| Posted by: Wadaphuic at May 3, 2006, 3:06 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | To the OP...
In my case it depends on the site/table and who calls/raises. If I use the case of Prima (last year)1/2 or B2B 1/2, 2/4 now. AJ o/s is an Automatic raise UTG for me at TAG, TP tables, after i've worked out what I'm against. I'd be hoping for it to get folded around to the blinds. I play pretty tight at TAG TP tables so I usually get respect for my raises - I try to have a TAG image (I will do what Alphaunit1 suggests and learn how to play LAG)...I also believe I have pretty good post flop skills and judgement... It depends who decides to play against my raise...
Generally in the situation you describe, If you are re-raised and even if a A or J hits the flop you are usually dominated unless you believe your pair of Js is good and you can put them on AK/AQ or in the case of a ace if they have high pockets Kings/Queens... - it's a tough call and can be a costly mistake to find out... It depends... Some LAG dudes who can pick you as Tight/passive will reraise with 10s (or anyt... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RobDoral at May 3, 2006, 1:01 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | Penyeach wrote: RobDoral wrote: Not much I can do at times except break shit and yell a lot. I don't get cute with AA and pop it up only to have some idiot defend his blinds with 76o and chase me to the river hitting his inside st draw. Sure they pay you off long term but limit games are cursed for me or something right now. If I play beyond my bankroll to get to the better players who respect my raises, variance can wipe me out.
I can't believe that I'm still reading shit that suggests playing with better players will result in a higher win rate.
Winky faces aside you're kind of a jackass huh? I usually give folks the benefit of the doubt but having observed your behavior on these forums over the last couple of weeks you really just can't keep that pissy little demon from bubbling to the top for very long can you?
Better players mean less variance (less does not mean NO variance). Less variance for me personally means I'm less likely to tilt or play s... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Penyeach at May 3, 2006, 11:20 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | RobDoral wrote: Not much I can do at times except break shit and yell a lot. I don't get cute with AA and pop it up only to have some idiot defend his blinds with 76o and chase me to the river hitting his inside st draw. Sure they pay you off long term but limit games are cursed for me or something right now. If I play beyond my bankroll to get to the better players who respect my raises, variance can wipe me out.
I can't believe that I'm still reading shit that suggests playing with better players will result in a higher win rate. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobDoral at May 3, 2006, 7:33 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | PollyAmory wrote: Penyeach wrote: RobDoral wrote:
Why would you assume you're up against AK? Plenty of bad players would reraise with AQ and almost everyone is going to reraise you with AA-JJ, maybe even TT or 99, especially on a TAGish table (AND particularly if they know you've raised with marginal holdings UTG in the past).
What makes a player "bad" if he identifies that your range of raising hands includes AJs and re-raises you with position and a better hand - including AQ or a pair?
Or if he understand that you play weak-tight out of position and he can outplay you with any kind of a hand?
Let's pretend for a moment that not everyone who dares to reraise or plays aggressively is automatically a stupid fish. I see that a lot in hand analysis on this site and that's the kind of thinking that keeps people from improving. I could subsitute every instance of "fish" or "donk" in this thread with "player ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RobDoral at May 3, 2006, 7:20 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | Penyeach wrote: RobDoral wrote: as much as I'm getting my ass kicked at limit, I'm pretty much convinced anything I say is BS. WW Doral do? Do the opposite.
Noted. (A while ago.)
FUNNEEEEEE
Not much I can do at times except break shit and yell a lot. I don't get cute with AA and pop it up only to have some idiot defend his blinds with 76o and chase me to the river hitting his inside st draw. Sure they pay you off long term but limit games are cursed for me or something right now. If I play beyond my bankroll to get to the better players who respect my raises, variance can wipe me out. Yes I want some damn CHEESEY POOFS with my whine.
I wish to hell Party had a way to clear bonuses though SNGs or tournaments.
_________________
I am the paw that strikes from the darkness!!! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobDoral at May 3, 2006, 7:11 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | Helmuth's limit advice sucks ass other than the starting hand reqs which are more or less standard. He works too much off his table "rep" which is meaningless at a microlimit table and most low limit tables too. Lee Jones' limit holdem book is good and small stakes holde em is good once you get a grasp on things.
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I am the paw that strikes from the darkness!!! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Cpt. Canuck at May 3, 2006, 6:43 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | HeelHo wrote: A lot of limit skill is deducing what kind of limit game you are in. One limit strategy doesnt fit all limit games.
I couldn't agree more with this statement. One of the first poker books I read was Phil Helmuth's book - Learn Poker Like the Pros (I think that's the name). I tried to apply his strategy to loose passive micro limit tables (.25/.5 FLHE) and I was getting killed. For example, there's no point trying to 'represent' a huge hand against fish who don't know how to fold.
