| Posted by: recruit at April 11, 2007, 12:49 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dominique
So you never got paid?
There should have been an open opportunity at some point if it was months ago.
Once they told me (on several occasions) that there was no way TO pay me, I just played out the $850 I had won (and tried to cash out, before being told there was no way to collect) for the hell of it...figured if they weren't going to pay me, and I couldn't get management to respond after sending no less than about 12 emails, I was kinda pointless. I probably should've gotten Bryan involved, or I guess I could have sent 50 MORE emails, but it wasn't that much money and i really didn't think it would change anything. For the record, I posted about it here when it happened and offered MHO that this should have gotten them rouge status.
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| Posted by: recruit at April 11, 2007, 12:27 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dominique
As far as I know they ARE paying everyone. They are shutting down because they don't think they will be able to do so in the long run.
Where did you hear they weren't paying? I must have missed something.
A few months ago, I deposited 3-400 and managed to win about 850...they promptly sent me an email the following day saying they had credited my account with a bonus, and "oh, by the way we currently have no way to pay US players, but we're working on it....."
I emailed them back, asking why this wasn't being displayed in big bold letters on the cashier page so that players could make the call as to whether they wanted to continue to "donate" to the casino, knowing they could not collect on any winnings. I further requested refunds of the monies I had deposited in the past two weeks, as I would NOT have done so had I known I would not be paid. I was promised the casino "manager" would resp... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dominique at April 10, 2007, 11:58 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by recruit
Shutting down after months of continuing to take US deposits full well knowing they had no way to pay out winners....it's about time they shut it down.
As far as I know they ARE paying everyone. They are shutting down because they don't think they will be able to do so in the long run.
Where did you hear they weren't paying? I must have missed something.
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| Posted by: recruit at April 10, 2007, 11:06 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dominique
They are shutting down. They are unable to process payments.
Shutting down after months of continuing to take US deposits full well knowing they had no way to pay out winners....it's about time they shut it down.
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| Posted by: lojo at April 10, 2007, 8:01 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Seeing 49er Casino shut out US players (lets hope that's all it is) is bittersweet. On one hand I applaud them for not accepting wagers from people they can't pay... on the other I can see where news like this would bolster an argument that the industry is dying completely for US players.
If they are indeed closing shop it is a terrible thing, they are a good casino. Less than honorable casinos are staying open.
IMO, the industry, in toto, will not disappear completely from the American market or completely sell out to the big boys onland. It's too big and too lucrative.
Every day seems to bring new developments.
Good luck DC
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| Posted by: lojo at April 10, 2007, 7:47 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by tim5ny
Check out this link and then you may understand why the author of this thread is in a negative mode about online gambling! http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=25680
No one could blame him for being pissed off. It makes my blood boil and I'm not out a cent.
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| Posted by: Da_Gambla at April 10, 2007, 7:36 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by tim5ny
Check out this link and then you may understand why the author of this thread is in a negative mode about online gambling! http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=25680
Thanks Tim -
I did start to feel that the things being said were in fact being repeated over and over, which usually dictates an emotional situation. That's why I prefaced my last post with the fact that I don't have much of a bias either way.
DC, I read the thread provided by Tim in its entirety. Although you have stated that this thread is not motivated, I'm not convinced, and you know that if you were in our shoes, you might not be 100% convinced either...
Regardless, I stand by my statement that you are entitled to your feelings, as they are alid to you and your outlook or situation. I notice your case is still unresolved, and for that, I wish you well going forward with it. If it matters, I do think you deserve the winnings. I al... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: tim5ny at April 10, 2007, 3:45 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
I'm not disputing that things are bad now for the American player. See my Stalling tactics theory thread in the Online Casinos section. However, I am pointing to the fact that there could be some personal endetta behind your motives. I would be engeful too if I were in your shoes.. but given the information in your story I think your bride may not have helped your cause either.
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| Posted by: dc9999 at April 10, 2007, 2:12 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
First off, having personally been involved in some extremely negative experiences with online gambling (as Tim5ny points out above) I understand how one could come to the conclusion that my opinions are based solely on a need to ent.
While there may be some deep rooted psychological need of mine to exact a degree of "revenge" on the RTG's and Warren Clouds of the online gaming universe, I also think it's important to note, that prior to last year, I had ery few negative experiences with online casino sites - and in fact - felt several of them were quite stellar.
