| Posted by: vinylweatherman at February 5, 2008, 3:09 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by dominique
This is the age old issue of casinos trying to defend themselves against fraudulent players and innocents getting caught up in the profile.
My solution would be simple and clear:
Disallow multiple bonuses across the group as a firm rule.
Install the "one signup for all casinos" software.
Hand out surprise gifts to players as retention effort instead of the multiple signup bonuses.
Personally, I hate getting bogged down with wagering requirements, it ruins all the fun, you are just clicking away hoping you'll make it instead of enjoying the game.
But I do love a gift in my account... especially one I didn't expect.
That would be my solution....
It seems casinos want it both ways though, they benefit from having a number of separate casinos in their group either to widen the net for attracting players, or getting their loyal players playing at all the... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: dominique at February 5, 2008, 1:04 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
This is the age old issue of casinos trying to defend themselves against fraudulent players and innocents getting caught up in the profile.
My solution would be simple and clear:
Disallow multiple bonuses across the group as a firm rule.
Install the "one signup for all casinos" software.
Hand out surprise gifts to players as retention effort instead of the multiple signup bonuses.
Personally, I hate getting bogged down with wagering requirements, it ruins all the fun, you are just clicking away hoping you'll make it instead of enjoying the game.
But I do love a gift in my account... especially one I didn't expect.
That would be my solution....
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| Posted by: GaryWatson at February 5, 2008, 4:10 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
I dont think I could safely accept a bonus. I have played on many sites for the sake of it. The free 1hour of play etc. I have never collected even if I have won but there are times when I lost. I dont take a note of the sites I have played on. It has been spread over many years.
I am not into bonus hunting & not intentionally abusing the system with multiple accounts.
Would I be considered a bonus abuser if I made my first deposit and collected a bonus I have used but not taken advantage of?
Would I be considered to have multiple accounts if only my latest one was used to deposit?
I remember the poker sites I have played at but all the casino sites are just a blur, of the same.
I am now in the position that I am weary to accept any casino bonus although I have not cashed any
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| Posted by: pacers31 at February 5, 2008, 3:33 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Personally, I will only take bonuses at a couple of places. The WR at most places ensure that you cannot come out ahead by using them. I find that playing for straight cash and getting paid straight cash is my best policy!
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| Posted by: TDTAT at February 5, 2008, 1:53 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by scrabble73
No affiliate should be promoting this group of sites, especially since promoting the group together will just cause their players to have all their money stolen.
I suggest to BelleRock that they address these issues
quickly as their banners are coming down quickly on my sites..
I was unaware of these issues and as an affiliate do not tolerate shady
behavior from any casinos.. (Edit: I was aware of the one bonus per group term,
but not of the placement of the terms)
If or if not the terms are there, just having them in the user aggreement is not
sufficient and is not the sign of a casino that wants happy players. This info should be clear and prominent.
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| Posted by: BBKPoker at February 5, 2008, 1:03 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
To illustrate, I went from start to finish from jackpotcity.com creating an account to see where players are supposedly forced to accept the terms:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2243216222/
Signup page.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2243216236/
First half of the signup screen.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2242424727
Second half of the signup screen (notice, they have no tick box that you agree/accept their terms prior to hitting Submit).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23559834@N08/2242424741/
And finally, registration successful, no terms anywhere in then signup process. as the rep is claiming.
On a sidenote, sorry I couldn't post the imgs in here directly, I'm apparently terrible at UBB code and it doesn't accept HTML.
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| Posted by: BBKPoker at February 5, 2008, 12:44 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Alright, I was intrigued enough by this, so here is what I did:
I went to www.jackpotcity.com which redirected to this URL:
http://www.jackpotcity.com/casino/eng/index.aspx
I clicked the download button. I got a pop-up with the casino software download, there was nothing confirming or requiring me to agree to the terms and conditions anywhere so far.
I opened the casino software and got this page:
END USER LICENCE AGREEMENT
1. Licence
1.1. You are licensed to download and use this Microgaming front-end software (the ‘software’) to play Microgaming games at sites that are licensed to use Microgaming software. You may also copy the software for this purpose. This licence is granted subject to all of the terms and conditions in this End User Licence. Please read them carefully.
2. Restrictions
2.1. All rights in the software are reserved, and you may use the software only as licensed to you. Save as is expres... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RobWin at February 5, 2008, 12:34 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by scrabble73
I complained to eCogra who literally couldn't be bothered to do anymore than copy/paste the 5.6 term from the general terms and conditions completely at 100% ignoring the fact that they appear nowhere on the promotional page, and break ecogras rules regarding clearly posting their promotional terms.
These kinds of tactics are the lowest of the low. I have PAB'd with MaxD but haven't heard anything back from them or Max aside from a pm from him that he forwarded it to the rep and hasn't heard anything. No affiliate should be promoting this group of sites, especially since promoting the group together will just cause their players to have all their money stolen.