I only point out this obvious example to echo's HeelHo's comments that not all limit games are created equally and, just like in nature, if you can't adapt you won't survive. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at May 3, 2006, 6:17 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | A lot of limit skill is deducing what kind of limit game you are in. One limit strategy doesnt fit all limit games. AJs can be dealt with different ways. If you have a high flop % table you probably want to get as many people in as possible. A tight game go for the blinds unless people will 3 bet you, then you ahve to be prepared to back down or fire back. You really shoudlnt play a game where you have to fold AJs, just get the fuck up and find a new table.
_________________
If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobDoral at May 2, 2006, 7:32 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | as much as I'm getting my ass kicked at limit, I'm pretty much convinced anything I say is BS. WW Doral do? Do the opposite.
_________________
I am the paw that strikes from the darkness!!! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Alphaunit1 at May 1, 2006, 12:21 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | Indeed... when I raise with just about any hand UTG, I'm actually generally happy to pick up the blinds. I try to maintain a fairly broad spectrum of hands I'll raise from EP, so that my opponents can't put me on a very narrow spectrum of hands (which would be quite -EV for me). I want them to think I'm raising with AJs UTG when I actually am sitting on KK, so that I'm likely to get action. It does require a degree of agility to play hands like that OOP post-flop, but you have to be comfortable to know when to push the hand hard and when you should just back off and let it go. If you don't have this comfort level, then you need to work on getting it or just fold these types of hands in EP.
An experiment you might want to try: find a site where you can play a couple of levels below your normal level. Allocate a couple of buyins for this experiment: raise every hand you get. If it is raised before you, re-raise. The idea is not to spew money (although you will, hence the reason to play at a le... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: PollyAmory at April 30, 2006, 7:16 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | Penyeach wrote: RobDoral wrote:
Why would you assume you're up against AK? Plenty of bad players would reraise with AQ and almost everyone is going to reraise you with AA-JJ, maybe even TT or 99, especially on a TAGish table (AND particularly if they know you've raised with marginal holdings UTG in the past).
What makes a player "bad" if he identifies that your range of raising hands includes AJs and re-raises you with position and a better hand - including AQ or a pair?
Or if he understand that you play weak-tight out of position and he can outplay you with any kind of a hand?
Let's pretend for a moment that not everyone who dares to reraise or plays aggressively is automatically a stupid fish. I see that a lot in hand analysis on this site and that's the kind of thinking that keeps people from improving. I could subsitute every instance of "fish" or "donk" in this thread with "player whom I can not understand&... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Penyeach at April 30, 2006, 3:09 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | RobDoral wrote:
Why would you assume you're up against AK? Plenty of bad players would reraise with AQ and almost everyone is going to reraise you with AA-JJ, maybe even TT or 99, especially on a TAGish table (AND particularly if they know you've raised with marginal holdings UTG in the past).
What makes a player "bad" if he identifies that your range of raising hands includes AJs and re-raises you with position and a better hand - including AQ or a pair? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobDoral at April 30, 2006, 8:31 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | HajiShirazu wrote: People have posted some incredibly weak advice here. AJs is more than enough to raise UTG even in the tougher games, and so are worse hands. Usually it folds to the blinds which is what you hope for, or somebody cold calls with a mediocre hand, which is not always the best situation being out of position, depending on how well they play postflop. If you get 3-bet, usually someone picked up a hand that is a pair or is better than AJ, so you play conservatively after the flop, because you aren't going to "take the pot away from AK" against someone who reads hands at all. What you don't want to do is limp and get raised, then fold the best hand on the flop.
But personally I wouldn't play in a tough full ring game, with so many soft/loose short games available. Actually, there are soft full games available also if you look.
AJ is a sucker hand at the 5/10 tables I've played and they aren't even that tough. I treat AJs as a suited connector with some high card... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: HajiShirazu at April 30, 2006, 3:42 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | People have posted some incredibly weak advice here. AJs is more than enough to raise UTG even in the tougher games, and so are worse hands. Usually it folds to the blinds which is what you hope for, or somebody cold calls with a mediocre hand, which is not always the best situation being out of position, depending on how well they play postflop. If you get 3-bet, usually someone picked up a hand that is a pair or is better than AJ, so you play conservatively after the flop, because you aren't going to "take the pot away from AK" against someone who reads hands at all. What you don't want to do is limp and get raised, then fold the best hand on the flop.
But personally I wouldn't play in a tough full ring game, with so many soft/loose short games available. Actually, there are soft full games available also if you look. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: DrStrange at April 28, 2006, 8:51 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | If you hold AJ then there are 12 ways to make AK in someone else's hand. If the only pocket pairs you are considering are JJ - AA, then you can make AA 3 ways, KK 6 ways, QQ 6 ways and JJ 3 ways. So there are 18 ways to make a high pocket pair (60%) and 12 ways to make AK (40%) for the 3-bet hand (Assuming you started with AJ)
This is why AJ bites. If you catch an ace or jack you have a hard time knowing where you are in the hand. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: RobDoral at April 28, 2006, 5:57 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | AmonRaa wrote: Since high pocket pairs arent coming as often, AK is assumed.
