| Posted by: Casinomeister at June 9, 2006, 1:45 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by mitch
This thread needs a wooden stake.
It keeps going because members keep introducing matters that have nothing to do with the issue raised.
Wooden stake inserted without prejudice.
Thread upgraded to closed.
Now back to the beach...
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| Posted by: mitch at June 9, 2006, 1:35 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Linus
I do not know whether you are deliberately being disengenuous or are just confused.
A lot of casinos allow you to play their games with 'Play Money' their T&Cs emphasise you cannot withdraw any 'winnings'. Are you saying you would support a player who won money under these T&Cs and then asked the casino for the money?
This is the same issue, the casino said these games were excluded with a bonus, no ifs and buts about their T&Cs.
If this player had stopped after just playing the excluded games would you be argueing that she was entitled to her 'winnings'?
I can't believe any reasonable person would think so and legally it's no contest.
Assuming you are reasonable you must therefore agree she had no winnings after playing the excluded games and therefore started playing on allowed games with just her original stake and bonus.
The question of confiscation only arises if the player played excluded games and then ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Linus at June 9, 2006, 1:04 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by mitch
This thread needs a wooden stake.
It keeps going because members keep introducing matters that have nothing to do with the issue raised.
Refresh -
The player played games excluded by the casinos T&Cs. She obviously won nothing, then lost all her real money on her first bet on an allowed game.
You say she "obviously won nothing," but in fact, she won ~8000 pounds.
You say she "lost all her real money," but money won is just as real as any other kind.
Quote:
The casino has not confiscated anything, there was nothing to confiscate!
You say King Neptune confiscated nothing, but in fact, they confiscated all the winnings in the player's account.
Quote:
(would they have actually confiscated if the player had been a winner on allowed games? Who knows it's purely hypothetical)
But Piecar did win money on allowe... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: henryVIII at June 9, 2006, 12:40 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
I think this thread is an embarrasment to King Neptunes. Losing £8,000 because a casino changed its terms overnight ... phew!! That is a ery nasty way to do business. I will never play there obviously.
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| Posted by: dalzilla at June 9, 2006, 12:04 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Been out of online gaming for a while but staying current on my "required reading"
Must agree... this thread needs to go away... use the silver bullet, stake, garlic, exorcism, whatever.
The horse is dead.
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| Posted by: mitch at June 8, 2006, 11:22 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
This thread needs a wooden stake.
It keeps going because members keep introducing matters that have nothing to do with the issue raised.
Refresh -
The player played games excluded by the casinos T&Cs. She obviously won nothing, then lost all her real money on her first bet on an allowed game.
The casino has not confiscated anything, there was nothing to confiscate! (would they have actually confiscated if the player had been a winner on allowed games? Who knows it's purely hypothetical)
This approach, of having excluded games, has been recommended by members on this forum as the way to go for casinos who consider advantage play bonus abuse, rather than confiscating winnings after the event by using their 'catch all' T&C.
Members keep posting that Inter, et al, would pay if the person had played this way at their casinos. (they would actually because they don't have excluded games they just have 'restricted' games) But who gives a ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: maxlevine at June 8, 2006, 10:17 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
Ok... that's my last word on this topic. Someone shoot me if I post again on this thread!
LOL
Actually, Vesuvio, it was still interesting. But I think Simmo's cartoon many pages earlier says it all
Max
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 9:33 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
You're just speculating like I am. I'm sure it would be simple to prevent players playing on disallowed games but that would remove the possibility of confiscating winning... & probably more significantly it would stop people wasting money on games that don't count to the wr. Just as making Playcheck useful would allow people to finish exactly at the wagering requirement. It's all about percentages in this game.
Trust me - if they had this capability already (which they don't) we would have been howling for justice had it not been turned on. We have been asking for this for YEARS.
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 9:24 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
I don't think their system can flag disallowed games - otherwise it would be quite simple to not allow the games to be played in the first place.
