not going down too well with many of us. We still dont even know if it is actually based on a deck of cards or not.
And I want to know what other "shortcuts" are lurking in the MG software. There could be loads for all we know.
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| Posted by: sirius at August 11, 2006, 7:48 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by happygobrokey
i don't play VP, does the player ever match the dealer?? i'm guessing not.
The cards will tie at times, as a full deck of cards is used. As people have mentioned, this does seem a bit strange but the choice of which card to choose is of no bearing really. The casino should still pick the cards in the same way with the normal RNG. The computer effectively just picks the next card instead and it is just as good as any choice the player would make. There is no difference at all to the odds and it was probably done so that it requires less contact with the server.
Both methods are arguably the same because the cards the player can choose are totally unknown and not sent by the server at all before the choice is made, as it would be easily hackable. Even for other casinos, how do you know that the server doesn't create the random cards after the player chooses? In other words, the player might not really be choosing existing cards... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: happygobrokey at August 11, 2006, 6:43 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
the three cards not chosen (whether you or the computer chooses it) have no bearing on the game. instead of thinking "if only i'd clicked on that ace instead of this lousy 4" think "if only that ace was next in the randomly shuffled deck instead of this lousy 4".
would it be better if the software determined the outcome and made the cards reflect a no-win or always-win situation, i.e. you click double, software chooses player lose, software gives dealer a 9 and deals out 8,7,5,2 as the four next cards from which you choose? then it's not deceptive, but it does rig the cards, but it's still the same game...
what if someone offered you to play a coin flip, but insisted it be played as a 50/50 game where she writes A or B on a piece of paper and reveals it after you guess? it changes the parameters of the game but retains the same probability. now change the game to writing a number 1-10 and the player guessing odd or even, still fair right? now say the person stag... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Mousey at August 10, 2006, 11:38 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Allow me one last swing at the expiring equine:
I'll accept the fact that this 'quickie' ersion of VP Double Up provides no added house edge and the end results (in the long term) are essentially the same. However, I still contend that, as a player, what I want to see on my computer screen is a close approximation of what is actually happening in my card game. (Don't say, well, it could show you screen after screen of 01s and 00. You know what I mean. ) If I am not choosing between 4 'cards' then don't show me 4 cards. Simple. This is not slots we're talking about.
I'd still like more info on B&M VP games. Having a difficult time running down specific info on the double up feature.
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at August 10, 2006, 10:27 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jsp377
He already said that it was probably a stupid, but well-intentioned, idea to do this.
I agree it's stupid, but we've no idea if it was well-intentioned. I can imagine the programmers thinking up this clever idea and having a quick laugh at the suckers who'll torment themselves selecting a card while not realising it makes no difference.
Quote: Originally Posted by jsp377
And while I understand how people can feel deceived, it's no different than using an inverse distribution function to determine the result of a slot spin, or making three rights instead of a left. They're just different paths to the same result.
It is different, though. The player has no influence on most slots after clicking on "spin". There should be an influence over doubling when you select a card.
Quote: Originally Posted by jsp377
And, let's not kid ourselves here, we've already taken a big step from classic... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jsp377 at August 10, 2006, 8:29 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
He already said that it was probably a stupid, but well-intentioned, idea to do this. And while I understand how people can feel deceived, it's no different than using an inverse distribution function to determine the result of a slot spin, or making three rights instead of a left. They're just different paths to the same result.
And, let's not kid ourselves here, we've already taken a big step from classical gambling by using RNGs to simulate cards. Is what MG has done really so much further a step as to infuriate us like this?
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| Posted by: henryVIII at August 10, 2006, 2:56 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
Deferring to you? This is a joke I take it?
Well, not in relation to the fact that you can't understand that some people find what they are doing to be deceitful, suspicious, stupid or just 'not a good thing'.
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| Posted by: TheBloke at August 10, 2006, 12:20 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by henryVIII
OK, if you are therefore deferring to me then I can only re-state that at the ery least they have delivering a game different to what they say they are.
That is NOT a good thing BTW.
Deferring to you? This is a joke I take it?
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| Posted by: tennis_balls at August 9, 2006, 11:27 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
while i don't think it's rigged, i do agree that it's a crock of shite.
a possible solution would be to have the player check a box that he has a high-speed connection and then only offer this illusion to the dial-up customers
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| Posted by: henryVIII at August 9, 2006, 10:53 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
If I know nothing on a subject I generally defer to those who do.
