| Posted by: Chas8020 at November 9, 2005, 5:17 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | Cha Ngo wrote: OK, I have come to a couple of conclusions.
First, I suck at PLO8 so please take all this pseudo wisdom I share with a bit of salt. Most of it is gleaned from Badger's site anyway.
Second, I never gave what I thought was the biggest mistake. So here it is:
Getting all-in on the turn and missing the chance to bluff the pot when a scare card hits on the river.
Say you have the nut low and a shitty flush on the turn. You suspect the chances are equal that it's a split pot, you are quartered and your opponent is quartered (33% each). Now you bet and your opponent makes a good raise that if you re-raise, will get you all-in or nearly so. A lot of people will make that raise and it is a mistake. Chances are pretty good that if a scare card comes (the board pairs) on the river and you put the rest of your chips in then (and it is still a decent amount), you can steal half the pot if your opponent was in there with the nut flush. By getting all in before the river, you lose... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at November 8, 2005, 11:18 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | OK, I have come to a couple of conclusions.
First, I suck at PLO8 so please take all this pseudo wisdom I share with a bit of salt. Most of it is gleaned from Badger's site anyway.
Second, I never gave what I thought was the biggest mistake. So here it is:
Getting all-in on the turn and missing the chance to bluff the pot when a scare card hits on the river.
Say you have the nut low and a shitty flush on the turn. You suspect the chances are equal that it's a split pot, you are quartered and your opponent is quartered (33% each). Now you bet and your opponent makes a good raise that if you re-raise, will get you all-in or nearly so. A lot of people will make that raise and it is a mistake. Chances are pretty good that if a scare card comes (the board pairs) on the river and you put the rest of your chips in then (and it is still a decent amount), you can steal half the pot if your opponent was in there with the nut flush. By getting all in before the river, you lose that opportunity to bl... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: pilgrimshoes at September 30, 2005, 5:02 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | you gotta only look at low sets as a bonus if they hohld up... b/c many times they will not.
ie, holding A244, board is 47x,
it'd be nice if the set of fours held up, but you are rollin' the low too.
_________________
hey, its that guy | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Montana.T at September 28, 2005, 2:03 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | IMHO
Low pocket pairs which hit trips. So often there are over pairs which have also hit/hit on turn/flop.
This is where i have lost most money at omaha, and just my tuppence!
P. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: klo at September 27, 2005, 12:49 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | By way of a vote, fwiw, in response to ChanGo's original Q: I think the most important item specific to PLO/8 is DON'T GET FREEROLLED. You get quartered in O/8 - big deal. You get quartered in PLO/8 - bye bye to lots of money.
I know freerolling has been mentioned before.
_________________
I felt sorry for myself because I had no hands until I met a man who had no chips... | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 15, 2005, 9:34 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | mattspoker wrote: pokahpro wrote: bob breck wrote: you should be playing more hands then limit because of the implied odds your getting. you shouldnt be playing more than a holdem pot limit game with the same blinds and stack size.
Isn't that what I've been saying all along?????
BTW, it helps if you use the quote feature so people know what comment you are responding to.
Also, FWIW, I don't play much holdem at all.
You can play more hands than limit and less hands than limit. Limit you can play a lot more A2 hands than you can in PL, and play them further. PL hands for small unit bets(when you think you are safe from a reraise) you can play if they are strong. Id say you can play more QQ and KK hands than limit, but still with position. Where it gets murky is high middle rundowns. Thats shit in limit, and a gamble at PL. So much depends on the table. And GT+
and the # of hands you have on people. You cant outrun... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: hackmage at September 11, 2005, 5:55 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | Omaha is one of the very few games where both tight and loose PF players can be winning players. Look into Hansen/Ivey's style of play on the loose side, and someone like Cloutier's style on tight. Both can be winners, it just depends on experience. You have to realize what's good and what is bad in Omaha to really begin playing damn near everything. I point to the example in SS/2 where a PF raise was a complete tell to AA, and Hansen calls knowing that anything that can't beat AA is an immediate fold, and Hansen banks on two pair. But something like that takes years of experience, and I'd tell newbs to stick to Cloutier and his no straggler law until they have played for a while. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 10, 2005, 6:09 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | pokahpro wrote: bob breck wrote: you should be playing more hands then limit because of the implied odds your getting. you shouldnt be playing more than a holdem pot limit game with the same blinds and stack size.
