| Posted by: thelawnet at August 17, 2006, 1:00 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by wootchris
My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:
So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.
um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.
I have no idea.
They are clearly a bunch of crooks. They knew the player was going to play in a manner that meant he was expected to win, because they've got a shared database and he's signed up to other casinos just to get the bonus. Apparently this is fraud????
Just to be clear: casino plays in a manner where casino is expected to win (i.e. all the time without a bonus) - not fraud
player plays in a manner where player is expected to win - fraud
They have every right to exclude players, but they need to do it when they sign up, BEFORE they deposit. Or ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: nafanny29 at August 17, 2006, 12:09 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
If casinos dont want to attract "bonus hunters" then dont offer +EV bonuses... Period, Most reputable casinos are after customers who like a gamble and are allowed to sometimes get lucky. Any decent casino will court such players and accept the fact that they will get lucky every so often. Hell even I have won in Vegas occasionally and my comps dont disappear as a result (in fact they improve amazingly)
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| Posted by: rreevy at August 16, 2006, 5:17 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.
You mean terms that allow you to take away a player's winnings because you don't like the way they played? I notice those are conveniently ague. BTW I have yet to be presented with a list of T&Cs I have to read before walking into a land-based casino... but then I don't go to land-based casinos ery often, so what do I know?
Quote:
This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.
I think Vesuvio summed this up pretty well. Players can use o... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sirius at August 16, 2006, 2:51 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
These casinos have been blacklisted for years on my site for similar behaviour. There have been countless threads at winneronline too going back a few years and many here too. They need to understand how to run a casino properly and ethically.
It's one of the few groups of casinos I've never bothered playing. The Strydom guy must be new and he's put the final nail in the coffin. I also wonder if this group is connected to any other, maybe even a Microgaming powered group. I know Swiss Casino was initially owned or partly owned by an existing online operator but I never found out which one.
WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Vegasred denies winnings, based on bonus abuse.
WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Magic Box Casino "voids" winnings! Little to no explanation!
WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Casino Las Vegas - removes bonus and winnings for "abuse" (ie: winning)
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| Posted by: nafanny29 at August 16, 2006, 12:02 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
From their site:
"Magicbox Casino is a fully licensed Online Casino, regulated by the Government of Antigua and operating under the supervision of the Director of Offshore Gaming. We adhere to a strict code of conduct and our high level of integrity has earned us the trust and loyalty of our numerous clients."
Makes me want to
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| Posted by: frufrugirl at August 16, 2006, 4:29 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
gosh, it's basically saying "If you use our bonues in conjunction with your money, we reserve the right to tell you how to play. Players who do not sufficiantly dink around with their money and lose at the rate required will lose further access to our casino in an attempt to prevent the fraud of winning".......
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| Posted by: Vesuvio at August 15, 2006, 11:10 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
In a way it's refreshing to see the indefensible logic of so many on-line casinos stated so bluntly.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom
This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.
Inept grammar aside, it's the old story - playing a bonus and trying to keep some of the "free" money is "abuse". Players are supposed to be gullible enough to be drawn in by the incentive and lose their deposit, but if they play sensibly and get lucky the casino won't allow itself to be "gullible", so it'll just steal any winnings. Sounds like a neat get-rich-quick scheme to me.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jonathan Strydom
Now this is where casino information share... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: wootchris at August 15, 2006, 10:23 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:
Quote:
"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.
When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system ia email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with d... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: wootchris at August 15, 2006, 10:21 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:
Quote:
"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.
When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system ia email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with d... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: frufrugirl at August 12, 2006, 5:22 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Seems to me that that Graham's replies are saying..."hey, he was stupid enough to sign this here agreement , so there ! And ...Buh Bye!.."
Well, I apparently have signed stupid agreements but I didnt feel they were stupid because I never entered into a Casino agreement with the intent to defraud and never dreamed that the Casino would think I was defrauding them by taking their offer! I take the bonus's because they are offered and I really want to play!
How many new people are coming online to "Cheat the casinos?" not many i'd say but, 100% are there to try and BEAT the Casino because WE ALL WANT TO WIN !! We figure..Hey! Good deal! Maybe I can win! I'll put 100.00 of my money down if they will match it! Never mind that I have to risk it all by trying to make the WR..but hey..Maybe I can! Never know! It's a gamble and that goes on BOTH SIDES!!!!
Isnt that what the bonus's are supposed to do? Bring in the customers? Increase our enjoyment of the casino so we come... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: paul02085 at August 12, 2006, 12:36 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
I would call this theft and fraud. I guarantee you they couldnt get away with this if they were regulated. IMO, I would strongly suggest anyone reading this thread to stay far away from these casinos unless you want to get robbed.
What they are doing is no different from sticking a gun in someones back and stealing their wallet.
