| Posted by: lnspin at June 6, 2007, 9:56 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by SKUNX
You know back in the day when some of my relatives in NY ran a brick op in Astoria they would let some suckers win cause the best thing that can happen to any of us that work in the industry is when a small player wins you can turn a $10 bettor into a $1000 degenarate just by giving a little and people beware because thats what I do and im damn good at it !!!!
Funny i was from astoria till ery recently and used to own a brick op on Steinway St . We probably know each other from the neighborhood .
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| Posted by: Westland Bowl at June 6, 2007, 8:52 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
If the online casino supposedly already has a house edge in all their games, then why are they doing all of this manipulation of a player's game?
When I play in an online casino I expect that the cards drawn and the win/loss outcomes are truly random, not affected by the cumulative winning or losing of other players, just like in a live casino.
One problem with online casinos that I see and have already posted several times over the past two years, is that you CAN'T SEE THE CARDS in an online casino... you can't see if manipulation is occurring during your session(s). I suggest independent third party card-dealing operation to be embedded into the casino's software for a fairer game.
All of this manipulation by online casinos indicates to me that there are actually SOME players who are consistently winning at a negative expectation game and that can only be if the casino's RNG isn't really all that random. Whether it's Cipher's software or not, I don't know but the Bodog... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: phynqster at June 6, 2007, 7:50 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Because I have posted on this thread and have agreed with you many times , I have to post here and say "In the years I dealt with RTG, I never found their games to ever be rigged or unfair for reason. There was a time it was found that a slot was not paying off acuratley and they gave me a list of players who had played the game and to refund them the lost money.
There will always be fault, when you consider that the games are programed by HUMANS, so nothing we ever be 100% random, it will be what I think and that is as close as possible to giving you a fair and accurate GAME.
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| Posted by: SKUNX at June 6, 2007, 5:42 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
I would be of breach of contract myself if I post more but like ive said it over and over I just try to let people know what goes on behind the curtains sometimes.
But think of this most RTGs mess with your terms and conditions , mess with your bonus , your payout etc
what makes you think they wont mess with your game a bit...?
Wheres Hastings ? what happened to Montana pulling out overnight ??
And yes you are right pyschological tactitcs are used every day all day long pretty much.
Dont be amazed we are all in this to make money as a player or as the house.
RTG is a lose cannon , I love working / playing for RTGs been doing it for many years but I am fully aware sometimes the job gets dirty ..now but can you answer some of these questions for me?
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 6, 2007, 8:37 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by SKUNX
You dont .. you will lose no matter how many people cosign with you.
Deal with it and move on , thats the sad truth.
When have you ever heard of a player actually winning a legal case against an RTG casino ??
Legally true, no doubt, but if the sort of rigging suggested here could be proved the negative publicity would be powerful enough to seriously damage RTG.
Though, to be honest, this thread adds nothing new. RTG asking which games to make "beatable", whatever that's supposed to mean with negative expectation games, would be interesting - but without any details it's little more than gossip (actually it just sounds like PR BS).
Casino software balancing out winners and losers to smooth cash flow or increase excitement (read: encourage compulsive behaviour with more dramatic winning/losing streaks) is the old conspiracy theory. I must admit I tend to think it might be the reality, th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SKUNX at June 5, 2007, 8:46 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
You dont .. you will lose no matter how many people cosign with you.
Deal with it and move on , thats the sad truth.
When have you ever heard of a player actually winning a legal case against an RTG casino ??
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| Posted by: gobucs at June 5, 2007, 7:33 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandMaster
In other words, the software was rigged. If the software is fair, then the results of one set of players will not affect the others.
This is what I've been saying the whole time. Call it what you want, if the cards do not fall truly random, if they are generated based on anything at all, whether it be other palers winning/losing, or whatever, it's cheating.
If they're cheating, how do we sue the pants off these bastards?
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at June 4, 2007, 9:41 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Well, if RTG software really is rigged in some way to exert such broad scale control over what should be unconnected random game events, they had better start banning the Brits, not the Dutch.