OK, if you are therefore deferring to me then I can only re-state that at the ery least they have delivering a game different to what they say they are.
That is NOT a good thing BTW.
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| Posted by: TheBloke at August 9, 2006, 3:45 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
jsp and winbig are right. It is blatantly obvious that this is what is happening, there is no alternative. I already explained what events first caused me to be aware of this - if you play the game on the modem it will be obvious to you that the server is not contacted when a double card is clicked, whereas the server is contacted after every other user action. Therefore the client must already know the result. I did test this by checking network traffic - no data is sent between the client and server at this point.
I am surprised at those who are so quick to cast aspersions when they themselves have no basic understanding of what is going on, or how one would test what is going on. If I know nothing on a subject I generally defer to those who do.
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| Posted by: winbig at August 9, 2006, 8:16 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jsp377
TheBloke's answer is the most obvious one if you accept the assumption that this is what Microgaming has done. That's what I expected as soon as the problem was brought up. His answer is also ery much pseudocode, and doesn't take a lot of imagination OR inside information to come up with.
There's no assuming to it....
If there's no packet being sent to your computer after you pick a card, then that's enough information for it to be a fact that the win/loss is predetermined once you click 'double'....
How else, besides sending that packet of information to your computer, are they letting the software know that you've won/lost? ESP?
All of this is moot anyways. The balance goes up or down once you click double. That's enough proof that it's predetermined.
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| Posted by: jsp377 at August 9, 2006, 8:12 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
TheBloke's answer is the most obvious one if you accept the assumption that this is what Microgaming has done. That's what I expected as soon as the problem was brought up. His answer is also ery much pseudocode, and doesn't take a lot of imagination OR inside information to come up with.
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| Posted by: The Watchdog at August 9, 2006, 4:35 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
It's easy to see how many packets are coming in and going out from/to the server; especially if you run a firewall. It's not really rocket science to compare the two and come up with an educated guess as to how they work.
ie: If you pick a card (mg) and a packet isn't sent to your computer from the server, of course it's determined as soon as you click double.
You said it your self, its still a mere guess...
Plus, haven't heard how he got that conclusion.
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| Posted by: winbig at August 9, 2006, 3:35 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
It's easy to see how many packets are coming in and going out from/to the server; especially if you run a firewall. It's not really rocket science to compare the two and come up with an educated guess as to how they work.
ie: If you pick a card (mg) and a packet isn't sent to your computer from the server, of course it's determined as soon as you click double.
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| Posted by: The Watchdog at August 9, 2006, 1:40 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
It saves time because it contacts the server only once.
This is how other VP - say, Playtech - works:
User clicks double - casino client sends 'Double' command to server
Server replies with dealer card
User clicks a card - casino client sends the card that was clicked to the server
Server replies with the list of all 4 cards, and indicates win/lose
This is how MG VP works:
User clicks double - casino client sends 'Double' command to server
Server replies with all 5 cards - the dealer card, the user's card, and the other three cards which are ignored, and also indicates win/lose
User clicks a card - the client does nothing but display the result, the server is not contacted, so this happens instantaneously.
On a slow connection each connection can take 10 or more seconds to complete - I'm sure you've played Playtech VP, clicked on a card, and experienced a delay (I've had it up to 60 s... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: TheBloke at August 8, 2006, 10:41 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by rreevy
Thanks for your post, TheBloke. Let me check I've got this right: using Playtech etc., the client has to contact the server again after th e card is picked, to notify the server of which card was selected and update the player's balance according to whether it was a winning/losing card.
With MG, as both cards and hence the result are pre-determined, the server can register a win/loss and update the player's balance at the same time it sends the cards back to the client. Thus no need to make connection again once a card has been chosen.
That's exactly right.
Quote:
I have to admit I've softened my stance a bit on this. I'm still slightly unhappy about being presented with what looks like a choice but isn't, but as the actual odds aren't affected I think it's justified if there is (or was) a good reason for it. That said, I think MG or its casinos should at least mention that somewhere in the T&Cs. More... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rreevy at August 8, 2006, 10:29 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Thanks for your post, TheBloke. Let me check I've got this right: using Playtech etc., the client has to contact the server again after th e card is picked, to notify the server of which card was selected and update the player's balance according to whether it was a winning/losing card.
With MG, as both cards and hence the result are pre-determined, the server can register a win/loss and update the player's balance at the same time it sends the cards back to the client. Thus no need to make connection again once a card has been chosen.
