| Posted by: rabiddog at December 27, 2006, 1:16 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Forget about the rep. If you have a legitimate complaint go straight to eCogra if the casino will not return your emails in a timely manner.
I had a Fortune Lounge casino close my account for no reason. I emailed them and they replied and stated suspicious activity. What I won a small amount and that suspicious activity? Im not sure exactly what they thought was suspicious and they never told me. Anyhow, I replied back to them that I would be filing a complaint with eCogra and a PAB with this site, I also refered them to this message board and the complaints about the Vegas Affiliates group. They responded in less than a day saying they would be reopening my account. They just asked for erification documents. I had already sent documents in to another Fortune Casino, but obliged them and sent the same exact documents in again. They replied back that the documents were not clear and asked for color documents. I thought that was rediculus, but once I made a set of color I could really tell the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: eeeee at December 26, 2006, 11:23 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by BBKPoker
bump.
They have ignored a few emails of mine for the last three weeks.
Someone needs to light a fire under their a**.
AFAIK, all the players addressed by the hideous VegasVIP message have been begrudgingly paid, and not through any group effort. First their deposits, and later, their winnings too.
What haven't you been paid? What was the time period? Which casino?
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 10, 2006, 12:28 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by MadMat
This is getting silly now. You are barking up the wrong tree
I'm going to point out here that I'm a fairly succesful online poker player, with a 5 figure bankroll. (this isn't intended as a brag, just a fact)
Why would I bother trying to rip off Vegas VIP for a paltry £75 ?
The amount of time and effort I've expended on this little episode spent instead playing poker would have probably earnt me far more than that!
All I did was blew off some steam playing slots after a crappy night at the tables!
Mat
Put that way, no. You wouldn't put all that effort in for a measly £75, but at the beginning of this thread you wrote of having used the same "system" at other MG casinos with no trouble!
I can't see how blowing off steam on slots can get an account locked, but some sort of organised "system" possibly would if it involved the casino believing that "cheating"... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: MadMat at December 9, 2006, 10:59 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
This is getting silly now. You are barking up the wrong tree
I'm going to point out here that I'm a fairly succesful online poker player, with a 5 figure bankroll. (this isn't intended as a brag, just a fact)
Why would I bother trying to rip off Vegas VIP for a paltry £75 ?
The amount of time and effort I've expended on this little episode spent instead playing poker would have probably earnt me far more than that!
All I did was blew off some steam playing slots after a crappy night at the tables!
Mat
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 9, 2006, 5:06 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Ferretktf
This is definately not the case for me (I was one of those locked out without winnings) as most (if not all) of the Casinos in this group that I played were accessed directly from the Casino site and not through an affiliate.
This narrows the field then, and now the fact that it seems bonuses were not the issue points to something ery sinister going on.
Last night I perused the PWC figures for a couple of casinos, simply because I recall something odd a couple of months ago at Challenge, which shows the latest figures when you log on.
It seems that the numbers for slots has been showing some HUGE ariations about the norm, beyond the alues that I have come to expect, which are from the low 90's% to a tad over 100%, this probably with the bigger hits and/or progressive payouts. The striking ariation is all the more worrying because these are monthly means for ALL play at the casino, and seem to back up what has been posted recently,... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Ferretktf at December 9, 2006, 3:49 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
One case does come to mind that may help, and that is affiliate fraud... In a few cases, the bounty is greater than the players first deposit, and if player and afiliate were in together, a scam is possible with no bonus, no manipulations etc.
This is definately not the case for me (I was one of those locked out without winnings) as most (if not all) of the Casinos in this group that I played were accessed directly from the Casino site and not through an affiliate.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 9, 2006, 1:24 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
As a scientist by trade, I will not likely rest till I find out what the hell happened that was neither Fraud, bonus abuse, nor a scam.
There are clues, suggestions, lines of possible research, but only the industry knows at present. Previously, the industry has put forward arguments as to why the exact details of a fraud must remain a secret, mainly that it prevents said fraudsters from benefiting from inside information to launch a modified, and far better, attack.
The fact this is also "inventive" and something "not seen before" rules out the traditional forms of bonus abuse, and there are many playing styles that this seems to cover nowdays.
One case does come to mind that may help, and that is affiliate fraud, especially in the case where the casino pays a bounty to an affiliate for getting a new player to register and deposit (irrespective of that player losing or winning). In a few cases, the bounty is greater than the players first deposit, an... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Mousey at December 9, 2006, 12:50 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge
.....
Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by “scammers” that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of “bonus abuse” or “fraud” or “scamming”.