Isn't that what I've been saying all along?????
BTW, it helps if you use the quote feature so people know what comment you are responding to.
Also, FWIW, I don't play much holdem at all.
You can play more hands than limit and less hands than limit. Limit you can play a lot more A2 hands than you can in PL, and play them further. PL hands for small unit bets(when you think you are safe from a reraise) you can play if they are strong. Id say you can play more QQ and KK hands than limit, but still with position. Where it gets murky is high middle rundowns. Thats shit in limit, and a gamble at PL. So much depends on the table. And GT+
and the # of hands you have on people. You cant outrun the EV of hands......and ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 9, 2005, 1:57 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | bob breck wrote: you should be playing more hands then limit because of the implied odds your getting. you shouldnt be playing more than a holdem pot limit game with the same blinds and stack size.
Isn't that what I've been saying all along?????
BTW, it helps if you use the quote feature so people know what comment you are responding to.
Also, FWIW, I don't play much holdem at all. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 9, 2005, 10:34 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | you should be playing more hands then limit because of the implied odds your getting. you shouldnt be playing more than a holdem pot limit game with the same blinds and stack size. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 9, 2005, 10:28 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | they have to be generic cause all your decisions are based on the players, pot size....etc. you cant have a self wieghting strategy and expect to do well beyond the lowest limits. its all about thinking the correct way. thats why theory of poker is such a great book it teaches you the right way to think about poker.
for specifics problems post some hands. just make sure you include reads, pot size and stack size. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 8, 2005, 10:43 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | mattspoker wrote: pokahpro wrote: bob breck wrote: those are the top 4 things in any poker game. once you understand basic poker principles you can sit in any poker game identify where your edge comes from and then able to make the best decisions for a given situation.
Can you give specifics, like some starting hand selection? Most of what you are saying is pretty generic. Should starting hands be more or less than Limit O8? Everything I've read says you should be playing more hands than limit.
I'm fairly comfortable with general PL/NL concepts. I frequently play PL Draw and PL/NL 5-Stud and do fairly well.
where is NL 5 stud?
Prima of course... :-) | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 8, 2005, 10:20 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | pokahpro wrote: bob breck wrote: those are the top 4 things in any poker game. once you understand basic poker principles you can sit in any poker game identify where your edge comes from and then able to make the best decisions for a given situation.
Can you give specifics, like some starting hand selection? Most of what you are saying is pretty generic. Should starting hands be more or less than Limit O8? Everything I've read says you should be playing more hands than limit.
I'm fairly comfortable with general PL/NL concepts. I frequently play PL Draw and PL/NL 5-Stud and do fairly well.
where is NL 5 stud?
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 8, 2005, 10:09 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | bob breck wrote: those are the top 4 things in any poker game. once you understand basic poker principles you can sit in any poker game identify where your edge comes from and then able to make the best decisions for a given situation.
Can you give specifics, like some starting hand selection? Most of what you are saying is pretty generic. Should starting hands be more or less than Limit O8? Everything I've read says you should be playing more hands than limit.
I'm fairly comfortable with general PL/NL concepts. I frequently play PL Draw and PL/NL 5-Stud and do fairly well. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 8, 2005, 9:56 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | macman wrote: If your post flop play is above average, you can potentially afford to play more hands but I don't necessarily believe it will yield more profit over the long haul. You did hit on a real key though pokahpro, position is of paramount importance in O8.
This is just MHO, but instead of playing more hands, take that money spent on seeing the flop with bad hands and apply it to raising more preflop with your premium hands. I believe that will yield more profit for you than seeing more flops. In other words, play the hands you do play better and maximize your $ on those hands.