I have to admit I've softened my stance a bit on this. I'm still slightly unhappy about being presented with what looks like a choice but isn't, but as the actual odds aren't affected I think it's justified if there is (or was) a good reason for it. That said, I think MG or its casinos should at least mention that somewhere in the T&Cs. More important stuff is buried deep in the T&Cs after all.
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| Posted by: TheBloke at August 8, 2006, 8:43 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
I prefer it BTW - why would I want it to be slow when it could be fast? I always select the same card anyway, so it doesn't even make a psychological difference.
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| Posted by: TheBloke at August 8, 2006, 8:37 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
It saves time because it contacts the server only once.
This is how other VP - say, Playtech - works:
User clicks double - casino client sends 'Double' command to server
Server replies with dealer card
User clicks a card - casino client sends the card that was clicked to the server
Server replies with the list of all 4 cards, and indicates win/lose
This is how MG VP works:
User clicks double - casino client sends 'Double' command to server
Server replies with all 5 cards - the dealer card, the user's card, and the other three cards which are ignored, and also indicates win/lose
User clicks a card - the client does nothing but display the result, the server is not contacted, so this happens instantaneously.
On a slow connection each connection can take 10 or more seconds to complete - I'm sure you've played Playtech VP, clicked on a card, and experienced a delay (I've had it up to 60 seconds) while you wait for the server to confirm if y... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vesuvio at August 8, 2006, 8:20 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by nafanny29
I dont think MG could use an excuse that it makes the software faster, because it has to generate the dealer card, your card and 3 other random (possibly) cards to display anyway.
I've been wondering the same. The only thing I can imagine is that the software makes up the other cards locally on your computer, so they don't have to be sent - but how much time can you really save sending 2 cards instead of 5?
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| Posted by: nafanny29 at August 8, 2006, 6:13 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
I dont think MG could use an excuse that it makes the software faster, because it has to generate the dealer card, your card and 3 other random (possibly) cards to display anyway.
And I would also like to know what other games/features have this "programming shortcut" which deviates from MG's published rules of the game and how it operates.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at August 8, 2006, 4:48 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
I do not buy a need to make the software faster as an excuse for MG. The saving is small, and they have done so ery much to slow their software to the point of not responding over the last two years of monthly updates that I would rather have a proper VP double that takes an extra few milliseconds.
I also dislike the manner in which MG simply do not appear to give the proverbial "flying Rat's ass" about player issues with software bugs that turn up each time an upgrade is done. They will not even reply to direct communications from players, and casino CS do not have the ability to get any more than the standard "switch off/configure your firewall/virus software" out of MG.
If MG upgrade the casino, and the software throws a wobbly, I don't start blaming my PC if I have not changed anything at my end.
Last year, it took significant numbers of players unable to log into MG at all before they began to deal with the problem, and then discovered the problem was fixable at t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rreevy at August 8, 2006, 4:47 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
I remember a while ago somebody posted in this forum some VP screens with up to 9-10 winning doubles in a row off of a single win. I don't remember exactly if it was RTG or Playtech but it was definately not MG. So could it be MG designed it's VP double feature in such way just to prevent this from happenning? What if they have some counter that allows only 4-5 max. Then it makes a huge difference and gives you an explanation why they implemented such shortcut. Of course I don't have any proof. It just a speculation on my part but on another hand noone can prove that this theory can't be true.
Couldn't it be disproven by someone winning 6 or more doubles in a row at an MG casino?
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at August 8, 2006, 2:19 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
The reasons for my frustration, and for my efforts to exonerate MG are:
a) It is a witch hunt with ery little merit. You're hurt only by the fact that they lied to you, not by the lie itself, and there was no malicousness intended on their part.
I wouldn't say it's a witch hunt - they've been caught actually doing something they shouldn't be and deceiving players about it. I also don't think people are going overboard - no-one's called for Microgaming to be rogued.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
But they did, and the most dangerous thing for us to do now is to make a huge fuss about it, and further spread the notion that all online gambling is suspicious and untrustworthy.
I agree with your other points, but personally I think it's a good thing if people's natural suspicions about on-line gambling are reinforced. People shouldn't take anything on trust (there's no regulation and companies can do any... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rreevy at August 8, 2006, 1:07 pm | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
I have noted something similar in Blackjack. When the player hits "stand", the balance updates before the dealer has drawn the cards. Clearly this is another short cut, but in this case the player has no further influence in the outcome.