You're just speculating like I am. I'm sure it would be simple to prevent players playing on disallowed games but that would remove the possibility of confiscating winning... & probably more significantly it would stop people wasting money on games that don't count to the wr. Just as making Playcheck useful would allow people to finish exactly at the wagering requirement. It's all about percentages in this game.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting King Neptune are at the level of the majority of Playtech/RTG outfits. I just think this particularly term is worthy of the latter.
Ok... that's my last word on this topic. Someone shoot me if I post again on this thread!
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 9:11 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
It strikes me as just as likely their accounting software flags up any significant win when disallowed games were played and they automatically oid all winnings. Then only if the player complains and is persistent they'll have a closer look at the exact order the bets were played.
I don't think their system can flag disallowed games - otherwise it would be quite simple to not allow the games to be played in the first place.
All cashouts would be checked manually if a bonus was received. And now you are really taking the mick... Everyone here at CM knows Trident's stellar reputation, and there has rarely been any complaint at all, and those rare few were immediately handled in favor of the player as well.
What on Earth (no pun intended) would even give you the impression that they act like some rogue Playtech operator?
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| Posted by: soflat at June 8, 2006, 9:10 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster:
Why do you think she even bothered to check the actual play in the FIRST place?
Hmmm,
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio:
To defend the casino's actions.
Bingo!
Obviously Micki did not want those winnings paid out. And she used her discretion to confiscate them and get a justification when the need arose.
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 9:01 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by derelict
Man, if you thought this thread was bad before......
I cannot believe we're arguing over whether or not play on certain games oids winnings at Intercasino et al. This is lunacy.
Can't argue with that
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 8:59 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
I rest my case.
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
Did it ever occur to you that all play must be checked in the FIRST place before the payment is approved?
Had you met the WR - your payment would have been approved - simple as that. This is a non-issue.
It strikes me as just as likely their accounting software flags up any significant win when disallowed games were played and they automatically oid all winnings. Then only if the player complains and is persistent they'll have a closer look at the exact order the bets were played.
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| Posted by: Linus at June 8, 2006, 8:57 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Spear, as you can see from this screen capture, I've got bonuses stacked up at Intercasino going back to Feb. (I'm a big loser there).
If you're agreeable, we could do this right now. I deposit $500, and play one $500 game of craps. If I win, I immediately take the $1000 to Pontoon (Mmmm, Pontoon... ) and play out whatever number of hands I need to withdraw the entire amount.
Of course, I can't guarantee that I will win - in fact, it's more likely that I'll lose. But I'm 100% certain that Intercasino will not confiscate any winnings. That includes winnings on an excluded game, that has always been excluded at Intercasino, that is one of only 3 excluded games they have there, and that I know for a fact is excluded, before I begin to play.
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 8:34 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
when I started playing on-line I'd meet the wr and then fiddle around with any other casino games I felt like. Naive? Perhaps, but there was never a problem.
I rest my case.
Quote:
To defend the casino's actions.
Did it ever occur to you that all play must be checked in the FIRST place before the payment is approved?
Had you met the WR - your payment would have been approved - simple as that. This is a non-issue.
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 7:41 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
You said you met the WR and then played roulette. Now you're saying you played roulette and then met the WR.
Which is it?
Go back and read, Spear. I've said the same thing 3 times.
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
Why do you think she even bothered to check the actual play in the FIRST place?
To defend the casino's actions.
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 7:32 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
Actually in the only "case scenario" I gave you I played roulette first, won £936 and then met the wr on allowed games. You ignored the fact Intercasino don't confiscate winnings, however you play (they ban you from future bonuses) - ergo there's no problem playing disallowed games first.
You said you met the WR and then played roulette. Now you're saying you played roulette and then met the WR.
Which is it?
Quote:
Now that is something it really would be worth checking with King Neptune! If you did that at a lot of the Playtechs and RTG casinos with confiscation terms you'd forfeit your winnings, despite having met the wagering requirements first.