We are talking PLO8, right? Just want to make that clear.
Oh, and trust me. I have no problem with pre-flop raising... :-) | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 8, 2005, 9:47 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | those are the top 4 things in any poker game. once you understand basic poker principles you can sit in any poker game identify where your edge comes from and then able to make the best decisions for a given situation. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: hofdaddy at September 8, 2005, 9:23 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | Not to be a ball buster but isn't that what you want to do in any PL game?
_________________
I hate poker. I hate life. I hate you
-hofdaddy's trinity
give a woman an inch and she takes a foot. Give her a foot and she'll moan like a whore | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 8, 2005, 9:04 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | oh god yes if you tighten up when your out of position your win rate will improve greatly. i assume your sample size is large and if showing a profit with your hands in late position then your fine. i am not saying you should be a rock but you should be playing tighter then you would in a holdem game.
the top 4 most important thing in plo8 is:
1 game selection
2 hand selection
3 position
4 controlling the pot size | | Static Link |
| Posted by: macman at September 8, 2005, 7:30 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | If your post flop play is above average, you can potentially afford to play more hands but I don't necessarily believe it will yield more profit over the long haul. You did hit on a real key though pokahpro, position is of paramount importance in O8.
This is just MHO, but instead of playing more hands, take that money spent on seeing the flop with bad hands and apply it to raising more preflop with your premium hands. I believe that will yield more profit for you than seeing more flops. In other words, play the hands you do play better and maximize your $ on those hands. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 8, 2005, 5:04 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | bob breck wrote: if you play a -e.v hand holdem u can make it up post flop. in any omaha game if you play -e.v hand you wont make it up post flop because your edge on average is not as great on the flop and beyond.
i guess if you play very low limits where the players are total retards you might get the implied odds but at 5-5 or 2-4 blinds and up you will get punished for playing to loose preflop.
Hmm... I certainly don't play greater than .5/1 blinds. My understanding from what I've read is that post flop play is where it's at for PLO8. Starting hand selection is definately looser than Limit O8.
Anyone else? If I am wrong I need to fix that. I know I play too many hands but I feel only in early position. According to PT I'm winning solidly in the late half of the table. I have some problems in early positions, especially the blinds. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 8, 2005, 2:28 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | if you play a -e.v hand holdem u can make it up post flop. in any omaha game if you play -e.v hand you wont make it up post flop because your edge on average is not as great on the flop and beyond.
i guess if you play very low limits where the players are total retards you might get the implied odds but at 5-5 or 2-4 blinds and up you will get punished for playing to loose preflop. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 8, 2005, 10:35 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | bob breck wrote: my point was your most of e.v comes from hand selection in omaha. the biggest mistake u can make is being too loose preflop.
Are you talking Limit O, Limit O8, PLO, or PLO8? I don't play Omaha high at all. That said, hand selection in PLO8 can be much looser especially in later position. I would say post flop play is much more important to your ev than preflop play. This is for PLO8 which is really what this thread is supposed to be about. You don't want to play complete trash but I play things in PL that I would nevcer play in limit. For example I'll limp with just about any suited ace.
Like I said I probably play too many hands, but post flop play is definately more important than preflop play. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 8, 2005, 8:29 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | my point was your most of e.v comes from hand selection in omaha. the biggest mistake u can make is being too loose preflop. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: pokahpro at September 7, 2005, 9:42 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | Cha Ngo wrote: two dimes wrote:
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Td Jh 9h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Kc Ad Qd 72 72 422 172 0 0 0 0.237
Qs 3s Kh 2h 194 194 300 172 0 0 0 0.420
Js Ts Qc Jd 228 228 436 2 0 0 0 0.343
Food for thought.
