| Posted by: jetset at January 8, 2008, 10:46 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Are we not really debating here the difference between (objective as possible) "news" and active "promotion?"
If it's the former, then I would lean in Simmo's direction, where imo it's better to present as many of the facts as are available as an important guide for the decision players make themselves whether to frequent a enue or not.
I don't believe you can condemn an information site for presenting a balanced picture of a newsworthy matter, scandalous or not. And simply refusing to report or flag the issue is akin to pretending it's not there.
On the other hand, where an information site continues to actively promote and send players to a site where the promoting webmaster must have a reasonable inkling of bad conduct, a lack of player safety or unfair play....that I would regard as questionable in terms of both "ethical," "good" and "integrity" standards.
Edited to reiterate an important statement above: &... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 7, 2008, 8:38 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Kudos to casinomeister. Its the only site ive found with the right balance. We will never agree on everything but I think it is the most unbiased site of its kind
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 7, 2008, 7:02 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
The labeling thing is a bit touchy and it is ery subjective, maybe fuel for another thread...
But I really think labeling (calling a bad casino a Rogue or putting them on a websites Blacklist) works ery well to let punters know that they are taking extra chances with their money when they deposit in one of these casinos or poker rooms.
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| Posted by: Simmo! at January 7, 2008, 6:35 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
That's fair enough. I tend to steer away from labelling myself but I see your point too At the end of the day the player gets the full picture, which is the most important thing.
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 7, 2008, 6:27 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Hmmm, I do understand your logic, but I disagree with it.
You don't have to remove information about AP, as a matter of fact I am all for everyone providing more information to players about the Absolute Poker cheating scandal.
I for one did not remove Absolute Poker, I moved them to a Rogue status and removed my affiliate links and any direct link to AP from all of my sites.
The information stays up, the players get information and can make their own decisions. If the players still want to play at Absolute Poker after being told about the cheating (although it is beyond me why would anyone want to play where they know the house cheats), they can sign up through another affiliate site or directly with AP, but players are not going to sign up for Absolute Poker through me or mine.
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| Posted by: Simmo! at January 7, 2008, 5:56 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
Simmo, this whole Absolute Poker thing is dirty to the core, even if your putting up an disclaimer, your still a business partner with them as long as you are recruiting for them and I hate to say it, but it makes you look like your only concern is the cash.
Having never referred a single player to AP or UB, money isn't the issue here - wouldn't make the slightest difference to my bottom line if I leave them up or take them down - there's plenty of other poker rooms I can use. However...
...look at it this way. If I were to take them down, ignore them altogether: a player comes along, does/doesn't choose a poker room for now, goes somewhere else later, sees Absolute on another site, forum or ia Google and signs up. At least having been over my way he/she'll know the issues....were I to just remove them, he/she'd probably have had no idea.
Swings and roundabouts...apples and pears I guess, but I prefer to have a site that i... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: lots0 at January 7, 2008, 4:33 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Simmo, I reread my last post and I want to apologize, it reads like I was attacking you, that was not my intent, sorry.
Quote: Originally Posted by Simmo
the chances are it will become the most secure place to play as they couldn't afford it to happen twice.
Sorry I don't buy that argument. Using that logic, they never should have cheated in the first place... Because they really couldn't afford for it to happen once, now could they?
Quote: Originally Posted by Simmo
the indiscretion was not deliberate cheating by the operator, but rather the system was compromised by an employee...
It was deliberate cheating by the operator. Tom Scott was not just an employee, he was the owner/manager of Absolute Poker at the time and he was the main person behind the cheating.
Simmo, this whole Absolute Poker thing is dirty to the core, even if your putting up an disclaimer, your still a business partner with them as long as you are recru... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Simmo! at January 7, 2008, 3:53 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
... I have been convinced by overwhelming evidence and especially by their own confession of guilt that Absolute Poker is dirty as dirt.
I'm tempted to leave the AP thing to one side as it's being dealt with in another thread but there are two points I want to make: firstly, there is an argument that once something like this is uncovered, the chances are it will become the most secure place to play as they couldn't afford it to happen twice. Secondly, as I understand it (and I haven't read every single post), the indiscretion was not deliberate cheating by the operator, but rather the system was compromised by an employee...is that right? Regardless, whichever explanation one chooses to believe, the fact is there will be different opinions. My point is, while I have my own opinions, people could see that in different ways so it's best to present purely the facts and leave them to decide.
Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
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| Posted by: Rusty at January 7, 2008, 3:35 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
IMO it's waaay better for the punter to see all the facts before making their own decision. If they read of problems, and still want to click through then that's their decision. Education is important in this industry.
While I agree with that statement Simmo and the sentiment is admirable it relies on the information being presented in the right manner.
For example if you wish to educate a player that a site may have been caught cheating then the information should probably be displayed as a warning (IN RED) or at least as a caution rather than a note.
Also it would be better to inform the player of the possible implications of using such a site.
Of course this being the case it may be better to just distance yourself from such operations.
I hope you see this as constructive criticism.
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 6, 2008, 11:18 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Simmo
Was the system compromised at UltimateBet too?
No one knows. As both sites are owned and operated by the same people, it would be rather simple minded to think that only one of the sites was cheating. So did they have a 'good' poker room that did not cheat players and they had a separate 'bad' poker room that did cheat the players. Come on that is really way beyond belief.
@ Simmo, it is good you at least have a small print disclaimer at the top of the page. But your disclaimer is rather ague and talks about 'being investigated for unusual account activity' and "no official conclusions have been made"...
Come on Simmo, Absolute Poker was CAUGHT red handed cheating and even admitted it themselves in press releases. Your education of the public should at the ery least be complete and honest.
I don't know if you remember or not, but I was the one of the ery few oices in support of Absolute Poker in the beginnin... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 6, 2008, 10:13 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
The knowledgeable, honest and reputable affiliates have already dropped or even Rogued Absolute and Ultimate Bet.
However you still have places like gambling911, CAP and some others that get a good olume of traffic that still support, refer players and affiliates to Absolute and Ultimate.
This is one of those times where the dirty underbelly of the online gambling is isible to outsiders. It is more than obvious to anyone looking at this issue that sites like gambling911 that push themselves as a player advocate and News outlet and sites like CAP that promote themselves as as an affiliate advocate are in fact just shills for the gambling sites, acquiring players and affiliates for them. A ery nasty business indeed.
Ching! Ching! Happy new year Lots0, now I know you are genuine. I respect the players I bring in, weather its personal or through search engines. I was getting shafted long before the cheating scandal came out. I stu... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Simmo! at January 6, 2008, 10:12 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Was the system compromised at UltimateBet too?
I disagree that a good affiliate will stop promoting bad casinos. An ethical affiliate might, but my opinion of a "good" affiliate is one who continues the coverage but with information on the misdemeanours. I did that with Jackpot Factory last year and I stand by that decision. I'm doing it with Absolute now (like this).
IMO it's waaay better for the punter to see all the facts before making their own decision. If they read of problems, and still want to click through then that's their decision. Education is important in this industry.
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 6, 2008, 9:27 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote:
If you have market power simply do not deliver players.
The knowledgeable, honest and reputable affiliates have already dropped or even Rogued Absolute and Ultimate Bet.
However you still have places like gambling911, CAP and some others that get a good olume of traffic that still support, refer players and affiliates to Absolute and Ultimate.
This is one of those times where the dirty underbelly of the online gambling is isible to outsiders. It is more than obvious to anyone looking at this issue that sites like gambling911 that push themselves as a player advocate and News outlet and sites like CAP that promote themselves as as an affiliate advocate are in fact just shills for the gambling sites, acquiring players and affiliates for them. A ery nasty business indeed.
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| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 6, 2008, 2:29 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
Had you been paid x/000 on deposit, period, could you have been a better affiliate? And if not, why? Simple please
Either way it wouldnt have worked. The players I sent just never tracked. I know my way well enough round a PC to ensure the tracking is fine. It was just a straight scam.
The problem is, there are ery few good sites out there that still accept US players. The 2 decent ones im left with are Stars & FT. AP & UB are banned from my dictionary.
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| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 6, 2008, 2:02 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lojo
The foxes watching the henhouse?
There are good affiliates; knowledgable, helpful business people with ethics and morals. An informal audit of a random sample of 100 will find a surprisingly (?) low number of them in that sample.
Nothing wrong with being an affiliate, but the model itself is corrupt and exploitable.
The only thing I've seen that makes sense is a new model that simply pays a commision on each deposit. Period. Players should also be informed of the fact that they are entering into a business relationship with someone (not the stealth way it is done now) and the Affiliate should be willing to to act as not only introducer, but host and arbitrater for the player. If the player isn't satisfied they could go to another affiliate or deal directly with the casino.