King Neptune's is not a Playtech or a RTG - not even close. There would have been zero reason for Micki to confiscate the winnings if the WR had been met prior to any play on formerly restricted games. Why do you think she even bothered to ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 7:27 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
You have missed the point entirely. Your case scenario does not even realistically match what we have been talking about all along. There is a BIG difference between playing disallowed games and then going on to meet playthrough, as opposed to meeting playthrough and THEN playing disallowed games
Actually in the only "case scenario" I gave you I played roulette first, won £936 and then met the wr on allowed games. You ignored the fact Intercasino don't confiscate winnings, however you play (they ban you from future bonuses) - ergo there's no problem playing disallowed games first.
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
- which, btw, are no longer disallowed games since you met the playthrough... so excuse me if I say WTF again...
Now that is something it really would be worth checking with King Neptune! If you did that at a lot of the Playtechs and RTG casinos with confiscation terms you'd forfei... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 7:17 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
Rest assured it's fine to play "disallowed" games first and then meet the wr at Intercasino. If they dislike your approach they can ban you from future bonuses. I've never heard a single case of confiscation of winnnings there. Have you?
You have missed the point entirely. Your case scenario does not even realistically match what we have been talking about all along. There is a BIG difference between playing disallowed games and then going on to meet playthrough, as opposed to meeting playthrough and THEN playing disallowed games - which, btw, are no longer disallowed games since you met the playthrough... so excuse me if I say WTF again...
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 7:06 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
Furthermore, I said "regular", not all - I did not misquote you.
You said: I fail to see how "regular" players can all be doing this
Rest assured it's fine to play "disallowed" games first and then meet the wr at Intercasino. If they dislike your approach they can ban you from future bonuses. I've never heard a single case of confiscation of winnnings there. Have you?
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 6:51 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
Did I say anything about "all" players - it's just common knowledge how the bonus system works at Cryptologic casinos. You can play anything but the restricted games don't count. It's also normal at most reputable casinos. I can't believe you've missed it - when I started playing on-line I'd meet the wr and then fiddle around with any other casino games I felt like. Naive? Perhaps, but there was never a problem.
Is it me or did you just describe something entirely different from what I have been saying?
If you meet the PT and THEN play restricted games there should NOT be a problem.
If you play restricted games and THEN meet the PT it is a completely different situation.
Furthermore, I said "regular", not all - I did not misquote you.
Quote:
I think you'll find quite a lot of "regular" players have tried out roulette and craps at the Cryptos, seeing as ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 6:36 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
Pardon my ignorance - but are you saying that regular players take bonuses and play restricted games?
Something just does not add up here. Maybe you've done it - but I fail to see how "regular" players can all be doing this.
Did I say anything about "all" players - it's just common knowledge how the bonus system works at Cryptologic casinos. You can play anything but the restricted games don't count. It's also normal at most reputable casinos. I can't believe you've missed it - when I started playing on-line I'd meet the wr and then fiddle around with any other casino games I felt like. Naive? Perhaps, but there was never a problem.
I think you'll find quite a lot of "regular" players have tried out roulette and craps at the Cryptos, seeing as they're the most popular casino games. I don't know any bonus hunters who play them to "build up a balance" as there are much better gam... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rreevy at June 8, 2006, 6:09 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Good point about the expectation on slots bonuses, Vesuvio. I have a follow-up question which I'll send as a private message since it's not really relevant to this particular thread. In fact, I apologise if I've side-tracked this thread at all by getting into a general discussion about bonus abuse, rather than the specifics of this player's case.
Still, the roulette abuse strategy discussed does dramatically increase the long-run profitability of such bonuses, so maybe this is relevant somehow to the question of building up a big balance on Deuces Wild.
In principle, I'd be happy to accept Spear's challenge, but it could easily be several months before I increase my balance fivefold with the monthly bonus. Will we still be discussing this then?
