| Posted by: jetset at January 16, 2008, 7:23 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
WAY OPEN FOR BWIN FOLLOWING GERMAN COURT DECISION
Austrian public company wins another round of German litigation
The way appears to be open for a resumption of online gambling activities in the German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg by Vienna listed gambling group Bwin, following a favourable judicial ruling this week, reports the Stuttgarter Nachrichten publication.
The Karlsruhe court ruled that Bwin Interactive Entertainment AG is allowed to accept wagers from customers in the German state, overturning a previous judgment forcing the company to stop accepting wagers. The latest ruling instructs that the previous order is not to be executed as such a regionally limited ban is technically not enforceable.
The fight is likely to continue, however as a spokesman told reporters that Baden-Wuerttemberg will appeal the court decision at the administrative court in Mannheim, Germany.
Bwin has around 2 million customers in Germany, and several hundred thousand of... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at January 16, 2008, 12:12 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
GERMANY ACCUSED OF ONLINE GAMBLING BREAK WITH EU PRINCIPLES
EGBA kicks off 2008 with a formal complaint on protectionist German ban
Just two weeks into 2008, and fourteen days since the German ban on online gambling was implemented (see previous InfoPowa reports), Europe's Internet gambling industry has served notice on the Germans that it will contest protectionist bans and has lodged an official complaint with the European Commission.
The complaint centres on the European Union requirement that member nations permit the free movement of goods and services between member nations. On January 1 the 16 German states implemented the ban, which forbids online gambling with the exception of horse racing.
"The European Gaming and Betting Association (EGBA) calls on the European Commission to take swift action against the German Interstate Treaty on gaming," the lobby group said in a statement.
EGBA asserts that the ban "...is in direct contrave... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at January 4, 2008, 2:39 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
GERMAN ONLINE GAMBLING BAN UNCONSTITUTIONAL SAY EXPERTS
Top lawyers confirm that new banning accord contravenes both the German constitution and European law.
With criticism and threats of international litigation mounting, the 16 German states remained under siege today for implementing a New Years Day accord banning online gambling and introducing Internet freedom-sensitive rules.
The boss of UK betting company MyLotto24 - a subsidiary of German giant Tipp24 - Carsten Frein echoed the parent company iew, commenting: “We consider the state treaty on gambling as clearly illegal and will take legal action if necessary.
"Reports by notable constitutional lawyers such as Professor Bodo Pieroth or Professor Hermes confirm that the treaty contravenes the German constitution and European law. The EU and the German Monopolies Commission have also taken up a clear stance in this sense.”
Frein said that there would be no impact on the UK side of the busine... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at January 4, 2008, 7:51 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
THE DIE IS CAST IN GERMANY
German states clamp down on Internet gambling
As reported in InfoPowa bulletins earlier this week, the German states have literally cast the die by imposing a protectionist accord to halt online gambling in the country.
The move is sure to have serious repercussions from major international gambling groups who have threatened to litigate, and the European Commission which has already indicated that the ban is contrary to EU treaty principles on the free passage of services and trade between member nations.
All 16 of Germany’s states have ratified the accord which, as of 1 January, prohibits foreign remote gambling operators from offering their services to German customers. Restrictions have also been placed on the advertising of gambling services in Germany.
The new online gambling laws will be alid until 2011.
Internet censorship sensitivities are also trampled by the accord, which authorises German states to requir... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Zodiac at December 31, 2007, 2:45 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Casinomeister
Seriously, it looks like another big confusing mess. Here is a written opinion (in English) from the offices of Hambach and Hambach which details how this law is unenforceable according to the EU treaty:
http://www.betting-law.de/cms/cms/fr....php?idart=306
i came not on the idea to look at Hambach and Hambach Website where it stands also in English that's why i've linked in german
Quote: Originally Posted by Casinomeister
I believe that there are a number of betting firms lining up to issue formal complaints after the 1st. According to one of Wulf Hambach's statements here:
http://www.isa-casinos.de/articles/1...tsvertrag.html
He represents about 20 firms that are prepared to do so.
Another lawyer, Michael Winkelmüller of Redeker which represents Bwin and Fluxx stated: "I assume that all of the approximately 3000 German market operating gambling companies will initi... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KellyBlend at December 31, 2007, 11:39 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
The most difficult interpretation questions are the conflicts which arise in the interface between German and European law. The published expert opinion to which I posted the link, is likewise written by Hambach and Hambach, but imho the only one which refers in details to the most important questions especially from the poker players iew. Affiliates have a lot of other problems. And it seems already clear that we will experience a long juristic battle marathon.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Casinomeister at December 31, 2007, 10:43 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by KellyBlend
What does this new legislation mean for a German Poker Player?