Yeah, this is where AA gets people in trouble. Pretty much unless you flop and set and the flop is not low you need to muck. Unless you have low possiblities of course. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at September 6, 2005, 9:58 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | two dimes wrote:
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Td Jh 9h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Kc Ad Qd 72 72 422 172 0 0 0 0.237
Qs 3s Kh 2h 194 194 300 172 0 0 0 0.420
Js Ts Qc Jd 228 228 436 2 0 0 0 0.343
Food for thought.
_________________
I'm gonna change my name to Hannibal
Or maybe just Rex | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 6, 2005, 9:42 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | thats why straights suck, the value of the hand is negated by being able to be easily reproduced and outdrawn. Its probably a suck it up and call situation, as long as there are barrels left for the turn. The value grows with a blank on the turn. Calling huge bets with two flush draws out there however is probably horrible on the turn. TO lay it down on the flop, you had better respect the bettor for good reason. its not like you have 9T wiht a board of 678. The shittier situations are having top set when low flops. If there are a lot of horror cards for the turn you will have to lay it down to a pot and raise pot, even trip aces.
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: hofdaddy at September 6, 2005, 9:41 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | Cha Ngo wrote: OK, while we wait, I am going to give what I think is the second worst mistake in PLO8 and see what y'all think. I just saw a prime example of this and it reinforced the gravity of the situation. It is, getting freerolled on. For instance, you flop a fair hand with no redraws. Say you hold AsAdKcQd and the flop comes 9h Jh Td. You like this flop OK, right? However, there are a lot of ways for this hand to go bad. If there is a large bet and a call or raise to you, I say think about tossing it.
Am I crazy here?
My worry is that you are quite probably against the exact same straight AND that other bettors could have a redraw that is going to scoop you. The pot is relatively small at this point so why take the risk?
When I am playing PLO8, I am looking for opportunities to do the freerolling and avoiding giving others the chance. A side benefit of this is that the other players see me fold to large bets often and it gets them all excited when I am in a pot. Not... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at September 6, 2005, 8:39 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | OK, while we wait, I am going to give what I think is the second worst mistake in PLO8 and see what y'all think. I just saw a prime example of this and it reinforced the gravity of the situation. It is, getting freerolled on. For instance, you flop a fair hand with no redraws. Say you hold AsAdKcQd and the flop comes 9h Jh Td. You like this flop OK, right? However, there are a lot of ways for this hand to go bad. If there is a large bet and a call or raise to you, I say think about tossing it.
Am I crazy here?
My worry is that you are quite probably against the exact same straight AND that other bettors could have a redraw that is going to scoop you. The pot is relatively small at this point so why take the risk?
When I am playing PLO8, I am looking for opportunities to do the freerolling and avoiding giving others the chance. A side benefit of this is that the other players see me fold to large bets often and it gets them all excited when I am in a pot. Nothing better than having... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at September 6, 2005, 7:44 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | bob breck wrote: its very very rare in plo for that to happen. that why standard deviation is so much higher in plo than holdem. like i said plo is not like holdem its very very rare to have an 2-1 edge postflop in plo where in holdem its common. most of your money comes from hand selection.
Will you please explain this further as it runs contrary to my understanding of Omaha8. I always thought Holdem was a game of smallish edges where Omaha was a game of huge edges.
_________________
I'm gonna change my name to Hannibal
Or maybe just Rex | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 5, 2005, 3:27 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | its very very rare in plo for that to happen. that why standard deviation is so much higher in plo than holdem. like i said plo is not like holdem its very very rare to have an 2-1 edge postflop in plo where in holdem its common. most of your money comes from hand selection. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 5, 2005, 2:40 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | ummmmmmmmm....I think you have it backwards, but still the advantage comes from hand selection. postflop edges can be tiny, and they can be huge. alot of times you can book an all in vs someone with zero risk to yourself.