I appreciate that you have come here to 'clarify' matters for us, but I'm just an ordinary player who finds all this ery disturbing. I think that you must find an appropriate word somewhere in the dictionary that describes these 'scammers'.
Quote:
Scam
Pronunciation
Rhymes: -æm
[edit] Noun
scam
Fraudulent deal. Business plan intended to defraud.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 9, 2006, 12:03 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
It is possible you were an innocent caught up in something big, and you just happened to play a similar pattern. Many players with fraud in mind often go for the quick exit, and this is why the first withdrawal, and it's handling, can be such a pain. Given this, I don't see why casinos cannot accept that it is no longer JUST fraudulent players that will make their first cash-out at the first opportunity. I do this myself now, as it separates the truth from the hype and promises of "easy cash-ins" that all casinos offer (they are hardly likely to post "if you think depositing is not easy, just wait till you try to cash-in").
If you deposited, claimed no bonus, but just played around for the day and cashed in to see what the service was like, I fail to see why you were tangled up in the first place. They must think you did something else far more sinister, perhaps some commonality in registration details or referral portal (yes, they DO record this, & it is also in the r... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rabiddog at December 8, 2006, 10:54 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Well I cant speak for anyone else who had problems with this group. I can only give my account. I did not play for a bonus. I also did not just play slots only. I did play some at number of different slots, both reel and ideo. But I also played blackjack and bacarrat. I think its probably more that I cashed out the same day I deposited. If playing for a bonus, I could see where a casino would accuse you of bonus abuse by cashing out the same day you deposit. But I wasn't playing for a bonus. I normally cash out on the same day I deposit, especially when Im ahead. I like to check the speed of cashouts at casino's I play. If they are slow, then I rarely play there anymore. Or if I have problems of some sort with a cashout, like continually asking for documents even after I sent them in. Just a stall effort. Cash outs say a ton about a casino's ethical side.
I for one am happy the group paid. And Im more than willing to let this die and the casino get on the road to building their credability ba... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: 1819 at December 8, 2006, 10:27 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by UKDafoe
While their actions the past few months have been extremely questionable, Im surprised theyve decided to refund the money they seized. It suggests theyre willing to start over with a new attitude, hopefully the one that earned them everyones respect and made them eCogra and CM members. Assuming they do actually refund the money seized, they should be taken off the rogue list.
willing to start over with a new attitude? since when is paying a winner a new attitude? if someone used some kinda software or had inside knowledge or whatever then thats different and they dont deserve to be paid. but since egasvip isnt saying so, then we are led to believe they either a. had a great run of luck or b. "exploited" a "random" game without breaking any rules. to just say that someone "scammed" the casino is stupid. if the real reason is someone did figure out a pattern or tendency, and the casino doenst want to say so for fea... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vesuvio at December 8, 2006, 9:36 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge
Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.
The above is why this group must remain on the rogue list for the forseeable future. Claiming carte blanche to do whatever they like on the basis of "bonus abuse" (or "exploitative playing activities" - whatever you want to call it), when no terms and conditions have been broken, is rogue behaviour. This isn't an isolated incident as this group have deserved to be rogued for a considerable period of time. It's characteristic that instead of closing the accounts (which is perfectly acceptable - after paying - if they don't want particular players), the casino seem to want to keep them around so they have the chance of defrauding them at some point in the ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 8, 2006, 9:12 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by soflat
It's pretty interesting. Apparently they did nothing wrong, so the casino is reluctantly paying them. You don't see a casino group admit to fraudulently withholding funds ery often. I mean it is not like the casino is claiming they made a mistake or the players broke a rule or anything, they are just saying that they are paying.
You still haven't; they are paying (reluctantly), but in the same breath are maintaining that they were in the right to take the initial action they did - and still believe so (..and presumably do the same in a similar situation).
All this is making me more and more interested in exactly what these players are supposed to have done that was neither fraud, bonus abuse, nor scamming. More interestingly, one player claims they did not even use a bonus to start with, and that whatever gaming they did on the slots was with entirely their own funds put at the mercy of the random nature of the game. Whatever their ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 8, 2006, 6:50 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
When a fire is out of control, Gasoline is NOT the best remedy!
"Unlike anything seen before" but neither "fraud, bonus abuse or scamming", I can't see anything wrong with that! As far as I was aware, playing without the use of these three sins was legitimate, saying otherwise simply implies that players are not allowed to win "too much".
As for the idea that releasing more detail will damage Vegas Partners, well, it's too late for that now!