The KN term clearly does give the right to oid winnings, whereas in my iew Intercasino's does not. I will contact them on this point, asking for permission to post the reply on this forum.
Quote:
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 6:03 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
There's no need to ask, Spear, as regular players know how these casinos work. Note I've even done what you're on about - played roulette, got a big balance and then met the wr with games that count - and been paid no problem.
No-one's arguing with you for the hell of it; you're just showing staggering perseverance in claiming something we all know to be untrue. It looks a bit silly.
Pardon my ignorance - but are you saying that regular players take bonuses and play restricted games?
Something just does not add up here. Maybe you've done it - but I fail to see how "regular" players can all be doing this.
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 5:50 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
So only Linus wants to take up my challenge - the rest of you just wanna ASK?
There's no need to ask, Spear, as regular players know how these casinos work. Note I've even done what you're on about - played roulette, got a big balance and then met the wr with games that count - and been paid no problem.
No-one's arguing with you for the hell of it; you're just showing staggering perseverance in claiming something we all know to be untrue. It looks a bit silly.
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 5:35 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
So only Linus wants to take up my challenge - the rest of you just wanna ASK?
What the heck do you think they're going to tell you?
"WTF were you thinking? Of course we confiscate winnings derived from play on non-permitted games..."
...um... NOT...
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| Posted by: Pinababy69 at June 8, 2006, 5:31 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
If I didn't know better, I could swear this whole thing is about "argue with Spear no matter what" rather than "interpretation of terms and conditions".
Ya think?
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| Posted by: derelict at June 8, 2006, 5:26 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
How is my post batty?
Cryptologic's terms are even more ague than King Neptunes - and yet you want to hold that up as a model for terms and conditions?
It is simply amazing that anyone could call "entitlement" a clear description of any sort. If I didn't know better, I could swear this whole thing is about "argue with Spear no matter what" rather than "interpretation of terms and conditions".
That's the standard escape clause BS that everyone has. So long as it isn't invoked, I don't consider it an issue. Here are the terms I was talking about:
http://www.intercasino.com/promotions/deposit/
Directly on the page about the bonus, the terms governing their promotion are bulleted and easily understood. In particular, this one:
Baccarat Roulette and Craps do not count towards your minimum wagering requirement.
No misunderstandings and no confiscated winnings. E... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 4:43 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by derelict
Spear, your post about the cryptologics is batty. Their terms are quite fair and should be a model for other operations.
How is my post batty?
Cryptologic's terms are even more ague than King Neptunes - and yet you want to hold that up as a model for terms and conditions?
It is simply amazing that anyone could call "entitlement" a clear description of any sort. If I didn't know better, I could swear this whole thing is about "argue with Spear no matter what" rather than "interpretation of terms and conditions".
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 3:11 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by rreevy
Ordinarily, such a bonus would have no positive expectation. Assuming the edge on slots is about 5%, a slots-only bonus with a 20x WR (which is not uncommon) would lead to you losing your bonus and deposit at about the point you meet the WR, on average.
It's a bit counter-intuitive, but you're actually expected to make a profit (over a good number of casinos) even with the 5% edge and a 20x wr. You don't usually meet the wr (because you bust out early), so overall you lose less to the house edge than if you were wagering the full wr.
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| Posted by: derelict at June 8, 2006, 2:29 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
There is an advantage to bust with a bonus, but my argument is that this term has no reason to exist because the same strategy could be used with irtually any other game in the casino.
With these conditions, they have set up a situation where the software will accept bets where wins are oided and losses are not. While they are within their right according to the terms, the terms are simply not fair and should be condemned.
Spear, your post about the cryptologics is batty. Their terms are quite fair and should be a model for other operations.
