| Posted by: guymiz at October 5, 2007, 10:25 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
You are right , no more bad words, I pitched a bitch and hope they pay and everything is fine with everyone Metro group and me.
After all I enjoyed playing there, just pay and I consider this case done.
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| Posted by: KasinoKing at October 5, 2007, 7:33 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
First off I have not read all of the above posts - but I don't need to.
To me the terms are crystal clear;
You can play any games you want, but only the 3 games mentioned count towards WR.
It's there in black and white!
By confiscating the winnings citing only play on certain games as the reason and not claiming any specific 'bonus abuse', the casino is breaching it's own terms.
Pitch a Bitch!
I promote Metro (and it's sisters), but if they don't pay this player I promise I will remove them from my site - this is blatant rogue behavior.
KK
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| Posted by: jod5413 at October 5, 2007, 5:38 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Hi fellas! Not to bore you with my inadequate usage of long words, I'd like to throw in my honest opinion, if you'll bear with me (it's worth what, 2 cents?)
You all have alid points, you all have different opinions and beliefs in what is or should be right and wrong. What it ALL boils down to is the OP NEEDS to file a PAB and wait. The only smart thing AND the only possible way to a solution, whether it goes his way or not. That's it, that's the ball game, is that NOT what will ultimately make the FAT LADY SING? No sense getting each other so riled up, enemies are tiresome.
True or am I just an ijit?
Jod
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| Posted by: guymiz at October 4, 2007, 10:53 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Thank you for your responses.
When you use the words allowed, permitted in english you mean one thing.
This is why I said obvious. When a casino says play any of out other games is permitted and then says but it won't count towards the wagering , it means... permitted .... or allowed or feel free... BUT.....
The combination of such a phrase with the but invite to play other games, it is like saying...
Feel free to play any of our game, but wager in slots in order to be able to cashout any of your winnings.
Any attempt to say, permitted by the software but not by the casino people... permitted to play but not to win so much... permitted to play but it is like spitting on your boss... permitted to play but why would you do that , it is calling for troubles.... is irrelevant.
I have also something to say to the people who does not lilke the way I play.
I still risked $1500 of my funds depositing the casinos in the group.
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| Posted by: lojo at October 4, 2007, 12:24 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by sdaddy
Actually, my position is that this is not about ambiguity favoring the player, but that the language in the terms clearly allows what the player did. In that sense, it's irrelevant whether or not I am trying to defend bonus chasers. But since you brought it up, the truth is that I rarely play with bonuses these days, so I'm not approaching this as someone just defending a narrow self-interest.
This is about whether or not casinos - or players for that matter - should have to follow the rules as they're written, simple as that. If we start moving to an environment where application of rules is "flexible" or "discretionary," then it's not just bonus chasers who are going to be affected, all of us eventually will.
I totally respect that. I can see your position from your challenge to PlayShare, the fact that you don't 'automatically' jump on the side of the player, and some other past posts.
(whether you ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: happygobrokey at October 3, 2007, 9:27 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
it's been established many times over that "doesn't count for wagering" IS ambiguous (different casinos treat it differently) and warrants clarification before embarking on a potentially damning course of action.
in this instance it says "permitted" but immediately after it says "but playing on these games before wagering is met", and sure the next part is "won't count for wagering", but once wagering is met it obviously doesn't matter if the play counts for wagering or not. if the middle part weren't there, and it said simply "permitted but not counting for wagering" makes it clear you can play it, but it still leaves you open for the casino to say "doesn't count" means "not allowed while bonus wr is unfulfilled".
so "won't count for wagering" is ambiguous in itself, "but playing them before wagering" seems to imply there might be trouble with playing them before wagering, and "permitted... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sdaddy at October 3, 2007, 8:58 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
If your premise is that any ambiguity should favor the player, and that's the only way to get casinos to tighten and straighten up their T&C's, then I may have to take another look. But if you are in the end, only defending bonuscraft, we're in opposite camps on the broader issue.
Actually, my position is that this is not about ambiguity favoring the player, but that the language in the terms clearly allows what the player did. In that sense, it's irrelevant whether or not I am trying to defend bonus chasers. But since you brought it up, the truth is that I rarely play with bonuses these days, so I'm not approaching this as someone just defending a narrow self-interest.