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| Posted by: rreevy at August 11, 2006, 1:21 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
They refunded the player's original deposit (singular). Which one? I believe he made a number of deposits at multiple casinos within their group and had winnings off one, which they've confiscated. I don't think they're returning the deposits he lost. In other words they deemed his style of play abusive when he won, but not when he lost.
imo the only 'right' thing to do is pay the player's winnings. Refunding his deposits and banning him isn't great, but it's better than nothing.
Graham, I don't see how points 9.6 and 9.7 are relevant. As far as I'm aware there's no suggestion that the player committed fraud, charged back, or broke any T&Cs.
Quote:
In connection with the specific terms of the above promotions, bonus and special offers, we further reserve the right to withhold any withdrawal amount from your account which will be in excess of your original deposit.
In other words, if a player uses a bonus and wins, you don't have to do any m... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sdaddy at August 11, 2006, 3:19 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Graham,
You can write in your T&C that you reserve the right to confiscate winnings from a bonus offer if you feel like it, but that won't fly here. Any reputable casino group has to honor a withdrawal from a player who has met the specific wagering requirements and terms of the offer.
I think Casinomeister said it best in the Feb 9 newsletter:
Quote:
Dealing with Players Who Use Bonuses
If you offer a player a bonus, and this player meets the wagering requirements - pay her (or him). Please understand, you are not being cheated if a player plays the bonus to the last cent; you are providing that player a unique service - the ability to gamble online. This is your function as a casino, and your mantra should be "Pay the player. Pay the player. Pay the player..." Repeat ad nauseum.
Providing gambling activities online may be your function, but with a bit of creativity and ingenuity you can garner loyalty from this player to k... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Rusty at August 9, 2006, 4:01 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Could the Casinos please define exactly what a "Bonus abuser is."
I just dont get it.
It is individual casinos that advertise a first deposit bonus and not the group or software provider so what is the problem with this guy taking up more than one promotion?
Also what are the wagering requirements all about if it is not the Casinos way of making sure their promotions are not open to abuse.
"In the interests of fair gaming we ask our players to wager x amount before a withdrawal can be made."
In the interests of fair gaming I ask the Casinos to simplify a bonus in the following manner;
In the event of a player losing his/her first deposit having made no withdrawal request the Casino offers a bonus of x% of deposit lost.This bonus is cashable and has no WR.
Now of course this would never happen because the Casinos know they would be at real risk from "bonus abuse" but that is what a genuine promotion would look like.
... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: kwblue at August 9, 2006, 1:37 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Graham....
Seriously - answer the freakin' question. WHAT ABUSE HAPPENED? What was your reasoning for closing the accounts? Nobody is going to feel IOG did the right thing until you answer that question!
I am removing all IOG casinos from my affiliate sites. I won't promote this kind of shit.
PS - I am glad that you refunded his original deposit (yay!), but how do we know this won't happen again?
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| Posted by: Graham at August 9, 2006, 11:56 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Our casino group always tries its best to follow the rules set down in the Terms of Use that all of our players must read and have to agree to in order to become a member of one of our casinos. The player with the issue in question agreed to all of the following statements. We have refunded his original deposit and closed his account.
Below are the specific points in our agreed upon Terms of Use.
9.6 In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.
9.7 We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally…
9.8 We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to o... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: rreevy at August 1, 2006, 11:48 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Sorry to hear about your situation, wootchris, though it's good to see someone posting on this thread again. I always feel it's a shame when these things go quiet without any kind of resolution being reached.
If I understand the original player's case right, he/she had losses at four of the five casinos, but still had a balance with them, from which the bonuses were deducted. My take on these things is simple:
1. Either the player's deposited funds are wagered first, or the bonus funds are wagered first. Casinos cannot choose retrospectively which of these happens, as this would clearly allow them to deal with each case in the way that works out best for them, rather than in a fair and consistent manner.
2. Casinos have the right to refuse to issue a bonus. (I may not like it, but I do accept it). However, once they've actually issued the bonus, they're bound to let the player play it out and make a withdrawal, according to the T&Cs. If the casino then wants to refus... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: wootchris at August 1, 2006, 4:34 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
IOG did the same thing to me except I am UP money which they are now refusing to pay.
IF THEY LOCK YOUR ACCOUNT FOR SOME REASON WHEN YOU ARE UP THEN YOU ARE "ABUSIVE" AND THEY DO NOT DO ANYTHING BUT RETURN DEPOSITS.
IF THEY LOCK YOUR ACCOUNT FOR SOME REASON WHEN YOU ARE DOWN THEN YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE LOSSES ACCORDING TO THEM AND THEY WON'T GIVE YOU YOUR DEPOSITS BACK.
YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
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| Posted by: Linus at June 7, 2006, 6:22 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy
Because this way they get a chance to freeroll their players.
If the player wins, the casino confiscates his winnings.
If the player loses, the casino keeps the losses.
This way, the casino can take advantage of bonuses, without having to risk any of its own funds.
The only way players can protect themselves from this kind of bonus abuse, is to publicize the names of the casinos who do it, so we know which sites to avoid.
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| Posted by: BBKPoker at May 5, 2006, 2:56 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
You still have yet to answer the original question that has been brought up:
How can you possibly refuse to refund a player's deposits AFTER you've pulled their bonuses, and WHILE they were in the middle of wagering when those wagers would NOT have been placed had you not allowed the player to both sign up and receive a bonus?
It has absolutely nothing to do with asking for losses back and everything to do with expecting to be refunded wagers that were made due to a promise and offer by your company that turned out to be false. It's bad enough that you pulled his bonuses period, and you are now putting up a fight over refunding him his deposits is absurd.
An analogy to what you did would be if a cellphone company gave you a $100 credit to renew a contract, you do so, and then they reverse it and charge you $100 after all.
This whole fiasco is a complete and obvious bait and switch.
I'm glad I referred JD here and helped him out with his post, becaus... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: soflat at May 4, 2006, 8:21 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
I would just like to clarify that the player was treated in accordance to rules agreed when the player signed up as a member of the casino group . Our management team took no action that was against any bonus policy nor any action that was against our Terms of Use. Of course we returned the balances in his accounts, but we cannot return funds lost while playing in the casino.
In one case you decided that the bonus money was played first.
In the other cases you decided that player funds were wagered first.
Is this group rogue yet?
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| Posted by: Graham at May 4, 2006, 8:12 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Hello everyone,
I would just like to clarify that the player was treated in accordance to rules agreed when the player signed up as a member of the casino group . Our management team took no action that was against any bonus policy nor any action that was against our Terms of Use. Of course we returned the balances in his accounts, but we cannot return funds lost while playing in the casino.
Sincerely,
Graham
IOG Casino Group
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| Posted by: rtmlam at May 3, 2006, 5:05 am | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by nafanny29
This is a good idea but for the big groups that have 10 or even 20+ casinos how would you know/remember which casinos you have already played at. Im talking about the more casual players not the out and out bonus hunters.
It would be awful to sign up to casino no2 in a group in good faith, get a bonus and win and be denyed payment.
Surely they could match up your name/address and not give a bonus automatically.
I agree, I think it is absurd for a group to offer a bonus at it's casinos and later claim it's always abuse (when the player wins) if a player may take advantage of some of these offers. If you do not want to offer the bonus to all that come, make it clear in the terms at a minimum.
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| Posted by: soflat at April 28, 2006, 10:41 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
When you receive a bonus, the first wagers are either bonus monies or deposited funds. That is up to the casino and has to be applied consistently.
But what we seem to have here is a casino that selects the option that best suits them on case by case basis.
If the bonus funds are wagered first, and the casino later revokes the bonus, the player should be entitled to all of his/her deposited funds remaining. So for example, if the player deposited $100 and received $100 bonus, but lost $50, then he/she still has $100 in deposited funds and should get that back when the casino renegs on the bonus offer.
Conversely, if the deposited funds are wagered first, then the player would only have $50 of his own money left in the above example. But if he won, then he/she would keep the winnings because he was risking his own money.
In this case the operator is inconsistent and therefore rogue:
1) For the casinos the player lost at, the operator is saying that deposit... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Vesuvio at April 28, 2006, 9:11 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy
i.e. Make it illegal in terms of the T&Cs to take more than one signup in the group, and then indicate clearly and upfront which casinos comprise the group where this is applicable. Then there can be no misunderstandings or "working the T&Cs".
But of course casino groups want players to sign-up at as many of their casinos as possible, and even with as many false identities as they can come up with... just as long as they lose. Why go to to the bother of finding new losing players if one of them's willing to play at all your sites?
They want to have their cake & eat it - so they'll allow players to lose their deposits but then cheat winning players. It's pure theft, obviously, and this casino group's even willing to own up t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: soflat at April 28, 2006, 7:38 pm | | Topic: AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc Forum: Casino Meister |
The casino should either:
a) state in the T&Cs that you cannot do multiple bonuses within their group,
or b) erify member eligibilty before issuing the bonus credits (unfortunately this means all players would have to wait for the casino to issue the bonus rather it receive them instantly).
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The player should:
a) learn to not be such an obvious bonus hunter (when you get your account closed you prolly won't get any good reload bonuses, duh!)
and b) learn to use the available resources to select more reputable casinos.
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All players should avoid this group of casinos because:
a) the rules are too ague
and b) the operator seems to be using them to prey on some players.
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