We have had "Fruit Machines" like this for years, long before RTG ever existed. Fruit Machines, despite a 25% to 30% house edge, were regularly hammered because of the "tells" in the non-random software. Novice players paid for this with play nearer to a 60% house edge (unless they got lucky and/or played so long they got the whole cycle).
Just as in phynqster's earlier employment, these pro players who watched machines for the cycle "tells" while the novice played were referred to as "sharks", and this lead to the erb "to shark", as applied to a Fruit Machine, or bank of machines.
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| Posted by: GrandMaster at June 4, 2007, 9:32 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by phynqster
I was at a casino where the employes wouled play with "real" money in the casino. I had to explain that one reason players winning more often than it seemed they should, was that the employees were losing SO MUCH money and playing so badly, the software would compensate and have more winners than normal.
In other words, the software was rigged. If the software is fair, then the results of one set of players will not affect the others.
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| Posted by: SKUNX at June 4, 2007, 9:19 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
I agree 100% with Phynqster and we have some common employment places in the past so ive seen it too.
Trust me I lost $150k of real money one night ( told you guys i was a gambler ) lol
anyways and then the tables got " loose" .
ps. I got suspended for a day .. damn that Blackjack
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| Posted by: phynqster at June 4, 2007, 1:32 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
Perhaps the infamous "cipher" system really DOES work in some RTG Blackjack games, as it can identify by "trend analysis" the circumstances and direction of the "cheat switch".
I agree with this 100% except the cheat switch. The operator can not turn it on and off, but it does all balance in the end.
I was at a casino where the employes wouled play with "real" money in the casino. I had to explain that one reason players winning more often than it seemed they should, was that the employees were losing SO MUCH money and playing so badly, the software would compensate and have more winners than normal. This was not RTG software, but I am pretty sure they all must work the same way.
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| Posted by: phynqster at June 4, 2007, 1:24 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
I had a player who won their max win, 1200, but still wanted to play and could not get their credit card through so decided to play the 1200 and lost everything back.
With this customer I actually gave her the 1200 back, because in this case she was not gambling and could not win money and only lose. She was so happy she decided to become a 500 depositer instead of 100 so her max cash out was bigger. Last I saw from her was a 500 deposit on average of of 5 nights a week and never 1 single cash out, over a 2 year period.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at June 4, 2007, 1:23 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by phynqster
"but not only that they ASK YOU which games you want to be able to be the most easily beatble games so you may market your casino on that note."
Sorry guy, I agree with most of what you say about the industry, but this statement is something I have never seen or been privie to. I have the CEO on my instant messenger and have spoken with him as guys have been winning over 5 and 6 figuries and he could not do anything to stop the run. Yes we would knock the player off line for a few minutes or change the number of decks, but we could not change the edge.
I do have a theroy though, if the house edge is set to say 2%, in hands won /loss not money won. And you have ery good players playing optimal stratagy playing 1 dollar a hand, and loosing at only a 1% rate,and playing many hands. Than you have a player who is playing 1k per hand he may be loosing at a 4% rate to even out the total house EV to the 2%.
So it would go... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: lojo at June 4, 2007, 12:47 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
I've done something like that many times, Skunx. Mainly at RTG, I'll meet the wagering requirements and instead of actually cashing out the 10x max I'll ask to have it manually redeposited and apply another coupon. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
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| Posted by: SKUNX at June 4, 2007, 12:33 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
All I have to say is that theres a sucker born every minute and i have many a times been that sucker.. I think anybody thats been gambling for years has been at some point .
I will stay with my post that explains how some players dont play to win .. because ive seen them myself... tell me XXXX I dont want to cashout too much of a hassle cant I just leave it in there and anybody thats been around in the industry knows that there are many customers like this.
Its a gut sell because you chase the dragon why when people win $5000 when they deposited $100 dont cashout? ... because of their " gut " feeling that they can win more .
Thanks for your response I enjoyed this debate.
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| Posted by: casinocide at June 3, 2007, 11:35 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
The way it was worded originally made it sound like you were just after out of control compulsives, which is, whether your strategy or not, I beleive what most web casinos try to do to at least some degree. I don't have much respect for this industry. That said I'm no preacher, much less a saint, so even though I iew gambling as a sort of dirty ice-based trade I certainly have no mandate to call out those who do it (run casinos) for a living or who profit from it, and I don't think anyone else really has a right to tell those who choose it as their profession to go do something else either. Still there are lines even you guys should draw. Actively going after people with mental illnesses is not ok even in this biz.