This is about whether or not casinos - or players for that matter - should have to follow the rules as they're written, simple as that. If we start moving to an environment where application of rules is "flexible" or "discretionary," then it's n... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: lojo at October 3, 2007, 6:00 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by sdaddy
Man, what a tortured way to turn language saying something is "permitted" into the exact opposite. You guys are working hard to discredit this player's case, I'll give you that.
This is really starting to bring back memories of Bill Clinton's argument that he was not lying when he testified about Monica Lewinsky because "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
What we say won't influence what Bryan will do if the guy PaB. Afaik, he's still all about the black and white of the matter.
If you look again you'll see that Happy seems to swing both ways on this one, and SlotWizard has said 'half a dozen times' the terms are ambiguous. The ChuChu and Gerilege posts seem ery well reasoned.
When someone comes along with a complaint that doesn't look 'exploit' related on the surface I'm almost always 50/50 leaning toward the player. But when dealing with someone who seems to practice the bonus ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sdaddy at October 3, 2007, 5:21 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by happygobrokey
one more thing, "permitted" could be taken to mean simply that the software won't stop you from doing so. read it like this "you can play these games, but doing it before the wr is met is not cricket". read 'not cricket' as 'prohibited', as 'not allowed' or as 'does not contribute', which we've come to realize means prohibited.
Man, what a tortured way to turn language saying something is "permitted" into the exact opposite. You guys are working hard to discredit this player's case, I'll give you that.
This is really starting to bring back memories of Bill Clinton's argument that he was not lying when he testified about Monica Lewinsky because "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
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| Posted by: gerilege at October 3, 2007, 3:59 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I agree that the T&Cs are not completely clear. They should only add a few words (I added with bold):
Play at any of our other games is permitted with your own funds however ... and the welcome bonus cannot be used to play those games.
Still, I feel a bit of greediness here as well. As long as you use funds from your cash balance you can play any games, and you probably won't get into trouble. But as the bonus is clearly intended to play slots, use it for slots.
Boss casinos first deduct your wager from your cash balance, and if there's no cash balance left, then they will deduct it from your bonus balance, so you might not need to risk the bonus funds at all, and you can still win. (In case of mixed (cash&bonus) bets, the winnings go to the two balances proportionally. In case of pure bonus bet it goes to the bonus balance.) I think it's a fair offer, and though I agree that the T&Cs are a bit unclear, I wouldn't call it rogue behaviour.
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| Posted by: lojo at October 3, 2007, 2:32 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I guess we can pit opinion and interpretation against the same for days... I can only imagine one or two more salient points that could be brought up. If he PaB'd then it will be handled.
I have my opinion and will just quote HGB instead of repeating in different posts over months and months ad nauseum
Quote:
...a player smart enough to find and exploit loopholes or ambiguity, and smart enough to find the resources to learn to hunt/wh0re bonuses, and smart enough to come here for help, really ought to be smart enough to know that casinos are the arbiters of what the rules are and what they mean, and they should be smart enough to ask and get things clear before handing over their money.
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| Posted by: SlotsWizard at October 3, 2007, 2:31 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by pangloss
Cry-baby affiliates that live in glass houses should not throw stones
Boo... and might I add, hoo!
Would you care to explain how the glass house/stones cliché applies to me? I don't give a flying turd about the casino in question here, nor do I currently have a financial interest in any other casino.
So I've given you some more rope. You know what to do with it. Don't let us down! Your posting history is second to none when it comes to blaming everyone else for your gambling problems.
example
example
example
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| Posted by: chuchu59 at October 3, 2007, 1:59 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
A little suspicion is acceptable since there have been many players trying to use the forum as a tool to irtually force casinos to pay their winnings whether legitmate or not. SW may lean a bit on the side of the casino as many of us tilt towards the players. As always, we should discuss and debate rationally in the forum. However, I wouldnt take SW's remarks as degrading to the OP.
Calm down, guys.