The reason I started this thread though, is not Crystal Palace influenced - at least not to the degree some might think it is. I just felt that there were MAJOR changes afoot relative to this industry, and I looked on (from afar admittedly) with a combination of pity and horror, at how many previously "above board" sites suddenly had payment troubles.
The fact is this industry is and never was... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Simmo! at April 10, 2007, 9:43 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Fact of the matter is the landscape has changed, but the nature of gambling will always remain a contentious one whichever way you look at it. The industry has always had it's down moments and always will, regulated or otherwise. It's a business with a high $ turnover so if there is one thing you can guarantee it's that it will always attract "innovation", which may or may not be a good thing.
It's not "all" over, but it's a far tougher landscape for those across the pond, no doubt. But the thread title also says "...for now" and I believe that's an accurate statement in so much as it recognises that the industry is ever-changing.
The legislation has opened the way for rogues to take advantage of diminishing legit options for US players and potentially set the industry back in the process, but that too will change eventually. My iew is that "online gambling" is still a ery young industry and we can expect to see ups and downs for many, many y... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Da_Gambla at April 10, 2007, 8:59 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Ok DC, I'm gonna try and bring non-polarized logic into this...
It's risky, but I'll try (hey, we're gamblers, right? )
First off, my bias: none.
I'm not an affiliate, couldn't care less which casinos die and which ones survive. I'm not a player with a payment held up, so I'm not in any such mindset that the casinos are all rogues or crooked. What I am able to do is to keep up on current events and make, what I hope are, sound logical conclusions. Let's begin...
This is an industry, a multi-billion dollar pie in its whole. Each country represents a slice of that pie, and up to now, each of those countries has LOST their cut in the way of commerce, interest and taxation. The US took the lead in declaring they want their piece of the pie. Ok, so they used different wording, but we all know damn well that's what it actually amounts up to. People are screaming that now governments such as Canada and Israel are working 'sympathetically' alongside the US to cripple ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Stanford at April 10, 2007, 6:42 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
Those are strong points, Stanford. Am I reading too much into it to think you might be saying that the economic situation created by the loss of so many US players hastened FL bean counters to say, 'f*ck it, we'd lose more money by paying them than we will ever gain back in goodwill in the longrun'? That can't be good business. It's yet to be seen which accounts will be settled. I understand yours and other's position though.
...As for solid operations reneging on wagers... this isn't a sitdown blackjack game, it's a pivotal point in the future of the industry. The game must go on!
I think that. And I think they intend to offer more bonuses. But they just might not pay them. Yes, I think in today's climate they are saying that their goodwill and reputation are not worth much.
But look at the player reaction. At one time this would have been a huge deal. But now... not much. We had all hope eCOGRA would help - we had hoped..... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: lojo at April 10, 2007, 5:40 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Stanford
It looks like the end to me as well. I agree with the poster that Casinomeister has done all he can. But....
Fortune Lounge is going down a path that would never have been tolerated in years past. And eCOGRA isn't doing anything about it. Yes, when Bushco is out we might have been able to pick up the pieces. But not if once solid casinos blatantly cheat players.
Many in the US want to carve out only poker and let the rest of the online gaming slide away. I would not be surprised if that isn't what happens. Why would I lobby for an industry that reneges on wagers?
If FL can walk away from Casinomeister, they can walk away from the players. And if casinos can walk away from the players...
Well there is the hope that eCOGRA will pull their seal - that would be something. Maybe I am too pessimistic.
Stanford
Those are strong points, Stanford. Am I reading too much into it to think you might ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dominique at April 10, 2007, 3:36 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dc9999
Dominique: You can try to pretend that it's "business as usual" in the online gambling universe - because we all know you make (or MADE) a good living as an online casino "shill" ...er..."affiliate"...
I will have DEFINITIVE numbers for you as of May 1 (through a Reuters source),,but to whet your appetite until that time....here's a blurb from Aaron Todd (from "Gambling Gurus"..)
The sudden lack of options for American gamblers is a huge sea change in just a week's time. While Poker Stars lists 17 deposit methods, only one (ePassporte) still accepts U.S. customers. Full Tilt has also pulled several deposit options, with Click2Pay, ePassporte and MoneyGram cash transfers being the only remaining options for Americans.
Spin it any way you'd like Dominique,,,,,things have changed DRASTICALLY for US players.....then again, you won't admit that because you need folks to think that all i... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Stanford at April 10, 2007, 3:04 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
It looks like the end to me as well. I agree with the poster that Casinomeister has done all he can. But....
