| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 28, 2008, 11:42 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
Why bother commenting if it's in code?
LOL, how did you manage to get banned this time? Must be the casino stuff, it goes over my head, I avoid most of it, casinomeister, duh. Nah, I just cant work out the reels, Meister did yo ask what I suggested and get all sites to stick to 3 bells?
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| Posted by: lojo at January 28, 2008, 11:20 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bryand
I read the first few posts in the thread and to kill the last 15 minutes at work I ended up reading all of them. Being a longtime casino customer but a newbie on this site I am no authority other than working 20 years in a profession that deals in logical reasoning. This forum's current agenda is beginning to come into focus, irregardless of its original purpose.
Why bother commenting if it's in code?
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| Posted by: bryand at January 28, 2008, 11:15 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I read the first few posts in the thread and to kill the last 15 minutes at work I ended up reading all of them. Being a longtime casino customer but a newbie on this site I am no authority other than working 20 years in a profession that deals in logical reasoning. This forum's current agenda is beginning to come into focus, irregardless of its original purpose.
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| Posted by: Casinomeister at January 28, 2008, 9:02 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by ftg
This would be my last message here in Casinomeister. I decided to quit here...
It's kind of hard to quit when you're being banned anyway.
What is unfortunate is that we have a long time member taking everyone in this forum for a ride. As Max mentioned, there are chat records that negate this claim 100% - Max was kind enough to save this player embarrassment by not paraphrasing what was said. Even so, ftg continued to press this issue - even having the gall to express his disappointment etc.
The player knew about this 10 max limit in advance and was pushing this casino to pay this amount because of losses elsewhere.
That's it in a nutshell - and according to Club World, he was ahead.
As for being an old time player/member - this doesnt make any difference when you lodge a bogus complaint. Call it zero tolerance - bye.
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| Posted by: Casinomeister at January 28, 2008, 9:01 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by ftg
This would be my last message here in Casinomeister. I decided to quit here...
It's kind of hard to quit when you're being banned anyway.
What is unfortunate is that we have a long time member taking everyone in this forum for a ride. As Max mentioned, there are chat records that negate this claim 100% - Max was kind enough to save this player embarrassment by not paraphrasing what was said. Even so, ftg continued to press this issue - even having the gall to express his disappointment etc.
The player knew about this 10 max limit in advance and was pushing this casino to pay this amount because of losses elsewhere.
That's it in a nutshell - and according to Club World, he was ahead.
As for being an old time player/member - this doesnt make any difference when you lodge a bogus complaint. Call it zero tolerance - bye.
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| Posted by: ftg at January 28, 2008, 2:35 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
This would be my last message here in Casinomeister. I decided to quit here.
Max, you are inclined to them. You should know why.
Have you ever asked me a question regarding this PaB? No.
Have you clarify with me for the 10x thing and bonus codes? No.
For the 10x thing, I have explained.
For guessing the bonus code, I will tell you the story here.
The bonus code stuff happened during Dec 07. After I get the loyalty bonus and lost, I did try to guess the bonus codes, but that's a "try for fun" trial and I had no intention to cash out anything from them and that's why I just wagered them (as far as I can remember, 3 coupons codes were involved) away in a few minutes. The wagering style for this coupons codes were ery different than my normal way of wagering.
And after that I did contacted Live Chat immediately and told them that there's a security hole there. The live chat said that he would inform management and would ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Nifty29 at January 28, 2008, 1:29 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Its time to pack it in ftg - just take the $500 and be happy you even got that after claiming coupons you weren't entitled to (or better yet - send it to me ). Most casinos, especially RTG, would have closed your account and kept all the winnings quicker than you can say Pitch A Bitch.
** FYI **
There is some confusion about 'loyalty bonus' and 'loyalty points' in this thread.
ftg was given $50 out of his loyalty bonus (which is the amount you get each month which is some % of your losses or deposits of the previous month).As this is a bonus, the 10x cashout applies.
The loyalty points at RTG are called comp points and are completely different, and they dont carry a max cashout (as they are based purely on your wagering)
I have always been aware of the 10x rule for no deposit bonuses, and have been playing there since they opened. As much as I hate the max cashout rule (and why I dont play RTG like I used to), ultimately the onus is on the player to... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 28, 2008, 1:00 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I would have thought a player clever enough to "crack" the promotional codes would be clever enough NOT to slip up on a 10x max cashout rule. I can now see what Max was getting at when telling us that maybe we did no thave the whole story on this.
I find it odd that this $50 bonus was given in the first place, as I would have expected a bonus ban to have been imposed for the earlier issue of "cracked" coupon codes.
ClubWorld need to look again at their security, as it is not actually THAT hard to find out the coupon codes, and if the software is not checking for them being applicable in the cashier, then ftg would have been better off continuing to "crack" the codes rather than drawing attention to themselves by asking CS for extra boni, and prompting an account investigation.