I know only one expert opinion of a lawyer firm published on the website of a German affiliate (look here).
Since this is a paid-for expert opinion I do not want to copy or cite parts of this opinion. It is also available in German languge only.
However, I will recap some parts as follows:
As of January 1st, 2008 the participation in an online poker play is punishable for a German poker player.
Prerequisite for the punishability is the real money input which is assumed if the money input exceeds a certain bagatelle border (for example, the price of a cinema ticket - this exeption is not stipulated by law but by jurisdiction). The participation in play money games or freerolls cannot be punished.
Furthermore a great chance consists that the participation in an online poker play cannot be pursued criminal when one plays on a... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: KellyBlend at December 31, 2007, 9:47 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
What does this new legislation mean for a German Poker Player?
I know only one expert opinion of a lawyer firm published on the website of a German affiliate (look here).
Since this is a paid-for expert opinion I do not want to copy or cite parts of this opinion. It is also available in German languge only.
However, I will recap some parts as follows:
As of January 1st, 2008 the participation in an online poker play is punishable for a German poker player.
Prerequisite for the punishability is the real money input which is assumed if the money input exceeds a certain bagatelle border (for example, the price of a cinema ticket - this exeption is not stipulated by law but by jurisdiction). The participation in play money games or freerolls cannot be punished.
Furthermore a great chance consists that the participation in an online poker play cannot be pursued criminal when one plays on a poker side with EU licence and the prosecution, theref... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at December 31, 2007, 7:08 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by chuchu59
Hopefully, like mother like son.
Unless he's a William Pitt the Younger, this dynastic move (the guy is 19 years old I believe) is unlikely to improve matters for the Bhutto political party in a ery tough political environment - and his father still has those "Mr. Ten Percent" questions hanging over his head from Benazir's last period in office as Pakistan's leader.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: jetset at December 31, 2007, 7:03 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Simmo!
Or more likely, the EU will let them off so long as they allow European pig farmers to have special markets on Sundays, for Austrian ballet dancers to be able to cross the border without a passport and for Swedish travel companies to be able to advertise freely in German S&M magazines.
Not forgetting that one of the main beneficiaries of the agreement with the USA was DHL, a German company. So there's already a political "trade route" set up
Nah, Simmo - that's the WTO you're thinking of LOL.
The EC will go after them, I'm sure - my only worry is that when Charlie McCreevy's reign as compliance commissioner ends next year sometime, his successor will not have the same determination and tenacity.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: lojo at December 30, 2007, 11:15 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
Jeez, Lojo... you assume way the heck too much.
My last OTP as well. I honestly believe wonderful things could have happened. She has been a heroine to me for a long time.
/OT
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Simmo! at December 30, 2007, 11:04 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by spearmaster
by the time they figure out how to implement this new regulation, the EU will have required them to amend it.
Or more likely, the EU will let them off so long as they allow European pig farmers to have special markets on Sundays, for Austrian ballet dancers to be able to cross the border without a passport and for Swedish travel companies to be able to advertise freely in German S&M magazines.
Not forgetting that one of the main beneficiaries of the agreement with the USA was DHL, a German company. So there's already a political "trade route" set up
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: spearmaster at December 30, 2007, 10:55 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
I'm quite well aware of world history and my statement that Madam is the Mother of India stands, touche' ? ( Had this most important person not been brutally assasinated she would have reunited Hindi and Musli alike, and the artificial division by religion would have fallen, making her the sovereign Mother of India... and so she remains in my heart and mind)
Jeez, Lojo... you assume way the heck too much. Just admit your mistake and get over it. There is not a snowball's chance in Hades that a reunification would have happened... Pakistan is having a hard enough time keeping itself together and the assassination of Benazir Bhutto is not going to make it any easier.
End of OT rant.
My opinion is that this new German law is going to be lacking teeth for the foreseeable future - by the time they figure out how to implement this new regulation, the EU will have required them to amend it.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: USA2112 at December 30, 2007, 10:42 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
All countries should follow in the same steps as Italy and beggin to regulate, it cost tax payers money for these foolish fights against online gambling and it would make money if they were to regulate. Seems simple, so hopefully it does not keep getting worse and countries like the good ole USA especially and others start to wise up.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: Zodiac at December 30, 2007, 10:35 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Here are three links and i know that i must post it in your language, sorry but it’s in german, while it make no fun to translate it in your language, it’s too difficult translating correct.