Dream on, huh? It would take a lot of market force to change the secretive way things are done today.
Yes. I was stung by Absolute ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: lojo at January 5, 2008, 11:36 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
The foxes watching the henhouse?
There are good affiliates; knowledgable, helpful business people with ethics and morals. An informal audit of a random sample of 100 will find a surprisingly (?) low number of them in that sample.
Nothing wrong with being an affiliate, but the model itself is corrupt and exploitable.
The only thing I've seen that makes sense is a new model that simply pays a commision on each deposit. Period. Players should also be informed of the fact that they are entering into a business relationship with someone (not the stealth way it is done now) and the Affiliate should be willing to to act as not only introducer, but host and arbitrater for the player. If the player isn't satisfied they could go to another affiliate or deal directly with the casino.
Dream on, huh? It would take a lot of market force to change the secretive way things are done today.
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| Posted by: cyprean at January 5, 2008, 7:53 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
Most folks around here know I am not a fan of CAP, so I will be brief.
In my opinion CAP is ROGUE. ...
If Players want a REAL organization to protect them (Besides Casino Meister), the players should start a players group that has NO affiliation with any casinos or affiliate groups.
True. It's all about the money for CAP, pure and simple. The rogue casinos can pay a little extra affy income, because they screw their players more often.
It's hard to find the right balance. Here at CM the balance is about right.
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 5, 2008, 6:50 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Most folks around here know I am not a fan of CAP, so I will be brief.
In my opinion CAP is ROGUE.
CAP promotes known rogue casinos, they get new and "innocent" affiliates into the field to promote known rogue casinos and poker rooms, all in the name of earning the owner of CAP 2nd tier affiliate income.
BTW - this idea that CAP keeps the rogues on their "Good" list so the Great Leader at CAP can talk them back into the "good" side is about the biggest pile of smelly, fly infested shit on the WWW today. Not one single ROGUE Casino has been reformed by CAP in their years and years of 'trying'.
Let me ask you all this... Why should the ROGUE Casinos reform? They still get affiliates (and players) directly from CAP, all discussions at CAP about the rogue behavior of casinos they promote is squashed on their forum... CAP protects the ROGUE Casinos and gives No incentives at all for the rogue casinos to reform.
If Players want a REAL org... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: GaryWatson at January 5, 2008, 2:34 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
I have to agree with Simmo in his well thought through post above, but are we not seeing the glimmerings of at least some affiliates trying to achieve a better standard through membership of sites like CAP and the GPWA and the educational get-togethers they espouse?
Thats why I was a little surprised to see that B4playing was given the thumbs up by CAP. It appears apparent respectability can be bought & members still have to beware
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| Posted by: Rusty at January 5, 2008, 2:21 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Simmo!
Haha - yeah I admit I saw the thread title and assumed my race was under attack. But some muppets you just can't defend
Definately. These two organisations are providing some ery good - actually, make that excellent - opportunites for affiliates to get together and learn, but I think they would readily agree that their concern is the affiliate and not the player...what they don't do is provide information on which actual casinos or poker rooms are suitable for players - on both sites you'll find casinos advertising who are, shall we say diplomatically, "not among the best" - but they do provide an excellent platform for affiliates to guide each other.
It's great if the affiliates find CAP and GPWA but not all do and it's still down to research, even on those sites.
Not being an affiliate I was not aware of these organizations.
their concern is the affiliate and not the player
Id... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Simmo! at January 5, 2008, 10:30 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Rusty
Just re_read the thread title and worked out why Simmo is here.
No offence mate.
There should be a law against muppet discrimination
Haha - yeah I admit I saw the thread title and assumed my race was under attack. But some muppets you just can't defend
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
...but are we not seeing the glimmerings of at least some affiliates trying to achieve a better standard through membership of sites like CAP and the GPWA and the educational get-togethers they espouse?.
Definately. These two organisations are providing some ery good - actually, make that excellent - opportunites for affiliates to get together and learn, but I think they would readily agree that their concern is the affiliate and not the player...what they don't do is provide information on which actual casinos or poker rooms are suitable for players - on both sites you'll find casinos advertising who are, shall we... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: jetset at January 5, 2008, 10:13 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
This has turned into an interesting discussion on affiliates, integrity and professionalism, albeit a little off at a tangent.