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| Posted by: pangloss at October 3, 2007, 1:30 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by SlotsWizard
Did I not mark my calendar correctly? Is today Gang-Up-On-A-New-Affiliate-Who-Doesn't-Even-Promote-This-Shitty-Casino Day?
Sorry, but I happen to have ETHICS, so your unfounded comments don't hold water either.
The OP (his native language not English) came to this Forum seeking guidance and assistance over a large no-pay (winnings) incident. The general consensus of opinion supports the substance of his complaint. Notwithstanding, you turn around and bash the OP saying,
“…..just be aware that 99.99% of all bonuses are SLOTS-ONLY these days, thanks to people such as yourself.”
You then cast further aspersions on the OP’s good character by the insinuation,
“…considering this person's location - one that is usually excluded from playing bonuses in the first place due to massive amounts of player fraud - I find the whole thing a bit fishy.”
Cry-baby affiliates that live in gla... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: happygobrokey at October 3, 2007, 6:00 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
for that to be the case, the player is going to have to sweet-talk and gently nudge the casino to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. and it seems like the casino is not budging, and the player's attitude seems somewhat hostile, so i don't see this going anywhere productive.
one more thing, "permitted" could be taken to mean simply that the software won't stop you from doing so. read it like this "you can play these games, but doing it before the wr is met is not cricket". read 'not cricket' as 'prohibited', as 'not allowed' or as 'does not contribute', which we've come to realize means prohibited.
it just ain't worth that risk to "pull a fast one" or "get one over". imagine the casino manager was a real prick and wanted to keep your deposit too...just cuz you wouldn't ask for it clarified beforehand. be a smartass all you want with a no-deposit bonus, because you aren't risking anything, but when your money's in their hands, you gotta wal... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: chuchu59 at October 3, 2007, 4:55 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Some casinos will be willing to cough up when they are in for the long haul and it can only kick themselves for wording the Ts and Cs like that. However, this particular casino takes full advantage of the situation with a reason that simply doesnt make sense. If the games are permitted although they do not contribute to WRs, it should be interpreted that way and the casino should pay up. I cannot see how this could be interpreted as the games being disallowed before WRs are met. If the casino insists that it is right, it should regard him as playing without a bonus so they can deduct his whole bonus and half his winnings from his withdrawal assuming that evey bet he made was a mixture of half bonus, half deposit. Incidentally, one of the rogues (cant remember whether it was Virtual) denied a players winnings because he played disallowed games even after meeting WRs.
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| Posted by: happygobrokey at October 3, 2007, 4:32 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by chuchu59
Honestly, I cannot see how the casino can use these terms to deny winnings. HGB is right. How stupid can they get. What is the purpose of saying that play at other games will count towards WRs after they are actually met. The mind boggles.
If the player is deemed not to have completed WRs at least they should give him half of the winnings since they have explicitly stated that they would deduct the bonus and winnings generated by the bonus which means that the bonus did not figure in the play.
Simply put, if their English isnt good enough, get someone who is to rewrite the terms and conditions. Otherwise, pay up and regard this as a lesson earned.
little freudian slip there?
both are in the wrong, or both are in the right. the casino should have to make its terms crystal clear. but a player should, where a term is questionably worded, get clarification.
how often has it been discussed here that it'... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: chuchu59 at October 3, 2007, 4:28 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Disagreements are bound to occur especially in an open forum like this. Reasoning should be brought to the fore instead of neg. rep. IMO, these should be saved for posters who spam or those who have gone overboard and used abusive language or have thrashed other posters senselessly.
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| Posted by: SlotsWizard at October 3, 2007, 3:58 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by chuchu59
Honestly, I cannot see how the casino can use these terms to deny winnings. HGB is right. How stupid can they get. What is the purpose of saying that play at other games will count towards WRs after they are actually met. The mind boggles.
If the player is deemed not to have completed WRs at least they should give him half of the winnings since they have explicitly stated that they would deduct the bonus and winnings generated by the bonus which means that the bonus did not figure in the play.
Simply put, if their English isnt good enough, get someone who is to rewrite the terms and conditions. Otherwise, pay up and regard this as a lesson earned.