Releasing more detail will only serve to sway opinion that perhaps these players WERE indeed scamming, but not in the traditional sense. With no detail, and no accusations of fraud, new players can have absolutely no idea as to whether what they are doing is "legitimate", or could lead to them being in a "heads we win, tails you lose" situation with their wagering. There are so many other MG casinos out there that ONLY discriminate against fraud, and scamming, and innocent players will know... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GrandMaster at December 8, 2006, 2:19 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge
Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by “scammers” that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do not fall into conventional categories of “bonus abuse” or “fraud” or “scamming”.
Something is still not clear. If they were "scammers" as you put it, why did pay them, why did you not expose them and defend your position in public?
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| Posted by: VegasVIP Lounge at December 8, 2006, 1:08 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
The Vegas VIP Lounge Group understands the concern of the wider gaming community over its use of ambiguous language in referring to this group of players’ activities as ‘illegitimate, exploitative and abusive’. The casino group however cannot release further details relating to this case due to its implications for its partners and for the wider security of the Casino Group. The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to once again emphasize that it pays millions of winners every year without delay or hassle. It is a fact that wherever the Casino Group has made a genuine error, it has always done all that it can to compensate the players in question.
Unfortunately, over the past six months the Vegas VIP Lounge group has endured a number of attacks by “scammers” that abused the casino and subsequently used this forum to discredit the reputation of the Group. Again the Vegas VIP Lounge would like to stress that the activities which took place were unlike anything it has experienced before, and therefore do... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: UKDafoe at December 8, 2006, 5:17 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
While their actions the past few months have been extremely questionable, Im surprised theyve decided to refund the money they seized. It suggests theyre willing to start over with a new attitude, hopefully the one that earned them everyones respect and made them eCogra and CM members. Assuming they do actually refund the money seized, they should be taken off the rogue list.
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at December 8, 2006, 12:36 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge
The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.
Please share with us what constitutes illegitimate or exploitative playing activities. If the players committed fraud, then they should not be paid, but if stayed within the T&C, then they should have been paid and then have their accounts closed. If they found a genuine loophole in the T&C, and weren't just too lucky for the casino management's liking, then the person responsible for the... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: thelawnet at December 8, 2006, 12:31 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
From reading the threads, it seems that a number of players are depositing, claiming the slots bonus, and spinning at mid to high bet levels on slots such as "Thunderstruck".
The rep claims this is an "illegitimate" playing method. Whether or not this was orgainsed, there is NO WAY that playing a slot at a bet available in the software is in any way "illegitimate".
That appears to be the case..... Basically they offered people bonuses to encourage them to deposit and lose, but got upset when they didn't spend hours grinding away against the house edge, and in some cases even one.
Apparently this is 'illegitimate'.
Perhaps they should learn that if they want to offer bonuses they should offer them to loyal players, and if they don't offer bonuses they won't have any problems, and above all that casinos have to pay the winners - the deposit button isn't a 'donate' ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rabiddog at December 8, 2006, 12:15 am | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
issued a "smokescreen" statement in the hope that it will indicate their case,
I think you are probably correct here. I mean come on, if illegitemate playing activities were used, wouldn't that be a perfect reason to keep the money? Instead this group got caught itself using illegitemate business practices by eCogra and now they are trying to justify it with an accusation. Just pay people what you owe them and maybe somewhere down the road you can earn back the trust of the online community and work your way off the Casino Miester Rogue list. But after what this casino group has done, they will have to work hard to earn that trust back. And posting a statement like that instead of owning up to bad business procedure is NOT a good start. j
I also want to add, there is no such thing as +EV on slots in the long run. HA is just way too high. You may get lucky and have a decent run, like I made $300 on Loaded playing a ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 7, 2006, 11:48 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
From reading the threads, it seems that a number of players are depositing, claiming the slots bonus, and spinning at mid to high bet levels on slots such as "Thunderstruck".
The rep claims this is an "illegitimate" playing method. Whether or not this was orgainsed, there is NO WAY that playing a slot at a bet available in the software is in any way "illegitimate". In one case, it seems that even $3 is seen as "illegitimate". Previously, grinding out bonuses with tiny bets are "illegitimate" methods of play - whatever next? what is this tiny window between 0.90c and $3 that will constitute "legitimate" play on slots?
"Organised" may simply mean that one of their affiliates did a damn good marketing job, and they should be grateful that so many players tried them out. Given that the first ever withdrawals were denied, the players were given NO OPPORTUNITY to show continuing loyalty by depositing in further weeks.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Mousey at December 7, 2006, 11:28 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by VegasVIP Lounge
.... The Vegas VIP Lounge would like to emphasise that the circumstances relating to this case are quite different from any other that it has encountered before. The players involved in these illegitimate playing activities have been both highly organised and inventive in their methods. Therefore, although their accounts will be reopened and winnings paid, the Vegas VIP Lounge Casino reserves the right to take whatever actions it sees as necessary should any of these players display any further signs of engaging in exploitative playing activities.
