| Posted by: amatrine at August 31, 2006, 7:57 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
My neteller was hacked through a keylogger. Neteller would not refund the money. So I went to my bank and had the charges reversed from my bank,which put my bank in the red by the way.
and blocked neteller and closed the account. Neteller is still holding me responsible for the stollen funds. I have affilate accounts that I set up with neteller, that have paid winnings to that account, and I cant not get them .Neteller is just keeping them. I find this ery wrong. Its a mess. I would never use neteller again.
We looked under thier T$C's, and they say they are not responsible for fraud ,
that the customer is. Now I use another service that has better terms and conditions. I also frequently run scans now looking for keyloggers. When that keylogger hit me, I had to change my paypal, ebay, bank cards, everything, to be safe. Then even finding it and getting it off my computer took days.
I cant be sure where I got it but I have an idea. I was isiting a top 100 casino list site, and g... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: frufrugirl at August 29, 2006, 9:00 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by silcnlayc
It is a ery scary thing to happen especially when it is through a poker site (Paradise Poker was where I got caught with a keylogger) and Neteller which is a ery tightly held site where this is where my funds were trying to be with drawn also.
[ .
moved to general
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| Posted by: chris_d at August 13, 2006, 11:39 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Hello. I PAB for about 2month ago and havenīt heard anything. I must say that Iīm ery disapointed. I have sent like 3-4 reminder mails to casinomeister also sent a few private massages. He doesnīt reply to anything and I wrote that itīs okay for me if he donīt have the time but at least tell it to me. The police havenīt started their inverstigation yet and it feels like it is almost to late to do anything. I have already realized that I wont see the money again but offcourse I still hoping for a solution...
Casinomeister if you read this please tell me your decision in this case.
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| Posted by: Linus at June 24, 2006, 3:11 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by luckymeki
Uhm... Linus... Affiliates are out to make monies based on players sent to the casinos and based on the amount of clicks per link, and... based on amounts wagered against amounts won.
So basically affiliates are there to make money by sending customers to the casinos.
They are nothing more than billboards.
Well, many of them are billboards, but they'd be insulted if you called them that.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at June 23, 2006, 11:50 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
Chris, I hope the police can do something for you. Unfortunately, 888 is based in Gibraltar, not Sweden. I am glad, though, to hear that Betcris did the right thing.
Since you're in Sweden, where it's legal - you ought to consider using a credit card from now on. (If you decide to keep gambling.) The great thing about a credit card, is that you're not responsible for unauthorized charges.
If you'd used a credit card, Casino On Net would not have been in position to blow you off, the way they have.
Seems CON have got it in for Neteller users! They also have huge WR on anything they get compared with Credit card users, yet with Neteller they can't suffer chargebacks, this is all back to front! Maybe they have had this experience before with a lot of Neteller fraud compared to credit card fraud.
With these two factors in mind, it would seem best to only use credit cards here, or not play at all. This will cost them... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: luckymeki at June 23, 2006, 8:52 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
If you (2nd-person, plural) can't stand behind your casinos - I have to ask - why are you promoting them?
Uhm... Linus... Affiliates are out to make monies based on players sent to the casinos and based on the amount of clicks per link, and... based on amounts wagered against amounts won.
So basically affiliates are there to make money by sending customers to the casinos.
They are nothing more than billboards.
I hope most of us are responsible billboards - but we are not responsible for the speeders on the highway... Yanno?
And No - I don't take it personally. There are few places such as CasinoMeister, GoneGambling that have enough following to get deals on advertisement space... and not per customer brought in.
I take it you don't know what affiliate agreements are and stuff? If you'd like I'd gladly teach you or share with you what info I have - just email the addy above and I promise to answer that which I can.
<... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: luckymeki at June 23, 2006, 8:29 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Could you PM or email me your reasons why you believe those companies should be rogued?
I don't see them listed here nor did I find any complaints based on them - anywhere.