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| Posted by: suzecat at January 28, 2008, 12:38 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Waded through this chit hoping someone else would say what I had been thinking. Ftg got a $50 free chip (which everyone knows has a 10x max cash out) and then complains because he had "won" more than $500 that he could not keep! Bloody hell! Ftg, as one player to another, it may be time that you take a break from gambling and regain some perspective.
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| Posted by: heatherad at January 27, 2008, 7:59 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by maxd
Yes, sorry, the confusion is probably my fault.
I wanted to indicate that the case was closed -- as in our involvement with it was complete and had come to an end -- but the thread was still open for discussion.
I could lock the thread down too but that hardly seems fair or respectful to the people who participated in it.
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
The case is closed. I think Max left the thread open so anyone with any question as to why would be satisfied. I know I am. He could have easily just banned ftg as a fraudster and closed the thread. ('guessing' coupon codes=fraud imo) I don't see any more to disgust.. I mean discuss.
Thank you both for the clarification. I confused Closed with being Locked.
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| Posted by: maxd at January 27, 2008, 7:31 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by heatherad
I thought this thread was closed?
Yes, sorry, the confusion is probably my fault.
I wanted to indicate that the case was closed -- as in our involvement with it was complete and had come to an end -- but the thread was still open for discussion.
I could lock the thread down too but that hardly seems fair or respectful to the people who participated in it.
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| Posted by: lojo at January 27, 2008, 6:46 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
The case is closed. I think Max left the thread open so anyone with any question as to why would be satisfied. I know I am. He could have easily just banned ftg as a fraudster and closed the thread. ('guessing' coupon codes=fraud imo) I don't see any more to disgust.. I mean discuss.
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| Posted by: maxd at January 27, 2008, 4:44 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by ftg
max, you can post whatever you want but you also forget I have responded to you PM, especially for the point "I knew the 10x thing".
Yes, well, suffice it to say that I did not forget our PM exchange nor did I forget that what you said in the PM and what you imply here are hardly the same thing.
As to me posting "whatever you want" I think you're quite missing the point. I haven't posted anything really, just urging you to be forthright about your relationship with Clubworld before and during this fiasco.
In any case nothing has changed: as you know they've said "Case Closed". Based on my face-to-face discussions with them and a review of their chat transcripts with you I agree with them. I believe we, and they, have been fair and thorough in this case and are satisfied with our decision.
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| Posted by: tim5ny at January 27, 2008, 2:19 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by ftg
I will always rule in the favour of the player where there is any doubt. The most obvious example of which was when you claimed over $600 in bonus chips by guessing the coupon codes for loyalty bonuses you were not invited to claim. I took no further action in this case.
__________________
www.clubworldcasinos.com [/b]
Am I reading this right? This statement makes it sound like theft by the player. Why were you even allowed to have an account after doing this? I must be missing something.
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| Posted by: ftg at January 27, 2008, 11:00 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bb28
FTG.....I understand your frustration and disappointment but you are beating a dead horse so to speak. Don't you think it would be best for you to just let it go now? There is nothing else you can do at this point.....so why not just let it rest!
Thanks, bb28.
I rasied the issue because I thought there is a case. I am not those who take any cases up.
You know, when I first chatted to Stephen and Charlie of Clubworld, if they did point me to where they had the 10x thing, I just would say "OK. I don't know the terms, you e-mail didn't include the terms but your web site did say this 10x thing" and I would let it go.
But they changed ther terms page and then did nothing.
And now even say the track record thing.
I admit they have been overall good to me and their customer has been good until this case. But so what?
===========================
Yes. Perhaps it... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ftg at January 27, 2008, 10:52 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by maxd
Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.
OK. I think I need to respond to this directly after a second thought, though I think it has nothing to do with this particular bonus issue.
I received two PM from Steve Morgan, the Casino Manager where you can find the track record underlined.
The first PM responding to my enquiry after failing to get it resolved with Charlie:
15th January 2008, 10:55 PM
Re: Can you help my issue with your casino?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear xxx,
Thank you for contacting me.
I have reviewed this case thoroughly I have come to the conclusion that you were not treated unfairly.
The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available. There has always been a maximum cashout of 10x the b... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ftg at January 27, 2008, 10:44 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by maxd
Tell them how you behaved towards the Clubworld support staff..
I admit that I did say improper words to the support staff but that's a few days after my complaint, after they have stopped to respond.
But did they tell you that in the first day I talked to them (Stephen and Charlie) I have been ery polite?
Did they tell you that I call their phone no. and talked to Charlie for 30 minutes and the conversation has been ery normal?
Quote:
Tell them the _real_ reasons you gave for going after Clubworld in this particular instance.