I'm absolutely irate, and I'm certainly complaining to Gibraltar since eCogra couldn't be bothered to give me a remotely satisfactory answer.
It sure would be nice to see an eCOGRA Rep here at Casinomeister to comment on the bolded text above...I know I would li... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: scrabble73 at February 5, 2008, 12:21 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
I complained to eCogra who literally couldn't be bothered to do anymore than copy/paste the 5.6 term from the general terms and conditions completely at 100% ignoring the fact that they appear nowhere on the promotional page, and break ecogras rules regarding clearly posting their promotional terms.
These kinds of tactics are the lowest of the low. I have PAB'd with MaxD but haven't heard anything back from them or Max aside from a pm from him that he forwarded it to the rep and hasn't heard anything. No affiliate should be promoting this group of sites, especially since promoting the group together will just cause their players to have all their money stolen.
I'm absolutely irate, and I'm certainly complaining to Gibraltar since eCogra couldn't be bothered to give me a remotely satisfactory answer.
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| Posted by: edlonger at January 28, 2008, 12:47 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
I submitted documents to them for a cashout from two places (River Belle and Jackpot City) and they locked my accounts and returned only one of the deposits?!
They then said they didn't get the documents and I had to resend them just now.
This is stupid
Should I "pitch a bitch" soon? They issued me bonuses at both places so I should be good to go?
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 26, 2008, 10:57 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by GaryWatson
Personally, I look closely at the TOS but I could still get caught out with their predatory attitude. I couldnt tell you what site I played on a few weeks ago, never mind a year ago. I only play the occassional Casino game. If I am registered with one of their partner sites, It normally tells me I already have a bonus at another site and am not elligable.
I agree, it is as much the sites fault for not checking before accepting the player. This confiscation scenario is getting a bit tiresome. It looks as though many are using it just to claim revenue.
The problem is that players still believe the casino story of it being "casual entertainment". They should treat their online gambling as they would treat a tax return. Keep permanent records of ALL accounts ever registered, and also keep records of any "bonus bans" that have been received. These records will serve their purpose whe some clueless idiot (or rogue ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 25, 2008, 11:08 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Personally, I look closely at the TOS but I could still get caught out with their predatory attitude. I couldnt tell you what site I played on a few weeks ago, never mind a year ago. I only play the occassional Casino game. If I am registered with one of their partner sites, It normally tells me I already have a bonus at another site and am not elligable.
I agree, it is as much the sites fault for not checking before accepting the player. This confiscation scenario is getting a bit tiresome. It looks as though many are using it just to claim revenue.
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| Posted by: scrabble73 at January 25, 2008, 10:54 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
When casino-on-net launched Reef Club, (and continues on with an excellent post
Thank you ery much. Also, to the others who have private messaged me, and suggested complaining to Gibraltar regarding the layout of the terms, and what VWM in particular has posted in this thread about the term being excisable.
I will absolutely be pursuing a case with Gibraltar over this issue unless their representative sees the light and pays me what I am owed.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 24, 2008, 12:08 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by RobWin
I was around back then and used all the individual bonuses seperately at each casino. Hell back then the casinos would not even admit to being associated with another in the same group and would even go as far as denying any association.
I certainly think that it would be to Bellerocks benefit to pay attention to this thread...
When casino-on-net launched Reef Club, it was marketed aggressively by an exit pop-up from the casino-on-net website. Players pretty much had the Reef Club bonus rammed down their throat. Soon, Reef Club starting screwing over some of the players, and then Casino-on-net flatly denied ANY kind of association with Reef Club other than by software. This lie was so ery obvious, since NO online casino would aggressively market it's own players to a direct competitor. The fact they thought players would swallow this was an insult to our intelligence. Their reputation has never really recovered, and even being based... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RobWin at January 24, 2008, 6:55 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
In the past, it was generally the rule that players could claim ALL the sign-up bonuses within the casino group. Casinos were marketed individually, with little reference to the group as a whole. This worked well for the industry, as they could make more money from an individual player if they played several accounts. It is only in the last year or two that the position has changed, and it is now the general rule that you can ONLY have ONE bonus over entire casino groups.
I was around back then and used all the individual bonuses seperately at each casino. Hell back then the casinos would not even admit to being associated with another in the same group and would even go as far as denying any association.
I certainly think that it would be to Bellerocks benefit to pay attention to this thread...
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| Posted by: RobWin at January 24, 2008, 6:44 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
And it would take how many words to, as a courtesy, actually remind the user (on the promotional page) of this before they make their first deposit and claim the SUB?
Karma goes a looooooooooong ways. Courtesies do as well.