If you have information of a specific nature that includes Joyland, Casino Classic or Maxima - I would certainly like to be in the know.
However, as I have said - I haven't found negs on them that would discredit them on a massive basis (for example Golden Palace type of stuff, Mapau stuff, etc.)
If you have firm evidence in hand and/or can point me in the direction of those particular casinos having treated multiple players innappropriately - then I'd certainly love to hear it.
wagerwitchad at yahoo dot com is a good addy for me checked at least every other day.
I will admit those casinos that you've listed have treated me fairly, with excellent customer service and I have not found them in the negatives either here or through google.
I stand by my disclaim... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Linus at June 23, 2006, 4:00 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Joyland & Casino Classic were the ones I was thinking of, but Maxima probably ought to be included in there as well.
I bugs me that - too often - players can't rely on affiliates to recommend good, reliable casinos, but we can - too often - rely on them to take the casino's side in a dispute.
Please don't think I'm specifically talking about you. It's just that your disclaimer struck me as a particularly egregious example. If you (2nd-person, plural) can't stand behind your casinos - I have to ask - why are you promoting them?
Anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread. I still think that Casino On Net can't - or at least shouldn't - get away with taking deposits willy-nilly from anyone with a debit card number, no matter how ill-gotten, while simultaneously waiting for a withdrawal, before performing any security. What it shows is that they don't care where the money's coming from, as long as it's coming in, and that the only security they're interested in, is its ow... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: luckymeki at June 22, 2006, 11:42 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
WagerWitch - you might consider making your disclaimer on your website a little more prominent.
You wouldn't want people to think it's safe to play at the casinos you promote, just because you promote them. Especially considering the casinos you're affiliated with.
ROFLMAO!!
Nah - It's quite alright Spear.
I choose which casinos offer Freebies mostly - and a few that offer good incentives. That's the ones I've enjoyed.
I make no guarantees that anyone is going to win - just that those casinos are offering deals that might be fun for online players.
So far - I haven't found any horrid items from them... YET - and IF I should, I'll pull them.
I happen to have liked the way I've been treated by the casino reps - the cashouts and the way they've handled me personally.
However - if you've got some skinny you want to share - please, by all means - without a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spearmaster at June 21, 2006, 6:39 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
WagerWitch - you might consider making your disclaimer on your website a little more prominent.
You wouldn't want people to think it's safe to play at the casinos you promote, just because you promote them. Especially considering the casinos you're affiliated with.
That was uncalled for, Linus. Not only is your post off topic, she didn't ask for your opinion of her site.
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| Posted by: Linus at June 21, 2006, 6:22 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
WagerWitch - you might consider making your disclaimer on your website a little more prominent.
Quote:
Wager Witch accepts NO liability for any losses you may incur from using the information or links provided on this or any website. Use at your own risk!
You wouldn't want people to think it's safe to play at the casinos you promote, just because you promote them. Especially considering the casinos you're affiliated with.
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| Posted by: Linus at June 21, 2006, 6:15 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Chris, I hope the police can do something for you. Unfortunately, 888 is based in Gibraltar, not Sweden. I am glad, though, to hear that Betcris did the right thing.
Since you're in Sweden, where it's legal - you ought to consider using a credit card from now on. (If you decide to keep gambling.) The great thing about a credit card, is that you're not responsible for unauthorized charges.
If you'd used a credit card, Casino On Net would not have been in position to blow you off, the way they have.
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| Posted by: chris_d at June 21, 2006, 2:48 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Yes, I have allready talked to the police and hopefully they will start the investigation soon. Gambling is not illigal here in Sweden so thats no problem. But was is the next step if the confirm that this is fraud but they can´t get the thief? Am I totaly lost then? Is my only hope to see if the police can catch the thief here?
Some how this case feel so wierd, neteller can´t keep my (or somebody elses) money safe, CON and Betcris(the other gamingsite who have $1700) take stolen money and at least CON don´t consider for one second of giving the money back. And then this security that they say has no breach what so ever, then how is it possible to open two accounts in the same name? Sorry for whining about this but the fact is that $6400 is gone, and it looks like I won´t get it back...