I don't feel bad about taking casinos for a ride or two and I don't feel bad when casinos take me for one either. That's because we're both well informed, we understand the rules of the game, and we're worthy adversaries for each other. The case of casinos and most of their patrons... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SKUNX at June 3, 2007, 5:33 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
TO QUOTE CASINOCIDE What a wonderfully principled piece of self adulation that is. Very accurate too, in my estimation. How many people here, especially those directly involved in the industry on the supply side, agree with this? How about you CM? Is this type of statement representative of all the folks who run web casinos and affiliate sites? If not, why don't you all explain to me how your philosophy materially differs from that above mentioned.
See ill let you in on my OWN point of iew its gotten me places in the industry and I can now afford to pick my jobs but heres the deal with casinos..or gambling
In most cases Im selling you a dream that with $20 youll be able to win thousands of $$$ which is possible by all means but the odds are in the houses favor of course , now when an astute operator like 32red etc have a big jackpot winner they market it till tommorow for 2 reasons .
1. they have to encourage people to deposit back with them to build up the pot
2. You can ask a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: tennis_balls at June 3, 2007, 5:53 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by liquidsoap
Everyone makes mistakes, people are not writing an essay.
Besides, its easier to read mistakes like accept/except and loser/looser then it is to read people who do not use capital letters.
SOAPY, THAT'S ENTIRELY UNEXCEPTABLE!
I ALWAYS NEW YOU WERE A LOOSER!
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| Posted by: gobucs at June 3, 2007, 5:09 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
When I asked Bodog for the 1000th time about any recent tests done on their software to assure fairness, they finally admitted that there had not been any testing since 2005! When I asked how that could be possible, they disabled my account. Probably did me a favor, but it seemed like customer service was great until I started asking questions.
Is this a lawless industry or what? In a multi-billion dollar industry that hinges on software that could easily be manipulated by people and/or computers located overseas; is there no protection for the player? Am I helpless because I'm in the US? Do these cheaters answer to noone?
So can anyone tell me where a US player can find a fair game of Blackjack online? I love the game, but I'm starting to think I'll never find a fair game online.
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| Posted by: liquidsoap at June 2, 2007, 10:33 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by happygobrokey
kasinoking, the other day, brought up the homophone annoyance of confusing loser/looser, and i have to say that confusing accept/except is a much more massive mistake (like my little alliteration?). they are almost opposites; accept means to welcome or embrace, where except means to leave out or exclude.
so just except it, your a looser man i kill me sometimes
Everyone makes mistakes, people are not writing an essay.
Besides, its easier to read mistakes like accept/except and loser/looser then it is to read people who do not use capital letters. I used to type like that until I learned how unreadable it actually was.
Quote: Originally Posted by happygobrokey
tencard & thetic: using lowercase and committing spelling errors are a speed issue
Sorry I did not realize it took that long to hit shift.
On a side note, I did fairly well at bodogs blackjack.
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| Posted by: casinocide at June 2, 2007, 9:23 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
You know back in the day when some of my relatives in NY ran a brick op in Astoria they would let some suckers win cause the best thing that can happen to any of us that work in the industry is when a small player wins you can turn a $10 bettor into a $1000 degenarate just by giving a little and people beware because thats what I do and im damn good at it !!!!
What a wonderfully principled piece of self adulation that is. Very accurate too, in my estimation. How many people here, especially those directly involved in the industry on the supply side, agree with this? How about you CM? Is this type of statement representative of all the folks who run web casinos and affiliate sites? If not, why don't you all explain to me how your philosophy materially differs from that above mentioned. Try not to get too euphamistic either. A "quaint little two story in need of some good ole T.L.C" is one way to describe a Woodward Ave crack house, but it ain't gonna fool the lo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: phynqster at June 2, 2007, 8:28 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
You made me laugh out loud at that post. You are 100% right. That is why the high bonus casinos work, they make a 10.00 per hand player into a 100.00 per hand player because of the big bonus.