Max, you are also mixed up.
The real reason they gave me had always been the 10x thing has been "well known" and "available".
It's well known, perhaps. So we judge the terms by well-known reaons, no more black and white.
It's definitely not avalabe at the time I received the bonus and at the time I made th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ftg at January 27, 2008, 10:20 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I don't know why you conclude before you have the right information. You think I captured all screens then was unware of this point?
Please check out this first:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/212932-post72.html
And if you are still unhappy with that, I can give you the source code of the page. I also saved a copy of it.
BR>14. In the event of a
dispute, all decisions made by the casino will be
final.<BR><BR>Bonus terms regarding no deposit bonuses and
forum bonuses can be found by clicking <A class=Link
href="http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/Promotions.aspx">here</A><BR><BR></TD>
<TD width=50></TD></TR>
<TR height=20>
Quote: Originally Posted by SlotsWizard
The link to the T&C page which applies to the non-deposit bonus you used is clearly isible in the last screenshot you posted. They did not add this pa... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: ftg at January 27, 2008, 10:14 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
max, you can post whatever you want but you also forget I have responded to you PM, especially for the point " I knew the 10x thing".
Quote: Originally Posted by maxd
ftg, you can post all the screencaps you like but you're still not being candid with those who have given you their time and attention in this thread.
Tell them how you behaved towards the Clubworld support staff.
Tell them the _real_ reasons you gave for going after Clubworld in this particular instance.
Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.
And last but not least, tell them what you admitted to Clubworld staff regarding your knowledge of the 10x max withdrawal and it's relevance to this particular complaint.
When you have been forthright with this information then I think the readers will have a clearer picture of what went on. Until then you're not being respectful of th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SlotsWizard at January 27, 2008, 6:50 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
The link to the T&C page which applies to the non-deposit bonus you used is clearly isible in the last screenshot you posted. They did not add this page right after you submitted your withdrawal request. It is listed in the July 2007 archived snapshot of the page. The only thing it appears they did after your complaint was add the term in a second location, making it redundant.
I don't see what's so confusing about that. You didn't look in the right spot for the T&C that applied to your bonus.
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| Posted by: maxd at January 27, 2008, 6:48 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
ftg, you can post all the screencaps you like but you're still not being candid with those who have given you their time and attention in this thread.
Tell them how you behaved towards the Clubworld support staff.
Tell them the _real_ reasons you gave for going after Clubworld in this particular instance.
Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.
And last but not least, tell them what you admitted to Clubworld staff regarding your knowledge of the 10x max withdrawal and it's relevance to this particular complaint.
When you have been forthright with this information then I think the readers will have a clearer picture of what went on. Until then you're not being respectful of those who have acted in good faith to try and help you.
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| Posted by: ftg at January 27, 2008, 6:27 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Hi all,
I emphasize once again:
1. Clubworld changed their web page for the T&C immediately after my complaint. See below for the T&C I captured immediately after I spoke to Charlie (the Support Manager).
2. At the time I chatted to Stephen (live chat) and spoke to Charlie. They failed to point out where the 10x rule was.
3. Steve (Casino Manager) used "The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available." excuse to made a final decision to forfeite my $1600.
Re: Can you help my issue with your casino?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear xxx,
Thank you for contacting me.
I have reviewed this case thoroughly I have come to the conclusion that you were not treated unfairly.
The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available. There has always been a maximum ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: SlotsWizard at January 27, 2008, 2:32 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
If comps have a max cashout, I will be reassessing anyway.
No place worth their salt should put a WR or max cashout on comps. They're difficult enough to get in the first place, unless you bet $100/spin and play thousands of spins per session.
The only truly decent slot comps these days can be found at Rival casinos.
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| Posted by: lojo at January 27, 2008, 2:01 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I suppose that if the terms were on the website (as shown by SW) when ftg redeemed the chip as a free chip, then the casino was within their rights to deny anything beyond 10x the chip. And though ftg may have had a reasonable expectation to only be bound by the readily isible terms, it is the player's responsibility to fully investigate all offers. Communication with the casino would most likely have informed him of the limiting clause.
As well, if the free chip was 'converted' from loyalty points, and loyalty points have no max cashout, then they are probably technically okay too. The key point being 'converted'. As a matter of opinion only - I do not consider that fair IF the early converted comps would have had no max cashout if played as comps/loyalty points. I consider this unfair and will be assessing any future personal recommendations or play at Clubworld. If comps have a max cashout, I will be reassessing anyway.
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| Posted by: SlotsWizard at January 27, 2008, 1:33 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
The appropriate page in the web archive (link) indicates that the term has been in place at least since July of 2007:
Quote:
Max cash-out of free chips is 10x the amount of the chip
That said, this group seems to have declined since the new owners took over. Is there some sort of process in place to review the status of Accredited Casinos once they change hands?