It’s also ery difficult to understand what you guys exactly mean and think, that’s also the reason why i have not replied at some posts.
Who like and have interest to read it must translate it by himself.
Maybe Jetset make this own work.
It will gives many complains in regarding to this feeble-mindedness, our country is not better as yours, but it will always give a way.
Personally i don’t think about it at this moment
http://www.isa-casinos.de/data/16284.html
http://www.isa-casinos.de/articles/1...tsvertrag.html
http://www.isa-casinos.de/articles/1...kerzeiten.html
and sorry again that i'm not able to translate it in your language and if it will not going confirm with the rules you can delete it, because f... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Casinomeister at December 30, 2007, 8:47 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jinnia
So, f you don't target Germany, it's ok then???
It's never been legal to advertise online casinos in German in Germany. That's why it's not done here (CM). I told this often to affiliate managers telling them that they are going to get some poor webmaster in a world of hurt who is unknowingly breaking the law.
To say it's okay? I wouldn't say that since nothing in this industry is 100% clear. There are constantly new laws being passed and it's difficult to figure how any jurisdiction is going to react.
It looks as though things are getting more bureaucratic here (if that's possible ), but it may be a good thing in the long haul. Look what happened in Italy, for example. Online gambling was prohibited a couple of years ago -- they tried blocking gambling sites, then they did a 180 degree turnaround and went for regulation. Italy is okay now.
With Germany, it's hard to say, but they will definitely lock horns wit... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at December 30, 2007, 5:49 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
[*]Per jetset, I'm quite well aware of world history and my statement that Madam is the Mother of India stands, touche' ? ( Had this most important person not been brutally assasinated she would have reunited Hindi and Musli alike, and the artificial division by religion would have fallen, making her the sovereign Mother of India... and so she remains in my heart and mind)
Afraid I find your logic here unfathomable, Lojo - not an unusual experience LOL.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: lojo at December 30, 2007, 11:55 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Ah, my always diplomatic friend, chuchu. Thank you.Per c_note, it is my honor to be on your ignore list.
Per jetset, I'm quite well aware of world history and my statement that Madam is the Mother of India stands, touche' ? ( Had this most important person not been brutally assasinated she would have reunited Hindi and Musli alike, and the artificial division by religion would have fallen, making her the sovereign Mother of India... and so she remains in my heart and mind)
Per Rob, I apologize that my drunken emotions got the best of me, one must sleep now and then if one drinks as i do sometimes.
Per our gracious Host: note taken, expect no more of that behavior.
Per others, no comment.
To the anonymous reader: you have just seen the last puddle of a meltdown of a knowledgable and helpful member (moi) fear not, there are enough guard dogs of decency here to ensure that your contributions will be respected.
Per c_note again, if you are reading this; I assumed you w... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: chuchu59 at December 30, 2007, 9:19 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Sigh! Actually, I sorta expected this to come from Lojo after his break. What else from one who is so starved for words. However, the respectable Ms Bhutto died for her country and this is something that should not be taken too lightly.
I did notice that nearly everyday there are quite a large number of members who browse this forum but dont seem to have posted. Lojo, your posts will frighten them so if only you could try to give some suggestions as how to encourage these(newbies?) to post, it may be far more constructive. How about that for a challenge.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: jinnia at December 30, 2007, 7:53 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by c_note
Lojo
Whats your agenda? I posted an article, and included a reference to 2 people I seriously respect, Jetset & CM (Both comments intended to be funny, and no offense appears to have been taken by either of them). The article is ery relevant to the industry, from a good source, and important to ery large number of people who read this forum.
As for me not responding to a post, well, hey, Its between Christmas & New Year and I have a new son, I don't spend every moment in front of my pc. If you have an issue with that, go see a shrink. Check the times on the posts, it took 12 hours for the first response, and over 30 hours for you to spew your tripe (and I quote "I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut."), and you expect me to be sitting and waiting joyfully to respond?
This is now the second time you have "called me out". Are you stalking me or something? I am 60lb... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at December 30, 2007, 7:12 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
QUOTE: She is not the mother of India, and has nothing to do with Afghanistan; she is Pakistani, read all about her here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
If you are going to spew tripe, at least make sure it is factual tripe.UNQUOTE
Touche!