My favorite part of on line gaming is everyone plays till they cash out or loose their money. I have only seen a ery small % that leave the money in their account till they hit certain limits.
Remember I do not play or manage anymore, I just enjoy observing
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| Posted by: SKUNX at June 2, 2007, 5:48 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Phynqster / Listen we are all in the business to make money either as a player or as a casino rep , and the house always win thats all I can say.
Some can say they beat the house .. but like a close family friend said once " the house doesnt beat the player it gives him the oppurtunity to beat himself "
This is why I have a job and its a good one I cant complaint.
I dont play at Bodog honestly because I just cant seem to beat them and I do not feel comfortable depositing there i feel like im giving my money away .
You know back in the day when some of my relatives in NY ran a brick op in Astoria they would let some suckers win cause the best thing that can happen to any of us that work in the industry is when a small player wins you can turn a $10 bettor into a $1000 degenarate just by giving a little and people beware because thats what I do and im damn good at it !!!!
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| Posted by: gobucs at June 2, 2007, 5:26 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Hey Happy, I agree! To reshuffle after every hand should be a good thing. That's one aspect of my concerns. For the dealer to routinely win 10+ hands in a row at least once a night when the dealer reshuffles the cards after every hand, makes it even harder to believe. I've contacted The Wiz (no response)
Pokeraddict, In fact I have given back the 25K, twice over, but that's not what I'm complaining about. In the history of this thread I've never mentioned how much I've lost. What my concerns pertain to are the patterns that shouldn't exist in a random world, and unbelievable, yet common number of hands the house wins in a row, and the obvious delay in the turn cards. It has felt for sometime now, exactly as Happy described. I.e. "someone is controlling the session". This is not about a bad session, but about a six month streak of house dominance, where irtually every decision I make is wrong, and the miracle suck-out is common place for the dealer. The problem is not that I lost, bu... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: phynqster at June 1, 2007, 9:09 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
"but not only that they ASK YOU which games you want to be able to be the most easily beatble games so you may market your casino on that note."
Sorry guy, I agree with most of what you say about the industry, but this statement is something I have never seen or been privie to. I have the CEO on my instant messenger and have spoken with him as guys have been winning over 5 and 6 figuries and he could not do anything to stop the run. Yes we would knock the player off line for a few minutes or change the number of decks, but we could not change the edge.
I do have a theroy though, if the house edge is set to say 2%, in hands won /loss not money won. And you have ery good players playing optimal stratagy playing 1 dollar a hand, and loosing at only a 1% rate,and playing many hands. Than you have a player who is playing 1k per hand he may be loosing at a 4% rate to even out the total house EV to the 2%.
So it would go to figure a player winning 25k in a short period of t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SKUNX at June 1, 2007, 8:45 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
TO QUOTE PHYNQSTER /Skunk-- The two of us have watched players playing on line for large wagers at the same time. We have seen one player loose his entire bankroll, while another player playing at the same time beat us for over 20k. Over the outcome at the end of the month and millions of hands have been played, the win % /house edge is always fractionally the same.[/quote]
Hey Phynqster hope all is well , I do agree we have both sat down and watched guys take us for a ride and some bust in minutes but you know that RTG payouts can be changed I do know for a fact that not only in switching the number of decks ( actually in a meeting with the CEO of RTG he instructed is to set the decks at 6 , 1 or 255 = infinte in the software)
but not only that they ASK YOU which games you want to be able to be the most easily beatble games so you may market your casino on that note.
PS. For a poster that Im not gonna bother to check his name I have worked for the largest RTG groups for years... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: pokeraddict at June 1, 2007, 5:41 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
The fact you have beat a -EV game is not relevent. Actually, maybe it is. If you added up your wins and deducted your losses how many bets per 100 hands are you up? Unless you gave back the $25,000 then it will be a positive number. Then are you complaining because you have not won enough lately but are still up on a - EV game?
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| Posted by: happygobrokey at June 1, 2007, 5:24 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
an example then.