Fortune Lounge is going down a path that would never have been tolerated in years past. And eCOGRA isn't doing anything about it. Yes, when Bushco is out we might have been able to pick up the pieces. But not if once solid casinos blatantly cheat players.
Many in the US want to carve out only poker and let the rest of the online gaming slide away. I would not be surprised if that isn't what happens. Why would I lobby for an industry that reneges on wagers?
If FL can walk away from Casinomeister, they can walk away from the players. And if casinos can walk away from the players...
Well there is the hope that eCOGRA will pull their seal - that would be something. Maybe I am too pessimistic.
Stanford
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| Posted by: dc9999 at April 10, 2007, 2:46 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Dominique: You can try to pretend that it's "business as usual" in the online gambling universe - because we all know you make (or MADE) a good living as an online casino "shill" ...er..."affiliate"...
I will have DEFINITIVE numbers for you as of May 1 (through a Reuters source),,but to whet your appetite until that time....here's a blurb from Aaron Todd (from "Gambling Gurus"..)
The sudden lack of options for American gamblers is a huge sea change in just a week's time. While Poker Stars lists 17 deposit methods, only one (ePassporte) still accepts U.S. customers. Full Tilt has also pulled several deposit options, with Click2Pay, ePassporte and MoneyGram cash transfers being the only remaining options for Americans.
Spin it any way you'd like Dominique,,,,,things have changed DRASTICALLY for US players.....then again, you won't admit that because you need folks to think that all is well - they can still play at numerous sites - an... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dc9999 at April 10, 2007, 12:52 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Simple math is all you really need in order to deduce that the ast majority of online casinos have called it quits (relative to accepting US gamblers) since the US legislation went into effect.
Tally up the ast number of sites that flew under the Playtech, Boss Media, Cryptologic, and RTG flags that have since gone kaput in the US market- not to mention the numerous Microgaming and proprietary sites that have exited the US market - and you'll see the numbers are staggering.
And beyond the quantitative analysis,,,take a look at the constant refrain of MAJOR payment problems, Neteller going south, the marked decline of player postings at sites like these, RTG running and hiding etc etc. and any sane and logical individual can clearly ascertain that it's far from "business as usual" in the online gaming universe.
Sorry Dominique but the online gambling landscape is changing BIG TIME,,,,and thankfully I say! The US players - and soon most EU players - will find out... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dc9999 at April 9, 2007, 8:05 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Hey kauphy....My "boat" hasn't been sunk...far from it...
Not when over 90% of the online casinos can no longer do business in the US!
To the folks out there that seem to have lost their grip on the current reality: HERE IS A FACT FOR YOU TO DIGEST......the number of online casinos that are now SHUT DOWN to US players FAR EXCEEDS those that remain open.....
And lets not forget that some of the most prominent casino software platform operators like Playtech, Cryptologic, and Boss Media are COMPLETELY out of the US market. The rogues known as RTG have ery few affiliates left (even fewer when you consider only a handful are even borderline reputable..) and even Microgaming is reeling big time.
Moreover look at the British owned entities and see how their stocks have plummeted!
Yeah, my boat is sinking online gambling is as "robust" as ever...
Have another pint - or five - and call me in the morning when - and if - you sob... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: kauphy at April 9, 2007, 5:54 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by johnnyvegass
I can send u her website info if u like, shes ery good at helping people who have gambling problems
it seems to me that your the one with the promble. maybe your wife needs to look at whats wrong with you before she trys to help anyone eals. you seem to want to try to tell people how to spend thier money and when we don,t listen you fall back on name calling. why don,t you grow up and get a life. i,am a grown up and make my own money and will spend it anyway i want weather its on-line or land based it sounds like maybe your working for the goverment the way your sounding off. again i say go get a life or maybe you should make a appointment with your wife.
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| Posted by: kauphy at April 9, 2007, 5:34 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dc9999
My fellow Americans...
PLEASE do yourselves a favor and STOP thinking that you will get paid for winnings you've accrued over the past few months at ANY online casino!
It's quite obvious the whole bloody lot of them (to quote my British friends) are taking advantage of the US online gaming laws, and WILL BE SCREWING ALL OF US ROYALLY!!! In other words: your winnings have been permanently absconded and you're out of luck...
Yes its a bitter pill to swallow, but hopefully a new era will be upon us in the near future, where REPUTABLE and LICENSED (and I don't mean through jokes like ECogra and Con-a-wacky) internet casinos can be enjoyed by all.