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| Posted by: rreevy at June 8, 2006, 12:41 pm | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
I'd be happy to e-mail Intercasino and ask them whether they'd oid winnings for playing an excluded game, even if you subsequently met the WR on allowed ones. I'd be prepared to wager that they wouldn't oid winnings in such cases.
soflat, thanks ever so much for your post. I realise I've made a mistake in my approach to this question. While betting on a single number on roulette is not a profitable play in itself, I omitted to take account of the fact that you only have to meet the WR at the one place you don't bust out, not at the 36 where you do. You lose £14,400, but £7,200 of that is bonus money so you only lose £7,200 of your own. When you win the £14,000, you are actually up £6800. Let's say these bonuses have a WR of 20x D+B on slots only. You now have to wager £8,000 on slots to clear the WR. Assuming a 5% slots edge you lose £400, for an overall net profit of £6,400 (or £6,200 if the bonus is sticky).
Ordinarily, such a bonus wo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 11:13 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
Every casino has a right to choose which games it will allow and which games it doesn't want to allow. It matters not WHY they choose these games. This is why I am not paying any attention to the side discussion about edge or games or anything that does NOT concern the issue at hand.
The "issue" in my post is your claim that Intercasino operate the same confiscation policy as King Neptune's. They don't. If you won't accept that on trust then the games allowed should convince you (see my post again - I don't see the point repeating arguments you ignore). If that doesn't persuade you then I can't help.
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| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 10:36 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
There'd be absolutely no problem as anyone who has the slightest idea about how the bonus works there knows. Why didn't you respond to my point about the reason for Intercasino not counting those games? Do you really not see it's nothing to do with stopping players building up a bankroll?
Every casino has a right to choose which games it will allow and which games it doesn't want to allow. It matters not WHY they choose these games. This is why I am not paying any attention to the side discussion about edge or games or anything that does NOT concern the issue at hand.
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at June 8, 2006, 9:00 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
As I told you, you are welcome to take up the challenge. Play on excluded games - build up bankroll - then lose your deposit & bonus during playthrough on allowed games, and use the remainder of funds to complete playthrough.
If you succeed, can prove your play, and get paid, I match your deposit up to whatever the bonus was.
Spear, you're being absurd. There'd be absolutely no problem as anyone who has the slightest idea about how the bonus works there knows. Why didn't you respond to my point about the reason for Intercasino not counting those games? Do you really not see it's nothing to do with stopping players building up a bankroll?
Your comment about losing the "deposit & bonus" is a weird consideration that I've only ever heard used in this particular case at King Neptune's. Nothing of the sort comes into play at Intercasino or most other casinos.
Your challenge isn't a challenge. ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: chuchu59 at June 8, 2006, 7:51 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
How many times must I explain this simple matter?
Bet $100. Win $100. Win automatically oided. Balance: $400
Bet $150. Win $150. Win automatically oided. Balance: $400
...
Play on excluded games is VOIDED. It does not count. No matter how you word it, she is NOT entitled to anything for these plays regardless of what amount is shown in her account. Any winnings derived can be considered to have been obtained by deception, if you ask me - and thus subject to a lot more serious problems than just being oided. But casinos simply oid plays because they have the luxury of being able to track the play - and it is entirely within their rights.
I missed this post altogether. Spearmaster, I hope you are right and that the casino has conceded that all play on excluded games are oided and not just the winning hands. The Terms and Conditions certainly do not reflect this.
Using your example, Piec... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: spearmaster at June 8, 2006, 7:41 am | | Topic: KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings! Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Vesuvio
You're simply wrong on this, Spear. To date Intercasino and similar casinos haven't invoked this type of escape clause. Sometimes they choose not to offer bonuses to particular players in future, which is their right, but they pay out winnings first. For what it's worth I once played roulette (not something I make a habit of!) at Totalbet and won £960. I met the wr on other games and withdrew no problem.
As I told you, you are welcome to take up the challenge. Play on excluded games - build up bankroll - then lose your deposit & bonus during playthrough on allowed games, and use the remainder of funds to complete playthrough.
If you succeed, can prove your play, and get paid, I match your deposit up to whatever the bonus was.
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