I have to agree with Simmo in his well thought through post above, but are we not seeing the glimmerings of at least some affiliates trying to achieve a better standard through membership of sites like CAP and the GPWA and the educational get-togethers they espouse?
Admittedly the powers of these organisations are limited to the opinion of peers, but is it not at the ery least a level above the unknowing and/or unwilling to improve?
Edited to add that this is again an area where players can make an impact by sharing experiences and reporting bad conduct....and more conscientious affiliates can distance themselves from the rogues and agabonds by their own professional behaviour and condemnation of bad practice.
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| Posted by: lojo at January 5, 2008, 8:21 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
I'm purty sure that I've costs casinos that played games with me or simply didn't pay more than they took from me. 'Harassing' some of their affiliates was part of it. There are still affiliates that post here that promote rogues. Shame 'em...
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| Posted by: vinylweatherman at January 5, 2008, 1:43 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Rusty
www.topboss.co.uk/RTG_Casinos.htm
Haunted Casino theme?
They must have every corrupt/rogue RTG Casino ever squeezed out through the sphincter of Satan!
and not an accredited one in sight
You will certainly feel haunted for a long time if you use this site for your gaming needs.
ps
sorry they have Geisha lounge and king solomons listed which I think are in the accredited list somehow.
Did you know though that king solomons now have a hidden disclaimer for their sign up bonus?
PLEASE NOTE: Players from Ireland, Scotland and United Kingdom will unfortunately no longer be able to claim the Welcome offers until further notice
WTF I thought this lot WERE British. Is there something about this industry that forces casinos to exclude players in some way that reside in their licencing juristiction, or the country that hosts them. It would be like Vegas saying US citizens were no... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Rusty at January 5, 2008, 1:05 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Yeah, I take all your points about policing and I think Lotso puts it best.
I guess it was just wishful thinking on my part and I suppose the best way to go is to show up the bad ones on respected forums.
I understand what you are saying Simmo the bad ones can not be bothered doing the research because they don't care about their cash cows being ripped off as long as they get there pound of flesh.
Still there are worse things in the World.
Why doesn't that make me feel any better, pass the Prozac someone
LOL
Edit
Just re_read the thread title and worked out why Simmo is here.
No offence mate.
There should be a law against muppet discrimination
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| Posted by: Simmo! at January 4, 2008, 11:29 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
The affiliate industry, in any sector, will never be able to police itself without some sort of regulation. The barriers to entry are low - you basically just need to be able to design a website - however the path to making an income relies on "knowledge".
The "good" affiliates know their industry and products like the back of their hand. The not-so good ones can make up ground by learning SEO techniques. The crap ones turn to black-hat and often steal a march, though normally for short term gains until they are found out.
Unfortunately, gambling affiliates receive no guidance as to which operators are good and which are not - they have to do their own research and a lot can't be arsed, hence why you end up with sites like the one mentioned who look at things purely from an affiliate angle. And to a degree it's subjective - no casino is liked by everyone, although some rogues are more obvious than others.
But at the end of the day these dodgy affiliat... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at January 4, 2008, 10:12 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
I left a keyword out....a la a primary industries .....no biggie so do not worry about , I was just seeking knowledge and I did not proof my post as the doorbell was ringing.....and it was was not the post (pun intended) man!
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 4, 2008, 9:30 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
My friend, the WWW is far more than p0rn, gambling and real estate.
Anything that can be bought or sold, is bought and sold on the WWW. Your only limit is your own imagination and drive.
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at January 4, 2008, 9:08 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
Smart affiliates have been moving into non-gambling related areas for over a year now. Some of the non-gambling affiliate sectors are already starting to feel the heat of real competition.
Yeah,like porn and what else????...Certaintly, the mortgage industry would have been poor timing for those in the states....just curious as you prolly would know I assume from trade industry media?....other than porn which may comprise a ery small amount of the move into other sectors, I have no clue of what industries comprise the actual diversification movement over the past year!
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| Posted by: lots0 at January 4, 2008, 8:57 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Smart affiliates have been moving into non-gambling related areas for over a year now. Some of the non-gambling affiliate sectors are already starting to feel the heat of real competition.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rusty
Makes me wonder why some of the more responsible affiliates, many of whom dwell on this site, do not get together and form their own organization with their own code of conduct and seal of approval.
Ever heard the expression... "Trying to herd a group of cats"?