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| Posted by: luckymeki at June 21, 2006, 1:19 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
I will just reiterate:
It's a legal issue. Someone using your credit card - for whatever purpose - without your permission is a POLICE Matter.
Directly go to your police department and hand them all the necessary paperwork to show the transactions. Provide them with the information from Neteller - and the Casino.
If you're not willing to go to the Police Department, then chances are you are SOL on getting any return.
Sorry - but that's the thick and thin of it.
In the division I work in, we see an average of 3 - 5 fraudulent credit card actions occur every month. I live in a small town. So - I'm assuming with a larger population - you will have more points of theft.
If you're not willing to report the theft - then you will have to suffer the consequences.
If it is illegal to gamble in your area and you are breaking the law - then those are consequences you will have to deal with as well.
IF you want gambling to be le... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: bpb at June 21, 2006, 4:58 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
bpb - Casino On Net accepted the deposit, declined the withdraw, but allowed the hacker to gamble away all the money he had stolen.
The only one freerolling in this situation is the casino.
I have no idea how anything you are saying relates to my post. Did you read what I wrote?
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| Posted by: Linus at June 21, 2006, 3:59 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bb1webs
... just wanted to add that neteller's response made little sense to me.
to what extent does limiting my instacash amounts protect the amount that a hacker could withdraw from money already in the account?
It doesn't. But it does protect your bank account. Also, it keeps them from bouncing checks off your account, which could create even more problems.
Quote:
further to worry me is now I realize even if I keep my balance at a small amount; that apparently the hacker could use the instacash option to steal money from me that I don't even have in the account.
Yes. That's why you need to make Neteller disable the "Instacash" feature.
Credit cards would be infinitely better - since you're protected against fraud if you use a credit card. But you can't use a credit card if you're an American.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at June 20, 2006, 9:16 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bpb
Devil's Advocate here
If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following
1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.
2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.
3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was ery erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.
If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves fro... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: silcnlayc at June 20, 2006, 8:54 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
In another thread I explained what happened (can't remember which thread) when I contacted all individuals concerned about the attempted breach on my Neteller account.
First, I changed my passcode and closed my Neteller account (called them personallyand e-mailed them) and told them to keep it closed until further notice (which they did for about a week)
Then I wiped my hardrive clean
Then I called Neteller and spoke PERSONALLY on the phone and by e-mail (always get it in writing the meister says) to a CS and had them MANUALLY write in my account under no certain terms will anything above a certain limit be honored.
Called them back 2 days later and requested them to check my account (testing them) to see if anything was posted and they read erbatim what I told them to write and asked them to edit this and put another limit down which they said they would.
Called another few days and asked again if any notice was posted on my account and they again ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: bb1webs at June 20, 2006, 8:50 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
... just wanted to add that neteller's response made little sense to me.
to what extent does limiting my instacash amounts protect the amount that a hacker could withdraw from money already in the account?
further to worry me is now I realize even if I keep my balance at a small amount; that apparently the hacker could use the instacash option to steal money from me that I don't even have in the account.
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| Posted by: bb1webs at June 20, 2006, 5:22 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Hi all,
silcnlayc, you said
Quote:
they didn't get a dime out of my Neteller for it was declined due to a note posted in my account saying anything over a certain amount, do not honor.
so I wrote NETeller requesting the same, here is what I received back
Quote:
I believe the only thing we can do is to lower your Instacash Limit so there would be a lower limit that can be withdrawn from your account.
Thanks
Joe Bella
Account Representative
VIP Member Services
could you please tell me how you went about putting a "note" on your account to limit withdrawals?
thanks in advance.
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| Posted by: jetset at June 20, 2006, 8:52 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
chris_d: I repeat - submit a PAB and Bryan will use his senior contacts at Neteller to confirm this and find out exactly what happened. He needs the PAB from you authorising his involvement before he can act, and this could be a fast route to putting this matter to rights once and for all.