I agree that it would be nice if rogue casinos followed their own T&C's, but it would be even better if they weren't in business in the first place. My earlier posts were misinterpreted as "protecting the rogues" by a few well-meaning yet misguided individuals be... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: chuchu59 at October 3, 2007, 3:19 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by guymiz
If you look at the terms at Metro casino it says
Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.
http://www.metrocasino.com/bonusfull.html
It is obvious from the terms you can play any game you wish not for the wagering.I played Roueltte and slots and they confiscated my winnings, not honoring their own terms.
I got a reply from the Manager that this phrase is not related to the signup bonus but it says "towards the wagering obligation of the WELCOME BONUS.
"
Here is the answer I got from the Manager:
You have regrettably interpreted our rules incorrectly. The headline at the top of our Welcome Bonus page clearly states that there is a 100% Welcome ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SlotsWizard at October 3, 2007, 2:44 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dancinggoon
If slotswizzards tells you, its your own fault because "all games are permitted" means in reallity "only slots are allowed and all other games oid winnings" and you have should known better, he is just showing us is affiliate face.
Players that use boni for their advantage are bad for his buisness as a affiliate, because he will only earn money if the players are losing money!
With a bonus involved they have better chances to quit with a profit, thats the reason why he tells you to play always without a bonus!
Its a pitty that affiliates like him are backing rogueoperations and bashing unexperianced players like guymiz!
You couldn't possibly be more ignorant.
Firstly, I don't know how many times I need to state this but I will repeat it a third time in bold text so that maybe you can see it:
I agree that the wording of the rule is AMBIGUOUS. Look at that, I've even been ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: happygobrokey at October 3, 2007, 2:00 am | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.
to me this says that after you meet the wagering requirements on slots/keno/mw, that play on other games after this point WILL count towards wagering. this makes no sense because after the wagering is done, there is no obligation left.
so i would say the statement is not crystal clear.
i would also say that they are including this statement allowing other games so that, provided you make it through wagering on slots, that you will go on to other games and lose it all back. the term is not clear enough to convey that excluded games mustn't be played until after playthrough, but at the same time you know the casino has the key to you getting your winnings.
if your boss at work sai... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: pangloss at October 2, 2007, 11:59 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by SlotsWizard
Again, I agree that the wording of the rule is ambiguous. However, considering this person's location - one that is usually excluded from playing bonuses in the first place due to massive amounts of player fraud - I find the whole thing a bit fishy.
The T+Cs are crystal clear:
Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.
There is no ambuguity here - all games are permitted to be played. Period.
SlotsWizard you are really flying the affiliate colours loud and proud. And by pointing to the player's locale as justification is clutching at straws to say the ery least.
I am not sure how some affiliates sleep at night. Its time for an affiliates Rogue Pit and I think our friend S... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dancinggoon at October 2, 2007, 11:21 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
In my eyes these terms are ery clear, you can play all games if you want, but only slots are counting to the wagering requirements, wich you have to full fill if you want to order a withdral request. Thats it, nothing about games that oid winnings!
If Metro trys to oid winnings, because they think their rules have another meaning, as they are written on their homepage, they are not better as other roguecasinos and should be kicked in the roguepit!
If slotswizzards tells you, its your own fault because "all games are permitted" means in reallity "only slots are allowed and all other games oid winnings" and you have should known better, he is just showing us is affiliate face.
Players that use boni for their advantage are bad for his buisness as a affiliate, because he will only earn money if the players are losing money!
With a bonus involved they have better chances to quit with a profit, thats the reason why he tells you to play always without a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SlotsWizard at October 2, 2007, 10:04 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by sdaddy
Exactly. I don't know how that language doesn't mean exactly what it says - that you're permitted to play any game, but must complete the WR only on certain ones that count. I'm sorry to see that others aren't coming to your defense here.
I understand if people don't like the way you "exploited" the rules, but if you followed them then he should be paid. Period.
Again, I agree that the wording of the rule is ambiguous. However, considering this person's location - one that is usually excluded from playing bonuses in the first place due to massive amounts of player fraud - I find the whole thing a bit fishy.
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| Posted by: sdaddy at October 2, 2007, 9:50 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by guymiz
Why would I have to ask if the terms mentioned PERMITTED TO PLAY OTHER GAMES ?