Dear me... now I'm dying of curiosity! "organized", "inventive", "illegitimate playing activities" (I do think the later should be spelled out in the T&C, don't you??) I see no mention of fraud (multiple accounts, etc.), nor of iolation of T&C ... so... ummm... (and I know the casino rep won't tell us) I'm wondering just what the devil were these players... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: BBKPoker at December 7, 2006, 11:25 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Given the number of complaints, good riddance to this group. You deserve to be rogued. I thought it was suspect when they had tons of complaints a few months ago, then I thought it was peculiar when they stopped advertising on Meister, and now we know why. These guys seem to be out to lock and confiscate winnings wherever they arbitrarily feel like without listening to any kind of rationality or reason.
Hope they go out of business and 32red goes back to accepting US customers to replace them.
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| Posted by: fatihkur at December 7, 2006, 10:51 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
I have just received a reply from casino. They are not going to open my account with 5175 dollar in it. So here ,at the forum, their representative says one thing for the public and in private emails the casino says the opposite. May be that is because i won "too much". They will now pay 100 and 200 dollar winnings to some players just to keep situation quiet and they are not going to pay out the big winnings like mine. I have just sent an email to Ecogra. This casino lies all the time!
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 7, 2006, 10:01 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by MadMat
I think your sarcasm detector might be broken matey . . . .
It's the industry that has put their big foot in it. There have been many cases of bogus slot systems being sold on the net, and casinos just laugh at people who come along thinking they can beat slots (as opposed to games like Blackjack) by using a system that does not involve tampering with the game itself. One player claims to have bet only $3 per spin, yet was still deemed to have been exploiting slots. Given that quite a few slots have the bet MINIMUM not too far below this because coin min is 25c this is a joke!
My tale was not sarcasm, I actually DID happen, but the casino accepted this as something that will happen on a random game, and whatever strategy I used made no difference to the outcome in the end, the slot was "s**t hot" that day, and I would have won whatever fiddlings I did with coins and lines.
For a casino group to elevate such types of s... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: soflat at December 7, 2006, 9:57 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
Clearly, playing slots on a slots only bonus is now bonus abuse (the more common term for exploitative play). This amounts to saying players are not permitted to even TRY to win with the sign-up bonus.
That's why good little players like me always try to lose when we play slot bonuses. Then the casino can't blame us if we happen to win.
The player in this case was clearly trying to win and not even hiding his intentions.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 7, 2006, 9:38 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by MadMat
I'd happily sell "MadMats Super Secret Beat the Online Slots System" for $100 to anyone who wants a copy!
If I sell enough copies the system will have worked
Mat
I think I know the system, but am utterly gobsmacked that it actually WORKS, because it really shouldn't unless the games are merely pseudorandom rather than fully random.
My own ideas are based on looking for the way the scatters fall in the free spin slots to predict bonus rounds, and also the way that the "hotness" and "coldness" of some slots aries with coin size and sometimes coins per line. It seems to alter a scatter dropping cycle that they don't have because they are random
I tried such an idea last week on Munchkins, and did not manage to turn £50 into £1000 by betting into, and out of, arious scatter fall patterns. I didn't bet progressively in certain situations as this could not work due t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at December 7, 2006, 9:29 pm | | Topic: A Vegas VIP Lounge Statement Regarding The Recent Dispute Over Payment of Winnings Forum: Casino Meister |
So, now even playing slots with a 5% house edge on a bonus with 20x WR AND a requirement to exit with D+2xB at the end can not only be beaten, but in an exploitative manner.
Clearly, playing slots on a slots only bonus is now bonus abuse (the more common term for exploitative play). This amounts to saying players are not permitted to even TRY to win with the sign-up bonus.
This is often the WHOLE DAMN POINT of signing up, you see the terms, and feel you have at least a fair chance of winning enough to make it worth while placing your own funds at risk. This is NOT a "free chip" players deposited their own funds as well, and these were most certainly at risk.
It would seem that Vegas Affiliates and players are suggesting that the explotation was to play "certain specific slot games", and in a "certain manner".
WTF, press "spin"!!! It's bloody RANDOM, and with a house edge of 5%!
The only strategy on slots is to press "spin".... | | Read Entire Entry |
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