It may not be an intentional short-cut - I used to do a bit of programming, and sometimes I recall that later tasks would be completed before earlier ones, if for example the earlier ones involved displaying a lot of graphics. However, I'd be surprised if an advanced programmer couldn't find some way round this.
You're right that in the blackjack case the player has no further influence in the outcome, so it doesn't matter imo. The issue I have with the VP is that the player doesn't have any further influence in the outcome either, however the software makes it look as if they do.
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| Posted by: The Watchdog at August 8, 2006, 6:53 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBloke
The reasons for my frustration, and for my efforts to exonerate MG are:
a) It is a witch hunt with ery little merit. You're hurt only by the fact that they lied to you, not by the lie itself, and there was no malicousness intended on their part.
b) The continuing discussion is just reinforcing the irrational fears of many - countless people will find this thread, see the title, see people talking about 'predetermination' and the control of wins/losses, and assume that MG is a rigged provider. Most of these people will never sign up and post here so we'll never know what the majority are thinking. I'm sure this will feature high on Google ratings soon enough.
c) The spread of this fear is exactly what the US legislators want to aid them destroy the online gambling industry. By turning this non-issue into a big problem, we are helping them and hurting ourselves.
Believe me, if this was an actual case of rigging I would be ocal ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: The Watchdog at August 8, 2006, 6:38 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by HateMG
I remember a while ago somebody posted in this forum some VP screens with up to 9-10 winning doubles in a row off of a single win. I don't remember exactly if it was RTG or Playtech but it was definately not MG. So could it be MG designed it's VP double feature in such way just to prevent this from happenning? What if they have some counter that allows only 4-5 max. Then it makes a huge difference and gives you an explanation why they implemented such shortcut. Of course I don't have any proof. It just a speculation on my part but on another hand noone can prove that this theory can't be true.
That will be a perfect explanation why several MG casinos allow Video poker as a alid game and why some major Playtech Casinos have it as an invalid game for WR on their bonuses
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| Posted by: The Watchdog at August 8, 2006, 6:36 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by mitch
When you play the classic Millionaires Club slot and you get to the final wheel do you really believe that you have a one in ten chance of winning the jackpot as you would if this was a real physical wheel?
Mitch
I have never played at a Crypto Casino... I am not a Slots fan and even so, I am concerned why that jack pot has not being hit in so much time.
Never the less, that is not the issue here...
Do you have like 51% stock in MG by any chance??
I mean no harm to them, but damn, I just canīt stop thinking how would I feel by being a VP player at MG...Even much more if like to double up
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| Posted by: kengam at August 8, 2006, 4:59 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Why would Bryan lock the thread about English Harbour which dealt with a buggy double up that was cheating players?
Utterly rediculous. I guess locking the thread makes it go away. It was because of that thread that he slightly rogued them. Why lock such an important thread?
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| Posted by: TheBloke at August 8, 2006, 4:30 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
The reasons for my frustration, and for my efforts to exonerate MG are:
a) It is a witch hunt with ery little merit. You're hurt only by the fact that they lied to you, not by the lie itself, and there was no malicousness intended on their part.
b) The continuing discussion is just reinforcing the irrational fears of many - countless people will find this thread, see the title, see people talking about 'predetermination' and the control of wins/losses, and assume that MG is a rigged provider. Most of these people will never sign up and post here so we'll never know what the majority are thinking. I'm sure this will feature high on Google ratings soon enough.
c) The spread of this fear is exactly what the US legislators want to aid them destroy the online gambling industry. By turning this non-issue into a big problem, we are helping them and hurting ourselves.
Believe me, if this was an actual case of rigging I would be ocal in denouncing it. But it's not, and I felt it was necessar... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: HateMG at August 8, 2006, 4:07 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
I remember a while ago somebody posted in this forum some VP screens with up to 9-10 winning doubles in a row off of a single win. I don't remember exactly if it was RTG or Playtech but it was definately not MG. So could it be MG designed it's VP double feature in such way just to prevent this from happenning? What if they have some counter that allows only 4-5 max. Then it makes a huge difference and gives you an explanation why they implemented such shortcut. Of course I don't have any proof. It just a speculation on my part but on another hand noone can prove that this theory can't be true.
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| Posted by: mitch at August 8, 2006, 2:47 am | | Topic: Microgaming VP doubling rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by The Watchdog
If the point is to provide the most realistic gaming experience, they are just not doing it.
When you play the classic Millionaires Club slot and you get to the final wheel do you really believe that you have a one in ten chance of winning the jackpot as you would if this was a real physical wheel?
Mitch
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