| Posted by: aka23 at December 30, 2007, 10:48 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
Well now lets just let the posts stand for themselves as my statement in #59 says what it says and not what you posted it said......GO TITANS
I interpret the statement as meaning you would PM me regardless of the result of talking to your legal council. So am I to believe your legal council thought it would be a bad idea to give numbers or any kind of data to support your claim in a private PM. But, he has no problem with you repeatedly saying you have proof on a large public forum, posting email screenshots which indicate who did the review, or making odd and well-publicized bets about rigged software?
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
and I am sure you will need the last word.
Which one of us wrote "end of discussion for moi!", then continued posting because he needed to get the last word?
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 30, 2007, 10:24 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Well now lets just let the posts stand for themselves as my statement in #59 says what it says and not what you posted it said and unless I am hallucinating you seem to be consistently contradicting yourself but you win and I am sure you will need the last word. It is all yours,SHALOM. Once again, the hubris!.....GO TITANS
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 30, 2007, 10:11 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
Oh really?
A sreenshot of your email subject headers is not what I meant by "specific numbers". Readers of the forum already know you hired Elliot to review your data, as you made a point of asking to hire him in an earlier post of this thread, rather than by private message or email.
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 30, 2007, 10:06 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
You mind showing me that specific statement I made!
I am referring to post #59 of the thread. I wrote:
"If you have "proof", I'd certainly be interested be interested to see it. If you post specific numbers (with or without names), I'll tell you the chance of the results occurring randomly..."
You replied:
"...Will consult my legal counsel and PM you!"
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 30, 2007, 9:33 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
My proposed bet has the same intention. If the ratio of player to dealer 2-card 20s is abnormal, then either the number of dealer 20s or the number of player 20s will be statistically abnormal, possibly both. Phrased in terms like I proposed, the test will truly show if there is something non-random going on with player or dealer 20s. The original terms were more ambiguous, would be slightly biased in favor of your bet with typical card display on BJ rules, and would be far more difficult to carry out. Think about how many sets of 10,000 hands would need to be done for statistically significant results.
The whole concept is bizarre. After I explained that reshuffling after each hand reduces house edge for the basic strategy player, you proposed that we bet at least $10,000 on the ratios of 20s with unclear software that shuffles after each hand. When I seemed interested in carrying out the bet with specific conditions, you kept mentioning reas... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 30, 2007, 8:28 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
My proposed bet has the same intention. If the ratio of player to dealer 2-card 20s is abnormal, then either the number of dealer 20s or the number of player 20s will be statistically abnormal, possibly both. Phrased in terms like I proposed, the test will truly show if there is something non-random going on with player or dealer 20s. The original terms were more ambiguous, would be slightly biased in favor of your bet with typical card display on BJ rules, and would be far more difficult to carry out. Think about how many sets of 10,000 hands would need to be done for statistically significant results.
The whole concept is bizarre. After I explained that reshuffling after each hand reduces house edge for the basic strategy player, you proposed that we bet at least $10,000 on the ratios of 20s with unclear software that shuffles after each hand. When I seemed interested in carrying out the bet with specific conditions, you kept mentioning reas... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 30, 2007, 8:19 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
My proposed bet has the same intention. If the ratio of player to dealer 2-card 20s is abnormal, then either the number of dealer 20s or the number of player 20s will be statistically abnormal, possibly both. Phrased in terms like I proposed, the test will truly show if there is something non-random going on with player or dealer 20s. The original terms were more ambiguous, would be slightly biased in favor of your bet with typical card display on BJ rules, and would be far more difficult to carry out. Think about how many sets of 10,000 hands would need to be done for statistically significant results.
The whole concept is bizarre. After I explained that reshuffling after each hand reduces house edge for the basic strategy player, you proposed that we bet at least $10,000 on the ratios of 20s with unclear software that shuffles after each hand. When I seemed interested in carrying out the bet with specific conditions, you kept mentioning reas... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: aka23 at December 30, 2007, 4:24 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
He changed the whole intention of the proposed bet, just refuse the proposition if you were not comfortable with it,simple enough!.....funny thing is a casino exec. and software writer understood exactly what I may or may not have proven.... Gary Watson is indirectly correct ("none of it matters")....these stats guys are master manipulators and that is the kindest thing I can say....My audit and documentation is now on its way to a much higher authority than this forum and let the chips and truth fall where they may.........end of discussion for moi!.....oh the hubris!!