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/ho...lator-pop.html
H17, split only once, DAS, double any two, no draw on split aces, dealer peeks, no surrender, ONE DECK: HA=0.03748%
H17, split only once, DAS, double any two, no draw on split aces, dealer peeks, no surrender, TWO DECKS: HA=0.42444%
ditto above but with FOUR DECKS: HA=0.60838%
ditto above but with EIGHT DECKS: HA=0.69928%
also a quote from same page:
"Methodology: The "optimal results" are based on perfect composition dependent strategy and the dealer shuffling after every hand, which benefits the player." [bolded italics added]
i think the lower number of decks and the shuffling every hand makes a (good) difference to the game. rtg being able to change the # decks in play on the fly as phynqster said does nothing but hurt the casino. the majority of blackjack games online are eight-deck anyway, and anything over eight decks ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: gobucs at June 1, 2007, 4:51 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
When I said "the number of decks would be deemed somewhat irrelevant in most cases" that's what I meant. I'm not proposing no difference because of number of decks used, only that the impact is reduced dramatically by a reshuffle after every hand.
My last 50 hands:
L,P,L,L,L,L,W,W,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,W,L,L, P,L,P,P,L,W,L,W,W,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,W,L,W,L,L,W,W,W
I know I'm going to hear that 50 hands are not nearly enough to judge, and I agree. The sad thing is that this is not an unusual chain of events. This streak began when I increased my wager from $1 to $25. This has become quite predictable. I know to just try to sneak in a larger bet here and there rather than try to keep the wager increased, because the house is guaranteed to streak and suck the money out of me in record time.
Let me clarify one thing; I'm not a disgruntled player who has lost a boat load of money. Actually, when I first started playing on Bodog, I cashed out 25K in a one week period, all from Bl... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: pokeraddict at June 1, 2007, 2:01 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
The OP also needs to keep in mind he is playing a -EV game and cannot expect to win over the long term no matter what without a bonus. Also as mentioned the number of hands you have played are not anywhere near enough to be statiscally useful.
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| Posted by: phynqster at June 1, 2007, 12:55 am | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
The only thing the casino operator can do is control the number of decks being played. Eventhough it reshuffles after every deal it still has a little effect. When I left the bussiness, the RTG blackjack could be from 1 to 277 decks, and could be changed on the fly.
Skunk-- The two of us have watched players playing on line for large wagers at the same time. We have seen one player loose his entire bankroll, while another player playing at the same time beat us for over 20k. Over the outcome at the end of the month and millions of hands have been played, the win % /house edge is always fractionally the same.
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| Posted by: thelawnet at May 31, 2007, 10:46 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
RTG operators can select slot payouts. I believe they have choices of a few specific levels such as 95%, 92%, etc. I have not seen any clear evidence of RTG blackjack being unfair, such as posts by RTG employees. In fact, one ex-employee posted that the games are indeed fair -- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/152619-post37.html .
I'd recommend emailing the records of 100's of thousands of hands to Wizard of Odds. He is the most qualified person to investigate, as he has experience with auditing game results to confirm fair play. I suspect that he will investigate and take the complaint seriously, given that Bodog is the only casino he promotes.
Except this isn't a serious complaint. 3 winning hands in 30 is not even close to notable and ague suggestions of having lost more than winning without any data, proper sampling, or anything else, is just another player who just had a bad run.
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| Posted by: aka23 at May 31, 2007, 8:52 pm | | Topic: Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by casinocide
Sorry guys I'm just sitting here somewhat in disbeleif. I was reading this thread and I got the picture we were talking about Blackjack. Then someone who claims to be an employee of RTG comes out implying that RTG systematically cheats it's players by rigging it's blackjack games and thereafter another poster concurrs that this sounds reasonable. Can someone here please tell me what I'm missing? Is the employee just talking about slots??
RTG operators can select slot payouts. I believe they have choices of a few specific levels such as 95%, 92%, etc. I have not seen any clear evidence of RTG blackjack being unfair, such as posts by RTG employees. In fact, one ex-employee posted that the games are indeed fair -- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/152619-post37.html .
Quote: Originally Posted by gobucks
For the rest... Streaky is one thing, I'm talking about absurdity. I have dozens of records from Bodog BJ session... | | Read Entire Entry |
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