888.com may claim that they will not enter into correspondence with you, but they are required to respond to eCOGRA if you submit a complaint to the Fair Gaming Advocate, so that avenue of exploring a solution is still open, too.
Then there is the 888.com licensing jurisdiction, which fortunately is one of the better ones and will give you a hearing.
Start with the 'Meister and work your way down the list until you have cracked this.
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| Posted by: dominique at June 20, 2006, 4:24 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bpb
Devil's Advocate here
If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following
1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.
2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.
3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was ery erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.
If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves fro... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: bpb at June 20, 2006, 4:09 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
bpb - you know, as well as I do - if you know anything about the casino industry - that Casino On Net would never let your friendly madman cashout. They would "notice" the duplicate account, and promptly confiscate the winnings.
Who said anything about duplicate accounts? Your accomplice is playing on your account, just from a different IP. I've never heard of a non-rogue casino refusing a cashout because they did a traceroute on the IP and saw that the play originated from a different city/state/country from your home address.
In my opinion, this is ery much about a casino protecting itself. But it has been made ery clear to me by many posters that I know absolutely nothing about the casino industry
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| Posted by: Linus at June 20, 2006, 3:56 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
It's important for people who use Neteller, or who play at casinos, to realize this could happen to you. If you wake up one morning, and your Neteller is cleaned out, it's likely you'll have little recourse. The casinos - too many of them - are located in Costa Rico and other places specifically chosen to be beyond the reach of the law. So when a casino gets tired of talking, it can simply say, "We now consider this matter closed."
bpb - you know, as well as I do - if you know anything about the casino industry - that Casino On Net would never let your friendly madman cashout. They would "notice" the duplicate account, and promptly confiscate the winnings.
CON's policies are all about freerolling on stolen money, and nothing whatsoever to do with protecting itself.
You are right, though, that players must protect themselves, when it comes to online gambling.
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| Posted by: bpb at June 20, 2006, 1:20 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Devil's Advocate here
If CON returns these funds, then anyone could do the following
1) Give a friend who likes across the country, or preferably, on the other side of the world, the necessary info to transfer $10,000 to the casino from Neteller. That friend does this from an internet cafe or other anonymous location.
2) That friend gambles like a madman to try to hit $50,000 or bust. If he hits $50,000, he withdraws, and you split the profit.
3) If you go busto, the original account holder contacts the casino after a few days and claims fraud. Any investigation into the play will reveal that it took place many thousands of miles away, and that the gambling pattern was ery erratic and consistent with a nutjob hacker blowing 10 grand in an effort to screw over the original account holder.
If the casino pays out, it gives scammers a freeroll at making a large score. Casinos need to protect themselves from fraud, and the only way to do so, is unfortuna... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at June 20, 2006, 12:51 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by chris_d
Okej, but Neteller also have protection againt this:
11.2. It is your responsibility to keep your Account identification, secure identification, password, security questions and answers and other information specific to your Account confidential and in a safe and secure place. Should another person gain access to your Account by passing all identification and security alidation and erification checks, we are entitled to treat any transaction conducted by that person as alid and authorised by you and are not responsible for any loss or damage you may incur as a result.
I thought I had some kind of insurance but i guess not... But if I canīt get my money back from Neteller and they canīt protect it, then I would say that Neteller is useless.
Maybe I should try that even if CON is on the list: donīt bother. Canīt find PAB now, mabye itīs closed for the moment?
This was the answer I got from CON today:
"Pleas... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: chris_d at June 20, 2006, 12:30 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by haddddock
I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.
NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.
Hope it turns out for you
Okej, but Neteller also have protection againt this:
11.2. It is your responsibility to keep your Account identification, secure identification, password, security questions and answers and other information specific to your Account confidential and in a safe and secure place. Should another person gain access to your Account by passing all identification and security alidation and erification checks, we are entitled to treat any transaction conducted by that person as alid and authorised by you and are not responsible for any loss or damage you may incur as a result.