For example, if iNetBet were to sell their casino to the best friend of the cousin of the current owner of the Virtual Group, would iNetBet remain accredited before the complaints started piling up?
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 27, 2008, 1:27 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
This max cashout rule is ery common with RTG casinos. This often means their bonus rules can get ery complicated indeed, and are clearly not designed for the casual player, but for the more experienced ones.
The ast majority outside RTG (and Playtech), do not have nearly so many complications, and with MG (using the bonus system) and Cryptologic there should be no problems with max cashouts, and second guessing WR.
A free chip with Microgaming has clear rules under EZBonus, and no max cashout, they are not given out as freely though.
When I joined ClubWorld through GG, the terms, including the max cashout rule, were there, but it took quite some time to track them all down because of the three different locations, and the fact that each bonus code had it's own separate set of rules, which would often differ from each other. This is the RTG trick, it is designed to appeal to clever players, but hit complacent players who tend to "assume", based on the general terms, r... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: winbig at January 27, 2008, 1:24 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by elscrabinda
I'm sure we'd appreciate it if ftg (as Max says it would be inappropriate for him to do it himself) could explain what he has been told and what their explanation for this is.
Otherwise there's a risk that people read this thread and think that what ClubWorld did was in some way justified, which based on the facts that we have (incomplete maybe) it clearly wasn't.
Great point. I don't think we're hearing the whole story here, based on these new facts that Max presented.
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| Posted by: elscrabinda at January 27, 2008, 12:59 am | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I'm sure we'd appreciate it if ftg (as Max says it would be inappropriate for him to do it himself) could explain what he has been told and what their explanation for this is.
Otherwise there's a risk that people read this thread and think that what ClubWorld did was in some way justified, which based on the facts that we have (incomplete maybe) it clearly wasn't.
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| Posted by: ftg at January 26, 2008, 9:36 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I am ery disappointed at this.
Max, please discuss with Clubworld and confirm that
1. They change their terms on the page after my complaint
2. They forfeited my winnings of $16000.
If they admit these two and still think that they are correct and you support this, I will quite Clubworld as well as Casinomeister.
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| Posted by: maxd at January 26, 2008, 6:48 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
To whom it may concern,
At the ICE conference in London this past week I had an opportunity talk, in depth, with the Clubworld people. In particular we discussed the complaint that ftg raised here on the forum.
The bottom line is that they have iewed and reviewed this player's complaint and their conclusion remains the same. Based on the information they shared with me I support their conclusion and have explained in some detail to the OP why. Since those details center on the private communications between the player and the casino, and are somewhat personal in nature, I leave it to the OP to explain their situation to the readership as they see fit.
In light of this I am closing this issue, at least insofar as the OP's complaint goes.
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| Posted by: RobWin at January 26, 2008, 2:45 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Mousey
Yeah, well, they were going to give me a free chip since I couldn't get a deposit to go through, but strangely enough... I never got it. LOL I had a small cash out a couple of months ago, so didn't really expect one.
A free chip at any RTG casino has scared me to death for years because of the max cash out rule. (I just know that if I ever hit a RJ it will be when I'm playing a $5 free St. Pat's holiday chip or something. ) And most RTGs have a max cashout with ANY bonus. **shudder** You have to be so careful....
Damn, that's just what I was thinking about yesterday Mousey as I was playing on a small free chip they had gave me. I was thinking that it would just be my damn luck to hit a $9,000.00 RJ while I was playing so I couldn't stand the thought any longer and switched over to cards....
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| Posted by: Mousey at January 26, 2008, 2:36 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bb28
This thread must have caused a pretty big stink because last week I had deposit issues.......(like so many other people are still having) and I received a free chip ia chat for my troubles. The person that I was speaking to in chat did note that the ND chip had a 10x max cashout. That is the 1st time I recall ever seeing a statement to that effect in chat.
Yeah, well, they were going to give me a free chip since I couldn't get a deposit to go through, but strangely enough... I never got it. LOL I had a small cash out a couple of months ago, so didn't really expect one.
A free chip at any RTG casino has scared me to death for years because of the max cash out rule. (I just know that if I ever hit a RJ it will be when I'm playing a $5 free St. Pat's holiday chip or something. ) And most RTGs have a max cashout with ANY bonus. **shudder** You have to be so careful....
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| Posted by: ftg at January 26, 2008, 2:11 pm | | Topic: [CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600 Forum: Casino Meister |
I am losing confidence on online casinos.
Over the last few years, I have been quite positive on this industry. There are many rougue operations, I know but I thought as long as I avoid those rougue, there's nothing to worry about and that's why I had apparently no dispute with the casinos in the past.
But now even an accreditated casino listed here behavor so disappointedly?
Perhaps it's time to quite.......
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