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: bob breck at September 4, 2005, 11:16 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | correct if i am wrong but unlike holdem isnt your postflop edge small. so wouldnt most of your ev come from better starting hands? its rare to be a 2-1 favorite in plo post flop. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 4, 2005, 12:55 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | I won a SNG at bodog doing that..........but i did figure out it was hi only the third from final hand. Bodog and Paradise both confuse me sometimes that way. You know if you log out form bodogs lobby and you dont log out from omaha wiht hi lo only clicked, you come back in seeing all the omaha games, and 1600 x 1200 is hard to make out. Ive started some days a whole buy in in the hole that way. ANd paradise the lobby is just sloppy. Wish you could unmix the hi onlys from the hi los. Ruined the reload for me when i dumped 120 withi nut low and 2nd nut flush.
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at September 3, 2005, 11:51 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | Well, this isn't the one I was thinking about but good to keep in mind. MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT FUCKING GAME YOU ARE PLAYING. I was just in a game and was doing rather well until I lost $50.00 with a wheel. I was like WTF!!!! when none of the pot came my way, but then I looked up and saw there was no H/L behind the Omaha.
Funny thing is, I'd been playing there for three hours!
Fucking broke even.
_________________
I'm gonna change my name to Hannibal
Or maybe just Rex | | Static Link |
| Posted by: hofdaddy at August 30, 2005, 9:19 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | mattspoker wrote: some dudes just wont lay down aces.
and they keep firing til the chambers dry. I love those guys
_________________
I hate poker. I hate life. I hate you
-hofdaddy's trinity
give a woman an inch and she takes a foot. Give her a foot and she'll moan like a whore | | Static Link |
| Posted by: TheFakeG at August 30, 2005, 9:49 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | ....but falling too much in love with bottom set and any 2 pair (especially bottom 2 pair) is a surefire way to watch your chips go away at a lot of tables.
If you have a table of uber-tight players, however, you can use these same hands to be table bully. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at August 30, 2005, 6:43 am | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | some dudes just wont lay down aces.
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at August 29, 2005, 6:37 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | Ok, I am going to start a list of these for easy reference.
- chasing too many low hands with zero or almost no chance of winning high
- Putting too much money in the pot off the flop with a nut str8.
- Not raising often enough preflop
- Not respecting position
- overplaying hands weaker than top set
-MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT FUCKING GAME YOU ARE PLAYING
These are all good, but I had something in mind very specific to pot limit that has not been mentioned. I will post mine in a day or two unless someone beats me to it.
In the meantime, anyone care to talk about pre-flop raising? Anyone against it? What types of hands do you raise? Why? Personally, I think it is a little overdone at times.
_________________
I'm gonna change my name to Hannibal
Or maybe just Rex | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at August 28, 2005, 3:58 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | the only way I can get more than half is to have a 4 fall, then i get 3/4 heads up vs 346.
He had a 5 to scoop and runner runner hearts non pairing.
the majority of the pot was heads up. He had 4 sccops, plus a runner runner scoop. I had 2 cards to 3/4.
thats -EV to throw 70 bux in a pot with.
Made low vs a high without a low is always negative EV if the lo has ANY outs to make a high.
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: wyldchyld at August 28, 2005, 3:23 pm | | Topic: Biggest mistake in PLO8 Forum: Bonus Whores | | mattspoker wrote: Me yesterday. I almost timed out multitabling so i snuck in on the button with AA36. No raise, but I was shorthanded at 3 SNGs, and almost timed out. Flop is A27. SB has 70 bux, no one else has any $ to speak of but me at 180. SB bets out something small, around $2. Two clueless fucks call. Then one off the button goes all in for about 20. It hits me, the SB has 34..............so of course dumb ass that I am I push to put him all in. He has 346. He calls and turn is a 5. Bye bye pot. the biggest mistake in hi lo(after playign too too many hands) is to lock in on one side of the pot. I read the guy for low correctly, and I have -EV against him. Why I didnt fold I have no idea. I coudlnt control the size of the pot thanks to the idiot on my right(who had bottom set); which is the only way you can play a set vs action with a pat low. Its easy to read in the book that its a game about scoops, another to lay down top set that is the nuts because its a loser in t... | | Read Entire Entry |
|