Exactly. I don't know how that language doesn't mean exactly what it says - that you're permitted to play any game, but must complete the WR only on certain ones that count. I'm sorry to see that others aren't coming to your defense here.
I understand if people don't like the way you "exploited" the rules, but if you followed them then you should be paid. Period.
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| Posted by: lojo at October 2, 2007, 7:54 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Lemme see if I've got this right: People think they can deposit 500, get another 500, play the hell out of games that don't meet the WR, then if they are ahead enough go ahead and meet the WR on the accepted games and expect to get paid their 'winnings'?
Sure, a swarm will come along and say 'that's what it says', but you know damn well that is simply manipulation, loophole slithering, etc.
Sure, sure, sure. Metro - tighten up the T&C, but this is ridiculous. What, is bonus manipulation a freaking career now?
I gots no pity.
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| Posted by: SlotsWizard at October 2, 2007, 7:42 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
No part of your original post contains the phrase "while permitted" so I'm not sure what you are referring to.
The bottom line is, if you interpret the following phrase...
Quote:
any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation
...to mean that you can play ANY game you wish in ANY manner you wish, as long as you complete the wagering requirement on slots afterwards, then you are just asking for trouble.
I completely agree that the wording of the rule is ambiguous - possibly intentionally so - and that it could be interpreted the way you have interpreted it. However, I have also been around long enough to know what the rule actually means, and that is that you cannot play any other game otherwise your winnings will be confiscated and your deposit returned.
So, consider this a lesson learned. You got your deposits back, they could have kept those as well. In the future, make sure to interpret the rule as... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: guymiz at October 2, 2007, 7:34 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
If the situtation was that it said those game would not count towards wagering then it is not obvious but here it says WHILE PERMITTED
Why would I have to ask if the terms mentioned PERMITTED TO PLAY OTHER GAMES ?
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| Posted by: SlotsWizard at October 2, 2007, 7:30 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by guymiz
It is obvious from the terms you can play any game you wish
It is not obvious. There are literally hundreds of posts about casinos confiscating wins because they have that magic phrase in their T&C which bonus whores always try to use against the casinos.
Whenever you see this phrase, what you need to do is go into live chat and ask them if it's okay for you to bet your entire (deposit+bonus) balance on a single Roulette spin or hand of Blackjack and if you win, grind out the wagering requirement at low-stake slots, and be able to withdraw without any problems. If they agree, make sure to get a copy of the chat transcript in writing.
For future reference, no casino will agree to this. It is always better to assume that you are not allowed to play on the excluded games, or at the ery least, just ask for clarification from live chat.
Better yet - don't play with a bonus! But if you must, just be aware that 99... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: guymiz at October 2, 2007, 7:22 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
well lojo, what he meant is obviously not profit but WAGERING as he the terms mentioned wagering not balance and not profits
It says would count towards wagering thatsfine, and also the terms said
PERMITTED while permitted...
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| Posted by: lojo at October 2, 2007, 7:07 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
That is confusing... is he saying that you built up your bankroll on roulette, then used those 'winnings' to play through your wagering requirements on the games that count? If so
Quote:
Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.
may be meant to include any profits earned from play on roulette. hmmm
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| Posted by: guymiz at October 2, 2007, 6:59 pm | | Topic: Metro wouldn't pay $6600 Forum: Casino Meister |
If you look at the terms at Metro casino it says
Play at any of our other games is permitted however please note that until you have met our wagering requirement by playing on our Progressive Slots, Keno and Money Wheel, any play on other games will NOT count towards the wagering obligation of the Welcome Bonus.
http://www.metrocasino.com/bonusfull.html
It is obvious from the terms you can play any game you wish not for the wagering.I played Roueltte and slots and they confiscated my winnings, not honoring their own terms.
I got a reply from the Manager that this phrase is not related to the signup bonus but it says "towards the wagering obligation of the WELCOME BONUS.
"
Here is the answer I got from the Manager:
You have regrettably interpreted our rules incorrectly. The headline at the top of our Welcome Bonus page clearly states that there is a 100% Welcome Bonus on our Slots, Keno and Money Wheel games. Ind... | | Read Entire Entry |
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