Look, I too am out big bucks courtesy of the crooks collectively known as RTG and the Crystal Palace Gaming Group,,,but it's time to face the facts and move on.
No amount of carping or PAB's is going to change the current environment we find ourselves in...
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| Posted by: Da_Gambla at April 9, 2007, 6:33 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
All of that doom & gloom would certainly feel more real to me if it weren't for one small factor: all of the major players in online gaming still have huge ested stakes in customers from many other countries. So, whatever the percentage of loss is from the US, the percentage that fills out the 100% mark are all still allowed to gamble at those sites. I don't feel like the casinos who want to remain (once the smoke has cleared) will ever openly screw over players, even ones from the US.
I mean, I do understand where you're coming from... I've thought many times that if times got rough enough, some of these operations will not only turn rogue, but will close down and run with everything currently in their bank. But that isn't happening right now... all the payment troubles, and the bulk of the PAB's going out, involve US players. That tells me that for now, the top casinos are trying to salvage their business models and survive into the future. Then factor in that a few of the players are t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dc9999 at April 9, 2007, 2:15 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
I would opine that the US market loss to online casinos greatly exceeds 50%.
And don't underestimate the ramifications the US legislation had on the "old school" approach online casinos took toward their customer base. Namely - we'll confuse the hell out of you with ridiculuous T&C's and bonus clauses - and screw you whenever we damned well please! (and we'll have bogus "watchdogs" like eCogra and Kahniwake to lend an air of legitimacy to those gambling addicts who want to believe they're being protected..)
Also...for you die hards out there still living in fantasy land with the retorts that "there are still many above board options out there" for US based players - I say "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?"
Playtech, Boss Media, Cryptologic et al. have said BYE BYE to the US market, and the former juggernaut in the industry - Microgaming - is seeing even their top casino groups struggle to pay players in a timely fashion. That does not bode ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: recruit at April 7, 2007, 10:00 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
.[/quote]
If you are owed by a reputable place, just sit still and the money will come eventually. If you can't wait for winnings, don't play.
I agree 100%....I read all the posts about how banks are saying "This check is no good....." but I have yet to read a post from anyone who got a check from a REPUTABLE casino, deposited it, and then had it returned for NSF, or any other reason. The casinos clearly tell you, "Do not attempt to "cash" these checks, but rather deposit them as you would normally...." and they will clear. (Just as in the case of Frenchie in a similar post...she presented the check at her bank and was told it was "rubber" but upon further investigation she posted a few days later, that the check WAS in fact "good")
This goes back to "Gambling 101"...don't wager more than you can afford to lose. In other words, if it's going to completely devestate your financial picture if you have to wait 45 d... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dominique at April 7, 2007, 4:38 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Mousey
I would love to see some stats from the casinos and from affiliates on how many players they've lost.
The casinos welcome our deposits, but don't warn players that it might take weeks or months to receive a withdrawal. Granted, few ever withdraw, but players should all be made aware of the situation. (Ewallet withdrawals are faster, but I worry that they will pull an armadillo and simple curl up and shut players out, leaving more US players with funds in limbo.)
US players? Probably 50%.
Actually the casinos don't know from one day to the next whether they will be able to pay out that day. It's a cat and mouse game ( no pun intended ).
A payment route that works one day may be blocked by the US the next day. You just never know. If you are owed by a reputable place, just sit still and the money will come eventually. If you can't wait for winnings, don't play.
Many of the casinos that worry about thei... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Mousey at April 7, 2007, 1:15 pm | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
I would love to see some stats from the casinos and from affiliates on how many players they've lost.
I worry about EZBoard (etc.) forums and their players, because it seems the current cash out problems are being downplayed -- and this is an awful situation for new players right now. And players who are not following this DoJ s. Online Gambling saga can also be rudely awakened when they try to cash out. (Like tanergirl -- in another thread -- who was depositing as usual with her card, and didn't understand the cash out problems.) There are too many players out there who simply are not fully aware of what's happening, continue to play, then are astounded and irate when it takes 3 months (or more) of jumping through hoops to receive a withdrawal. Thus, I often quote the CM's advice for players to just stop playing for now.
The casinos welcome our deposits, but don't warn players that it might take weeks or months to receive a withdrawal. Granted, few ever withdraw, but players shoul... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Da_Gambla at April 7, 2007, 11:35 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by I BEEN THERE
Nope ! I got it. Perhaps it is just in the wrong place.