Think about it, would you rather have a CUSTOMER remember your group as the one that seized $x,xxx of winnings, or as a group that went the extra mile and made sure there was no confusion as to whether or not they were entitled to a bonus BEFORE the fact?
Edit: While we're on the subject, if the whole group only allows one SUB per casino (this goes for any group), then why not simply have one login that works at all of the casinos in the group? A lot less confusion there.
That's what's nice about playing at the Grand Prive Group of casinos...they have had this in place for quite some time now...
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| Posted by: RobWin at January 24, 2008, 6:40 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
The casino broke it's terms by granting the additional bonus in the first place. If the CASINO can't get it right, why should the players be expected to be 100% perfect.
That's purdy damn plain and simple there Bellerock.....
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| Posted by: MJackson at January 24, 2008, 6:19 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
I've always been amused by the stunning contradiction between what the casinos claim is the "spirit of the bonus offer" namely something along the lines of "for entertainment and to prolong the gaming experience" and what by it's ery nature it is to read and fully comprehend the promotional and general terms and conditions.
Although Belle Rock does not directly state in it's terms that the purpose of it's bonuses is for entertainment and to prolong the gaming experience thus attracting loyal customers, I am assuming that they would agree with those commonly given reasons as also being their own.
So if the purpose of the bonus offer is for entertainment and prolonging the gaming experience in an effort to attract loyal customers then why would you require of them an excercise that would likely only be entertaining to lawyers and bonus seekers who are "entertained" chiefly by monetary profit?
Quote:
1.1.7. You hereby authorize... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 19, 2008, 7:33 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by BBKPoker
Not to mention the fact that many web portals, affiliates, webmasters etc, advertise these sites together. I'd imagine Bellerock themselves have some sort of promotional link that includes more than one Bellerock site and could easily lead to multiple signups.
I'd also wager that Bellerock selectively enforces this T&C and doesn't steal from the people they want to return.
Indeed BelleRock do just that. They have all four with tabbed browsing access the summary of all 4 bonuses, there is nothing to suggest that there is anything wrong with taking all four. As for the GENERAL terms and conditions, well, they are only accessible "below the fold", and are not any more prominent than the other links at the bottom.
Why are terms and conditions hidden "below the fold" in this manner, why do they not have a prominent link at the top, isible as soon as the browser displays the page. Sometimes it seems th... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: BBKPoker at January 19, 2008, 12:04 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by inylweatherman
In the past, it was generally the rule that players could claim ALL the sign-up bonuses within the casino group. Casinos were marketed individually, with little reference to the group as a whole. This worked well for the industry, as they could make more money from an individual player if they played several accounts. It is only in the last year or two that the position has changed, and it is now the general rule that you can ONLY have ONE bonus over entire casino groups. Players who have just carried on thinking nothing had changed would find out the hard way. Veteran players should not get caught out by these nasty terms, as they should know such things exist, and go looking for them. Naturally, this makes them harder to attract, as they ignore all the software tricks that try to get you to blindly make that first deposit before the casino has even finished installing itself.
It is players new to the industry, who have been used to downlo... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 18, 2008, 4:42 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by anniemac
Meaning no disrespect here, but I knew that you could only collect a signup bonus at 1 of the BelleRock casinos and I, sad to say, am one of the players that don't read the T & C's like I am suppose to. I've been playing at Riverbelle for years so it's been there a while.
Like it's always said here, read the T & C's and take responsibility.
In the past, it was generally the rule that players could claim ALL the sign-up bonuses within the casino group. Casinos were marketed individually, with little reference to the group as a whole. This worked well for the industry, as they could make more money from an individual player if they played several accounts. It is only in the last year or two that the position has changed, and it is now the general rule that you can ONLY have ONE bonus over entire casino groups. Players who have just carried on thinking nothing had changed would find out the hard way. Veteran players should no... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: anniemac at January 18, 2008, 3:26 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Meaning no disrespect here, but I knew that you could only collect a signup bonus at 1 of the BelleRock casinos and I, sad to say, am one of the players that don't read the T & C's like I am suppose to. I've been playing at Riverbelle for years so it's been there a while.
Like it's always said here, read the T & C's and take responsibility.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 18, 2008, 2:36 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by winbig
Compare this to any coupon given out by a retail B&M or any other Internet business.
If the customer doesn't read the fine print on the coupon, does the business honor it, then go to the customer later and take the goods away?
Not.
This is true also of the internet. Sainsburys online changed the rules on coupon codes, and ENFORCED IT THROUGH THE SOFTWARE, it was a simple process.
Any attempt to use an invalid code was instantly rejected with an error message. It was the same problem as this scenario, there were general rules, but customer specific rules were added that would exclude specific customers from generally advertised offers based on their previous purchace and coupon redemption history. BelleRock use an in-house claims process, they have no excuse for not amending it to reject invalid claims. Had they done this, this player would have had the claim rejected, and would probably have played with the depos... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: winbig at January 17, 2008, 2:54 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Compare this to any coupon given out by a retail B&M or any other Internet business.