But back to Germany....
The European Commission is unlikely to look kindly on this, assuming the German states press ahead with it on January 1. The principle is not too dissimilar to the US and its WTO problem i.e. only support those principles that you like and suit you.
In this case the motivation seems to be blatant protectionism of state gambling monopolies, and the top European gambling companies have already served notice that they intend to contest any such moves in the courts.
That, and the liklihood that the EC will haul Germany into the European Court of Justice, is something the Germans must know they are at risk of suffering here.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: c_note at December 29, 2007, 9:35 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Lojo
Whats your agenda? I posted an article, and included a reference to 2 people I seriously respect, Jetset & CM (Both comments intended to be funny, and no offense appears to have been taken by either of them). The article is ery relevant to the industry, from a good source, and important to ery large number of people who read this forum.
As for me not responding to a post, well, hey, Its between Christmas & New Year and I have a new son, I don't spend every moment in front of my pc. If you have an issue with that, go see a shrink. Check the times on the posts, it took 12 hours for the first response, and over 30 hours for you to spew your tripe (and I quote "I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut."), and you expect me to be sitting and waiting joyfully to respond?
This is now the second time you have "called me out". Are you stalking me or something? I am 60lbs overweight, hairy, have loads of bad habits and d... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Casinomeister at December 29, 2007, 8:31 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Can we keep this thread on track please?
Lojo - if I need to put you on break again, I will - and then that's it - no more Lojo.
As for Casinomeister, this is an English site that does not target Germans or German speaking people. I have always had a hands off policy for German marketing and plan to keep it this way; this site has always operated within the law. If I have to turn the banners off for our German guests, then I will.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: GaryWatson at December 29, 2007, 5:57 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
The mother of India died, freak. if your eyes are not wet, make them.
1. General Posting Rules:
1.12 - No "International Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another international member or guest. The use of asswipe, tool, tosspot, dickwad are fine, but please respect the community within the tone of the thread. Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended. Please refrain from potty mouth language.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobWin at December 29, 2007, 4:51 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
c has been silent so and now it can blather all it wishes. I hear a funeral for bhutto, becasue I love, and c-note's motive is not important now.
I heard afghani tumes in my heaed, boo hoo, i felt thr war occuring, i know moe thasn amoo-ja-haq-deenb. this if lojo, I have alwayws been
Dude...it sounds as though, judging by the above speech impediments that you may need to go back on break again !!
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: BingoT at December 29, 2007, 4:48 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
So this means if someone is silent for awhile gives you the right to kick them down so they will be silent again.
Give C some Credit here at least.
I have great Meds for you to take to help you if you like.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: lojo at December 29, 2007, 4:41 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
c has been silent so and now it can blather all it wishes. I hear a funeral for bhutto, becasue I love, and c-note's motive is not important now.
I heard afghani tumes in my heaed, boo hoo, i felt thr war occuring, i know moe thasn amoo-ja-haq-deenb. this if lojo, I have alwayws been
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: jetset at December 29, 2007, 4:35 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by markjacob
Why? He reported a alid and interesting story.
I agree - this is an important online gambling story that has been building for the past year and is of interest and alue to a great many people.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: BingoT at December 29, 2007, 3:43 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by RobWin
What the hell is that suppost to mean ? This story has been in the news for a couple of days now.
I like to know myself.
lojo you lost me on this one.
You having a bad hair day or something
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobWin at December 29, 2007, 3:40 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut.
What the hell is that suppost to mean ? This story has been in the news for a couple of days now.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: markjacob at December 29, 2007, 3:25 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
I want c_note to expose himself and his motive or keep his trap shut.
Why? He reported a alid and interesting story.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: REOdeathwagon at December 28, 2007, 10:35 am | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
I would assume that this affects online poker also. Seems like there has been a large push recently from the poker sites into the German market.
| | Static Link |
| Posted by: c_note at December 27, 2007, 10:04 pm | | Topic: Germany pushing for Ban Forum: Casino Meister |
Have not seen this posted yet (yay, I beat Jetset.. )
Germany to Ban Online Gambling Jan. 1 Under Accord by States
Dec. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Online gambling will be banned in Germany as of Jan. 1 after German states ratified an accord that preserves the country's state monopoly for lotteries and most forms of betting.
Full article on bloomberg
http://www.bloomberg.com/....
Meister, you ready to move?? (Malta is nice this time of year)
| | Static Link |
|