Hmm. Well AK is more likely than one specific pocket pair since there are 8 cards that combine to make it (well seven since you have one A) and only four cards for a pocket pair but there are 4 possible high pocket pairs here you really don't want to be up against with AJ so I'm pretty sure it's actually MORE likely that you are up against a high pocket pair than AK if you assume a player will only 3 bet with AK, AA, KK, QQ, or JJ (though I think plenty will three bet with AQ). I haven't had my coffee yet so I could be wrong about the math (there would only be 3 cards left to make AA or JJ but I can't think about how that factors in right this second ). But my point is if you know that your opponent will only make it 3 bets with this range of hands you really ought to fold to a three bet unless others are in too and are making the pot odds better.
AmonRaa wrote: Even if i'm against it i wil... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: AmonRaa at April 27, 2006, 12:20 pm | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | RobDoral wrote: AmonRaa wrote: I raise AJo UTG. If i'm reraised i'm looking at AK and if no K on flop i'm confident i can outplay them.
Why would you assume you're up against AK? Plenty of bad players would reraise with AQ and almost everyone is going to reraise you with AA-JJ, maybe even TT or 99, especially on a TAGish table (AND particularly if they know you've raised with marginal holdings UTG in the past). If you call the reraise what happens if a J hits the flop, you bet out, and are raised again? What happens if there is an A on the flop, you bet out, and are raised?
Most of weak players (which are residents of low limit games) will 3 bet only with AK and high pp. Since high pocket pairs arent coming as often, AK is assumed. Even if i'm against it i will recognize it by the turn and wont have to pay till showdown. If i'm against 99-TT its still the coinflip situation, but that doesnt happen often.
If i'm raised on J high flop i'll 3 bet ofc. He caps, i le... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: DrStrange at April 27, 2006, 10:18 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | AJo and AJs are the types of hands that look nice, but often makes 2nd best hand. I would generally raise AJs UTG in hopes of driving out small pocket pairs, hands with kings and queens and similar hands.
In a TAG game, I expect to pick up the blinds rather often. ( If this were a typical micro limit Party table, you might pickup half the table cold calling. ) Occationally you will get a cold-caller who should concern you almost as much as the reraiser, since the TAG cold-call hand range is roughly equal to AJs and has possition on you. You most often will be playing vs the big blind and will a < slight> favorite over the BB and in possition.
If you get reraised, you will call getting ~7-1 odds and be forced to fold to the continuation bet most of the time. For obvious reasons, caution is required if you catch an ace or a jack, but you should not fold.
In general, this hand must be played fearfully postflop unless you hit the flop hard. One of the nice things... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: RobDoral at April 27, 2006, 9:20 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | AmonRaa wrote: I raise AJo UTG. If i'm reraised i'm looking at AK and if no K on flop i'm confident i can outplay them.
Why would you assume you're up against AK? Plenty of bad players would reraise with AQ and almost everyone is going to reraise you with AA-JJ, maybe even TT or 99, especially on a TAGish table (AND particularly if they know you've raised with marginal holdings UTG in the past). If you call the reraise what happens if a J hits the flop, you bet out, and are raised again? What happens if there is an A on the flop, you bet out, and are raised?
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| Posted by: RobDoral at April 27, 2006, 8:31 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | If it's that tough to limp with AJs in the game you're in just fold it before the flop. You don't want to keep getting isolated by a raiser behind you and if the table is that tight and aggressive you're right, you won't be getting proper odds to chase whatever draws you might come across and the other players will know they're correctly reraising you if you do manage to get lucky and showdown your AJ once or twice.
I'm kind of a sucker for these sort of hands and if I'm going to insist on playing them on a tight table I'll start raising with them as well as my premium hands, suited broadways, suited connectors, and pairs. If you get enough players to break out of their TAG shells you can start getting the pot odds you want. Of course you can also drop a buttload of chips in the process if things go poorly.
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I am the paw that strikes from the darkness!!! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Cpt. Canuck at April 27, 2006, 7:36 am | | Topic: AJs UTG - what to do in Limit Hold'em Forum: Bonus Whores | I'm wondering what others do with this hand when UTG - or early position - in a TAG game.
When I call, I invariably get raised and wind up heads up. If I call the raise, I USUALLY wind up folding to the continuation bet unless I hit (in this situation I try to play to the raisers weakness but, assuming he's solid, I fold). If I get a drawing hand, there's not enough pot/implied odds to call more than one sb.
When I raise, I either get the blinds (yay!) or I'm re-raised. My table image is usually pretty solid, so I know (if the player is good) that he's got A-K or med/high pocket pair. Again, I USUALLY call (the other times I'll raise). My strategy on the flop varies, but generally (eventually) I wind up laying these hands down.
Currently, I am raising with this hand in early position in a very tight, aggressive game as I prefer to show strength rather than weakness - but I'm wondering if my strategy might be incorrect.
What do you do? | | Static Link |
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