My proposed bet has the same intention. If the ratio of player to dealer 2-card 20s is abnormal, then either the number of dealer 20s or the number of player 20s will be statistically abnormal, possibly both. Phrased in terms like I proposed, the test will truly show if there is something non-random going on with player or dealer 20s. The original terms were more a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 30, 2007, 3:01 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
Thanks for clarifying.. I was
He changed the whole intention of the proposed bet, just refuse the proposition if you were not comfortable with it,simple enough!.....funny thing is a casino exec. and software writer understood exactly what I may or may not have proven.... Gary Watson is indirectly correct ("none of it matters")....these stats guys are master manipulators and that is the kindest thing I can say....My audit and documentation is now on its way to a much higher authority than this forum and let the chips and truth fall where they may.........end of discussion for moi!.....oh the hubris!!
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 30, 2007, 2:02 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
aka23
Please explain, because if you can get different results per bet size we are looking at something other than RNG, aren't we?
I was referring to Nash's proposed $10k bet, not bet size per hand. With a large sum like that, I'd wouldn't want to lose simply because my bet was on the wrong side of ariance. I'd insist on a large number of standard deviations from expected, such that there would be little chance of the results occurring in a truly random distribution. And if the results did occur, it would more conclusively show non-random software. I wouldn't have such a requirement for a smaller bet (against Nash, not bet size per hand).
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| Posted by: lojo at December 30, 2007, 1:07 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
I'd require fewer standard deviations for a smaller bet.
aka23
Please explain, because if you can get different results per bet size we are looking at something other than RNG, aren't we?
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| Posted by: lojo at December 30, 2007, 12:52 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
To be honest, I would LOVE to find out the *true* HA when it comes to them shuffling after every hand. Sure, you have the same odds/probabilities as if they didn't, but IMO it raises their advantage.
I know I'm getting up there in years, but didn't it NOT used to be this way? I seem to remember (I forget which software) online casinos that DIDN'T shuffle after every hand. Hell, the software would even pipe up when it was time and announce that they were shuffling!!
...was it Playtech?
I remember that too... what was it? There weren't enough cards left in the deck and it would bring on a new one, or shuffle if you could split... what the heck was it? It was before I played at all seriously online... Thanks for the memory... I can almost see the table (polaroid memory out of film)
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 30, 2007, 12:55 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by sparkz
agree with casino...
after today i have quit gambling..
was playing blackjack again and at 1st i was doing great... won a fair bit... but then started losing lots, played higher bets to win some back but lost and lost it all
blackjack is a ery nasty game in my opinion.. you can play low amounts for hours and win lots... but then when the losing streak kicks in you are tempted to double/triple bets until its all gone
reoccuring streaks is another issue I wish I could grasp...........maybe the explanation is that you play so many more hands per hour online than a B & M so therefore the streaks are more noticeable and occur quicker over time.....just do not know in my own mind the answer but the sometimes mathematical mind boggling streaks are there but is it an explainable perception issue that is normal and fair??????
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| Posted by: sparkz at December 30, 2007, 12:30 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
agree with casino...
after today i have quit gambling..
was playing blackjack again and at 1st i was doing great... won a fair bit... but then started losing lots, played higher bets to win some back but lost and lost it all
blackjack is a ery nasty game in my opinion.. you can play low amounts for hours and win lots... but then when the losing streak kicks in you are tempted to double/triple bets until its all gone
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| Posted by: casino at December 29, 2007, 11:40 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
i cant comment on sttistics but an interesting question might be, like a survey:
how many people on here (excluding casino related parties) have actually won anything at online BJ and remain winning?
Maybe a better question for asinos, is what % of your customers if any have actually won anything at online BJ?
The only thing payout percentages demonstrate is the the casinos arewnning consistently.
My experience of MG in particular, but not only them, says that to win anything at online blackjack would take some kind of miracle? I am happy to accept 10000$ of MG money to prove it, if I win it all goes to charity? If I lose, MG get to pay me back the money I have lost them in the past. Sounds fair?
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 11:36 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
Even a small 0.01% difference from the outcomes expected in a random distribution will be >4 standard deviations from expected, if you play enough hands. If a software isn't random, it should fail some type of statistical measure (not necessarily the ones we have discussed), being far outside the range of normal ariance.
I will respond later as I have one but I am peace out for now!