Erm...... I'm just supposing here that it would be a huge waste of time to point out that what you are saying here was not said in any of the other posts you offered on this thread... yeah, I thought so...
Quote: Originally Posted by I BEEN THERE
( rants & raves maybe is where it should be )or the joke column. Either way, it was your story ( fact or fiction ). You are correct, I was just one of many that read this forum. I selected the "USA It's all over " and stumbled upon the whole thing.
Sorry to have said a thing pertaining to the Johnny story when I came to read about the US "It's all over thread " , I most definitely knew better !
I disagree. My first offering to this thread was a response to a post IN this thread, and my second one was another response, so they do in fact belong in this thread. They would make... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: I BEEN THERE at April 7, 2007, 7:16 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
Actually mon friend, you missed THE WHOLE THING.
Nope ! I got it. Perhaps it is just in the wrong place. ( rants & raves maybe is where it should be )or the joke column. Either way, it was your story ( fact or fiction ). You are correct, I was just one of many that read this forum. I selected the "USA It's all over " and stumbled upon the whole thing.
Sorry to have said a thing pertaining to the Johnny story when I came to read about the US "It's all over thread " , I most definitely knew better !
As for the ass sniffing dogs. They represent the American Gov't which have their noses in all our asses at the moment ~! FACT !!!
I BEEN THERE
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| Posted by: Da_Gambla at April 7, 2007, 6:50 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by I BEEN THERE
I didn't miss a thing. It was personal both ways.
You are assuming you know the mindset of the author, which could be easily realized if the author is posting facts or opinions. On the other hand, if they are posting SATIRE, you would be foolish for trying to read that far into it. Are all horror writers closet serial killers? I think not. It's an outlet to write.
Actually mon friend, you missed THE WHOLE THING.
There was nothing personal about it. If you want me to get personal, I can go there. I just chose to make fun with someone's quite apparent personality quirks. I call it 'bi-polar', but whatever. Comedians make money all day long for making fun of personalities. Some people actually find human nature quirks or flaws humorous. If you don't, then I understand your inability to iew the post as designed by me, and instead are trying to find something 'real' or tangible to argue about. : yawn :
So what... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Da_Gambla at April 7, 2007, 6:40 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by I BEEN THERE
Way too much detail and assumption.
There was 0 assumption. It's satire. Fabrication. Ever been to a movie? They're not real either.
If you absolutely MUST press an author for their motivation, well here you go... I've had to plow through JV's bullshite posts day after day.. he intrudes on many threads, offering nothing but JV's iew of the world. He builds himself up to be someone important, knowledgeable, credible. But when he lets his guard down, he shows his true colors (as is usually the case with anyone who is not who they portray themselves as - another facet of the internet one must assume). He is obviously a hypocrite, you know the type... do as I say, not as I do... a preacher in a false cloak. Now all of that is FACT layed out by Johnny himself in his postings. What I did was think... what if Johnny is actually 180 degrees from his persona he wants us to believe? I then thought, why not take 180 degrees and EXAGGERAT... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: catrina m at April 7, 2007, 6:33 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
YOWZA
Quote: Originally Posted by I BEEN THERE
WOW ~! Such detail. Makes one wonder if this is the story of your own life rather than a dig at ol' Johnny. Way too much detail and assumption.
Sadly, I get where most posters are coming from. The US players want assurance. The affiliates want to continue to see players play = $. And the ones still playing want everyone to stop whining but wait they are all slowly getting their own turns, China, Canada etc...
My own personal opinion is stupidity is a strong word but close enough to the truth when it comes to the far riskier gamble one makes to play online these days. Any forum, anywhere has hundreds of bad stories regarding problems of some sort. DC was correct, it is all over. There is no regulation and no protection against bad site(s). Poker= 75%luck the other 20% is the power of the bet and let us not forget the last 5% is the guarantee of the online site rake.(sarcasm but close in my opinion ) Decent online c... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: I BEEN THERE at April 7, 2007, 6:31 am | | Topic: US PLAYERS: It's all over - for now Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
You missed the boat on this one....JohnBoy had that coming ...
I didn't miss a thing. It was personal both ways. However, my point was regarding the stupidity and when it comes to that many of us have "missed the boat". Their ships are sailing just fine and yet just look at the post and all the players begging for lifejackets. There are warning signs all over and yet daily there are new posts about someone else walking the plank.
I BEEN THERE
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