I thought I had some kind of i... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: haddddock at June 19, 2006, 7:05 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
I have to agree with bb1webs although for slightly different reasons.
NETeller guarantees its merchants against fraud and charges a premium for doing so. Your best bet will be to convince NETeller that these funds were fraudulently removed from your account and seek compensation from them.
Hope it turns out for you
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| Posted by: bb1webs at June 19, 2006, 6:49 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Hi,
not being a lawyer, I can't say what legal grounds you have/not: but I do know right from wrong.
CON has the position of reputation to consider and the resources to easily absorb this since when you get down to it; the money they'd be returning was lost to them anyway.
However CON has and continues to prove what kind of integrity they have, thus it is unlikely they will ever make things right unless excessive pressure is put on them and even then I don't know if they'd cave. I recall a player at Pacific had a similar situation only that player had even went to the trouble to contact CON and request a freeze on the account until such time that a full investigation could be done. a short time later the player logged back into the account (which to my understanding shouldn't have been possible if it was frozen) ... only to find out that the remaining money had also been taken. Come to think of it ... I think I read about that incident here at CM.
What boggles... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: luckymeki at June 19, 2006, 8:50 am | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Linus
Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.
Actually - the issue is not gambling - although the end product was gambling.
The issue of concern is someone using a Neteller account hacking to forge credit usage from one point to another point.
That is a crime. A Federal Crime.
Prove that first - then rebut with the casino.
If Neteller is agreeing that the account was hacked - Neteller should be liable for the losses. Just my way of thinking.
However, it is a crime - regardless of the legality of gambling. (Which, only WA has managed to make online gambling illegal, to the best of my knowledge.)
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| Posted by: Linus at June 18, 2006, 7:55 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Well, internet gambling is illegal in the US. So getting help from the police is going to be a longshot, at best.
Second, CON has already said the money deposited at Casino On Net was stolen. Their position is, they don't care. So even if the got the police involved, there's nothing they can do about it. Casino On Net - like all internet casinos - is beyond the reach of American law. Since they know that, they they could care less whether he contacts the police.
Third, as far as "legal legs" are concerned, there are no legal legs for Americans to stand on. That's why it's so important for Americans to know that, before they get involved in online gambling. Perhaps if Chris lived on the Isle of Man, or Gibraltar, he might be able to turn to his courts. But he doesn't.
Mitch -
Quote:
Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?
I've nev... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: luckymeki at June 18, 2006, 2:43 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
First - it is a legal issue.
Take it up with your local Police Department or State Law Enforcement Agency.
They will begin a search to attempt a locate on the person hacking your information. If it is found to be across state or country lines it becomes a Federal Matter - which will include the FBI.
IF you are 100% in the right - that is a lot of money.
Start with the legal law enforcement angle - and provide them the correct contact numbers. Advise the Casino/Poker Room that you give them permission to discuss your case - and Advise Neteller the exact same thing.
From that point you will have more of a legal leg to stand on.
Theft and identity theft are becoming a major problem - and there are task forces to deal with it.
If you are in the right - and you have the law enforcement investigation to clear you and the transactions, with the assistance of Neteller - you should have your money back in no time.
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| Posted by: mitch at June 18, 2006, 1:40 pm | | Topic: NE hacked, CON wonīt repay me although they got my money($4700) Forum: Casino Meister |
Strange fraud this!
A hacker manages to break into someones Neteller account.
This account has thousands of dollars in it. The hacker to benefit must have a way of diverting this money to himself.
Apparently, we are being asked to believe, he doesn't bother doing this but opens up an account at a casino the account holder already has an account at!
Why would he do this? If he intended to deposit then somehow withdraw to a separate account of his own why would he not choose a new casino?
Quite difficult to open 2 accounts at the same casino using exactly the same identity details. Good trick that. Anybody here ever managed it?
Something not quite right in the state of Denmark!
Mitch
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