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 11:33 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Furthermore as I posted in another thread to make the above easier for some to understand:
A poster said he won $17K online playing BJ----I said WINNING DOES NOT EQUATE TO FAIR GAMING. MAYBE HE SHOULD HAVE WON $57237.69.........I am done for today, mind is exhausted and I have a hard time trying to keep up anyway!
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 29, 2007, 11:33 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
We are talking about 2 different issues...I am only concerned with actual totals or skewed results that favor the house but are within the wiggle room of expectation thus allowing the software to be declared statistically fair eventhough it may be statistically and consistently skewed (NUMEROUS OTHER WAYS ALSO BUT I ONLY USED ONE SIMPLE FACTOR) in the house's favor but still fair.......fool me once shame on you, twice still shame on you!
Even a small 0.01% difference from the outcomes expected in a random distribution will be >4 standard deviations from expected, if you play enough hands. If a software isn't random, it should fail some type of statistical measure (not necessarily the ones we have discussed), being far outside the range of normal ariance.
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 11:15 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
I'd bet that 2-card 20s, any 20s, or any other card combination would be within 4 standard deviations of expected. However, I would need to pick the software, or at least give a pool of a few well-known softwares to choose from.
We are talking about 2 different issues...I am only concerned with actual totals or skewed results that favor the house but are within the wiggle room of expectation thus allowing the software to be declared statistically fair eventhough it may be statistically and consistently skewed (NUMEROUS OTHER WAYS ALSO BUT I ONLY USED ONE SIMPLE FACTOR) in the house's favor but still fair.......fool me once shame on you, twice still shame on you!
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 29, 2007, 10:23 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
I guess you do not accept since you do not understand the bet and no you as an affiliate you would not be able to determine the casinos. They would be determined by a blind draw and new accounts if necessary opened. Reread my post and it says total number of 2 card 20's per session, really simple!
I'd bet that 2-card 20s, any 20s, or any other card combination would be within 4 standard deviations of expected. However, I would need to pick the software, or at least give a pool of a few well-known softwares to choose from.
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 10:14 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
Regarding your bet, If I can pick the software, I'd bet that rate of dealer 20s or player 20s will not be 4 standard deviations or greater from the expected rate. I'd require fewer standard deviations for a smaller bet.
I guess you do not accept since you do not understand the bet and no you as an affiliate you would not be able to determine the casinos. They would be determined by a blind draw and new accounts if necessary opened. Reread my post and it says total number of 2 card 20's per session, really simple!
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 29, 2007, 8:43 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
If only the logs files and recorded playcheck ideos I have supported this a la a 2-card 20's for the house and player ya know like tossing a coin......how many standard deviaiations over how many total hands does this have to be off............................................... .................................................. ...Wanna put your money where your stats are? I will..........10,000 hands per session,any MG,RTG or proprietary I have played software platform that reshuffles (casinos will be determined at commencement of play and there can be no prior contact with the casino regarding this proposition), 10,15 sessions you name it......you win if the total number of initial 2 card 20's for the player exceeds the dealer's in more than 25% of the 10000 hand sessions played (1 session =10000 hands dealt),no spliting 10's,lol,you lose otherwise and I will donate all winnings to charity in the event I win.....easy money for you stats guys that ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sparkz at December 29, 2007, 7:21 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
im not sure with this but some of the patterns that emerged were ery weird...
i had a bonus on a casino... so obviously i couldnt cash anything out until i had played a certain amount of times.
i played blackjack when i had nowhere near met my bonus requirements and i would win 9 out of 10 times... i got blackjack at 1 point 4 times in a row and even if i stuck on 12 its likely the dealer would bust.. i got to about 10x my original deposit
but then i went to some slot games and played through my bonus.. so i was about 15x my original deposit and could cashout the lot..
but then i went back to blackjack... and my luck had totally reversed... i stuck on 20 and it was likely he got 21... a few times i had blackjack and so did the dealer. until i lost the majority of it and realised i would not win anymore.
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| Posted by: lojo at December 29, 2007, 1:14 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Now the statits have their probables and possibles. But I assure you, a Deck, may not be proven in math. Not even 52 cards, and certainly not a "swing" that lands on the note sometimes to adjust for the house. It is statistically IMPOSSIBLE to make a fair blackjack game, even on the beast that ciphered the human genome, occur on a computer.