If the customer doesn't read the fine print on the coupon, does the business honor it, then go to the customer later and take the goods away?
Not.
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 17, 2008, 1:50 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bellerock
Hi All,
In the General Terms and Conditions we state that the casino is part of a bigger group, namely Belle Rock, and that you cannot claim a sign up bonus at more than one casino in the group, or at the same casino by opening accounts in different currencies or languages. When a player opens an account at any of our casinos he/she is required to confirm that they have read the GENERAL Terms and Conditions before the sign up process can be completed. By confirming this the player has agreed that they have read the term in question and they are now aware that they cannot claim the sign up bonus again if they already have an account at a casino in the group. This term is neither ambiguous nor hidden; it is in the terms that every player confirms they have read before they can even consider a promotion offer. When claiming a sign up bonus (usually shortly after opening an account) a player does not have to "ferret out" this term as... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: BBKPoker at January 16, 2008, 11:59 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
I looked through the promotional page and I've got to say I agree.
There is nothing reference that term anywhere on there.
There is a ery alid point that you should be excluding players from promotions from the getgo rather than after they win or lose. Many other Microgamings do this, so why choose a policy that is going to naturally lead to player complaints?
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| Posted by: winbig at January 16, 2008, 11:11 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by bellerock
Hi All,
In the General Terms and Conditions we state that the casino is part of a bigger group, namely Belle Rock, and that you cannot claim a sign up bonus at more than one casino in the group, or at the same casino by opening accounts in different currencies or languages. When a player opens an account at any of our casinos he/she is required to confirm that they have read the GENERAL Terms and Conditions before the sign up process can be completed. By confirming this the player has agreed that they have read the term in question and they are now aware that they cannot claim the sign up bonus again if they already have an account at a casino in the group. This term is neither ambiguous nor hidden; it is in the terms that every player confirms they have read before they can even consider a promotion offer. When claiming a sign up bonus (usually shortly after opening an account) a player does not have to "ferret out" this term as t... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: bellerock at January 16, 2008, 11:08 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Hi All,
In the General Terms and Conditions we state that the casino is part of a bigger group, namely Belle Rock, and that you cannot claim a sign up bonus at more than one casino in the group, or at the same casino by opening accounts in different currencies or languages. When a player opens an account at any of our casinos he/she is required to confirm that they have read the GENERAL Terms and Conditions before the sign up process can be completed. By confirming this the player has agreed that they have read the term in question and they are now aware that they cannot claim the sign up bonus again if they already have an account at a casino in the group. This term is neither ambiguous nor hidden; it is in the terms that every player confirms they have read before they can even consider a promotion offer. When claiming a sign up bonus (usually shortly after opening an account) a player does not have to "ferret out" this term as they have already read it.
I trust this cl... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 12, 2008, 10:12 pm | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
This is clearly wrong. That "trap" term is a PROMOTIONAL condition, and should appear in the PROMOTIONAL terms and conditions.
The terms in the general conditions is a ery long winded way of excluding players from more than one bonus within the group, but does not directly say so, but uses a ery high 100x WR which few players are likely to manage just on their first deposit & bonus.
Membership at one casino causes them to send you mailers for the sign-up bonus in the other three currently accepting new players. King Neptune casino is ALSO part of this group, but is run separately under the general Carmen Media operation, with it being a separate Carmen subsidiary to BelleRock.
Although the term mentions the other casinos, they are not listed. The multiple account part of the terms relates to multiple accounts at a SINGLE CASINO, not SINGLE accounts at each of the four casinos in the group. This makes the term more confusing, as both definitions of "multiple account... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: scrabble73 at January 12, 2008, 4:52 am | | Topic: Misleading Bellerock terms, DO NOT play there. Forum: Casino Meister |
Hello.
I had a cashout at Jackpot City for £790 confiscated from Bellerock.
Their promotional terms are listed here:
http://www.jackpotcity.com/casino/en...s-terms.aspx#2
Their promotional terms do not include a link to their general terms and conditions anywhere. Instead, you'd have to find a tiny link at the bottom center of their page.
Their general terms are here:
http://www.jackpotcity.com/casino/en...s-terms.aspx#2
They decided they were going to confiscate my winnings for the following reason that appears under the GENERAL terms (It does not appear, nor does any other term that has similar erbiage appear under the PROMOTIONAL terms).
"5.6. The Casino is a member of the Belle Rock Entertainment (“BRE”) group of online casinos (the “Group”). You may not claim a sign- up bonus at the Casino if (1) prior to opening an Account at the Casino, you have opened an Account at any other online casino within the Grou... | | Read Entire Entry |
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