One of the main reasons people become affiliates in the first place is to be on their own without any type of boss or anyone else telling them what to do... In other words most of the good affiliates are not "Joiners" or "followers".
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| Posted by: KasinoKing at January 4, 2008, 7:24 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
"Some retail programs, they want affiliates to be like a little Amway guy," he said. "The casino affiliate isn't a 50 bucks a month guy, he's a 10,000 bucks a month guy."
Blimey - I wish! I'm definitely MUCH closer to the former than the latter!
Quote: Originally Posted by Rusty
Makes me wonder why some of the more responsible affiliates, many of whom dwell on this site, do not get together and form their own organization with their own code of conduct and seal of approval.
Sites like the above must do tremendous unfair damage to your credibility.
Very good point and a great idea.
Being relatively new to the affy scene I don't know if this already exists or has been tried, but the big problem would be the same as it is with the rogue casinos themselves - just how could you do anything to stop them?
Also unsuspecting newbies have no idea which casinos or ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Rusty at January 4, 2008, 2:50 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Makes me wonder why some of the more responsible affiliates, many of whom dwell on this site, do not get together and form their own organization with their own code of conduct and seal of approval.
Sites like the above must do tremendous unfair damage to your credibility.
The worse thing about this place is that I somehow came across it by searching best UK RTG casinos
Perhaps there should be an affiliates rogue gallery
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| Posted by: NASHVEGAS at January 4, 2008, 8:58 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by jetset
Get Ready for the Big Gambling Affiliate Takeover
By Kate Kaye, The ClickZ Network, Oct 13, 2006
Shawn Collins, co-founder of the Affiliate Summit conference series expects some gambling affiliates "to go for markets similar in scope to what they're doing," he said. That might mean entering financial markets like the insurance or mortgage affiliate industries. Affiliates in more mainstream markets, said Collins, are concerned about a gambling affiliate onslaught "because the gambling affiliates have been known to be ery innovative and aggressive," he said.
That would have been like hitting both zeros on the roulette table with one spin at least in the States!
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| Posted by: chuchu59 at January 4, 2008, 7:34 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Quote: Originally Posted by Rusty
www.topboss.co.uk/RTG_Casinos.htm
Haunted Casino theme?
They must have every corrupt/rogue RTG Casino ever squeezed out through the sphincter of Satan!
and not an accredited one in sight
You will certainly feel haunted for a long time if you use this site for your gaming needs.
ps
sorry they have Geisha lounge and king solomons listed which I think are in the accredited list somehow.
Did you know though that king solomons now have a hidden disclaimer for their sign up bonus?
PLEASE NOTE: Players from Ireland, Scotland and United Kingdom will unfortunately no longer be able to claim the Welcome offers until further notice
Now which is worse, their RTGs or Playtechs. If new players had played any of these first, they would refrain from playing the MGs later although the list seems OK to me.
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| Posted by: jetset at January 4, 2008, 6:14 am | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
Wow - that really is a rogues gallery!
You can read all about this outfit here: http://www.topbossgroup.com/about_us.htm
And according to the following (see bold para) its part of a network from South Africa:
Get Ready for the Big Gambling Affiliate Takeover
By Kate Kaye, The ClickZ Network, Oct 13, 2006
Affiliate marketing drives the online gambling space. Now that the industry is dealing with recent legislation outlawing U.S. Web gambling transactions, some gambling affiliates are searching for new markets to sink their teeth into. As a result, some say mainstream affiliate marketers are in for a rude awakening.
"I am extremely worried about this ban that Congress will put on online gaming," wrote an affiliate webmaster in a post to the Gambling Portal Webmasters Association forum earlier this month. "We now have to turn our attention to the European market but one can only do so little marketing in Europe!" continue... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Rusty at January 3, 2008, 9:39 pm | | Topic: Who is this muppet? Forum: Casino Meister |
www.topboss.co.uk/RTG_Casinos.htm
Haunted Casino theme?
They must have every corrupt/rogue RTG Casino ever squeezed out through the sphincter of Satan!
and not an accredited one in sight
You will certainly feel haunted for a long time if you use this site for your gaming needs.
ps
sorry they have Geisha lounge and king solomons listed which I think are in the accredited list somehow.
Did you know though that king solomons now have a hidden disclaimer for their sign up bonus?
PLEASE NOTE: Players from Ireland, Scotland and United Kingdom will unfortunately no longer be able to claim the Welcome offers until further notice
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