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 12:52 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by aka23
The standard way of listing house edge for a blackjack game is the first hand off the deck, which corresponds to shuffling after every hand. Shuffling after every hand decreases the house edge for a basic strategy player. It obviously does not favor a card counting player.
If only the logs files and recorded playcheck ideos I have supported this a la a 2-card 20's for the house and player ya know like tossing a coin......how many standard deviaiations over how many total hands does this have to be off............................................... .................................................. ...Wanna put your money where your stats are? I will..........10,000 hands per session,any MG,RTG or proprietary I have played software platform that reshuffles (casinos will be determined at commencement of play and there can be no prior contact with the casino regarding this proposition), 10,15 sessions you name it......you win if the total number o... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: aka23 at December 29, 2007, 12:46 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
I know I'm getting up there in years, but didn't it NOT used to be this way? I seem to remember (I forget which software) online casinos that DIDN'T shuffle after every hand. Hell, the software would even pipe up when it was time and announce that they were shuffling!!
...was it Playtech?
There are still some that don't shuffle after each hand, but offhand I am not certain which ones. A few days ago, Kismet/Cantor Gaming released the game "Statjack", which isn't shuffled after each hand. Instead the game reports the cards remaining in the deck after each hand and related statistics about the player's odds for the next draw.
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| Posted by: aka23 at December 29, 2007, 12:22 pm | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
To be honest, I would LOVE to find out the *true* HA when it comes to them shuffling after every hand. Sure, you have the same odds/probabilities as if they didn't, but IMO it raises their advantage.
The standard way of listing house edge for a blackjack game is for the first hand off the deck, which corresponds to shuffling after every hand. Shuffling after every hand decreases the house edge for a basic strategy player. The size of the decrease can be quite significant... 0.11% for a 1-deck game. Wizard of Odds has specific numbers at http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html . However, shuffling after each hand obviously does not favor a card counting player.
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| Posted by: lojo at December 29, 2007, 11:47 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
@ LJ AND WB.....iirc, Kimss's cheating thread in the last day or so has some good discussion with myself and other knowledgable posters regarding the "RANDOM SHUFFLE" online. Do you think the onlines do not know it is their achilles heel?? Would love more opinions!
Emulate a deck or be found wanting
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 11:41 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
To be honest, I would LOVE to find out the *true* HA when it comes to them shuffling after every hand. Sure, you have the same odds/probabilities as if they didn't, but IMO it raises their advantage.
I know I'm getting up there in years, but didn't it NOT used to be this way? I seem to remember (I forget which software) online casinos that DIDN'T shuffle after every hand. Hell, the software would even pipe up when it was time and announce that they were shuffling!!
...was it Playtech?
I have not played online long enough to know other than Playtech offers the "as the world turns slow" live dealer games
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| Posted by: winbig at December 29, 2007, 11:33 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by NASHVEGAS
@ LJ AND WB.....iirc, Kimss's cheating thread in the last day or so has some good discussion with myself and other knowledgable posters regarding the "RANDOM SHUFFLE" online. Do you think the onlines do not know it is their achilles heel?? Would love more opinions!
To be honest, I would LOVE to find out the *true* HA when it comes to them shuffling after every hand. Sure, you have the same odds/probabilities as if they didn't, but IMO it raises their advantage.
I know I'm getting up there in years, but didn't it NOT used to be this way? I seem to remember (I forget which software) online casinos that DIDN'T shuffle after every hand. Hell, the software would even pipe up when it was time and announce that they were shuffling!!
...was it Playtech?
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| Posted by: lojo at December 29, 2007, 11:27 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
I love to gamble too, but...throwing money away isn't gambling, at least in my book
On a side note, it's almost impossible to beat the house in Vegas playing single deck anymore. You're not going to find a game that doesn't pay 6:5 for blackjack anymore
Yes i can, and yip, I play high ariance BJ... just not a plodder.. but hell, you've been there at least twice since I... did you go downtown? You beat the bastards down with hitting on 12, they get squeeky and weak... then you play perfect strat for a while whether the boss is in the pit or not... makes for an interesting game anyway. I split queens somteimes
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at December 29, 2007, 11:10 am | | Topic: Blackjack online.... Random or rigged Forum: Casino Meister |
@ LJ AND WB.....iirc, Kimss's cheating thread in the last day or so has some good discussion with myself and other knowledgable posters regarding the "RANDOM SHUFFLE" online. Do you think the onlines do not know it is their achilles heel?? Would love more opinions!
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