| Posted by: Pokerdogg at September 21, 2005, 4:19 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | I was just reading on Wilson Software's site, an interview with Bob Wilson. I found this quite interesting. They are talking about a particular start hand in Omaha, and the results of 10,000 simulated hands. The following is an excerpt from that article.
Quote: ... BW - That's totally inaccurate. OK, now here's the hand we were just talking about. I played 10,000 hands. This is a $20-$40 game. The player holding the A-2-3-K is winning - he won $987,000. In 10,000 hands, he's winning close to $100 a hand.
LP - So, in other words, when you see the two bad players run him down in a real game, they're just lucking out.
BW - What you're dealing with is the phenomenon of short-term luck. Now this is a loose game. We have five or six players seeing the flop; it even got as high as eight players. And how many pots does this guy win? He's taking away all the money, of course, but ... ah, here it is. "Pots Won": 3,687 pots out of that 10,000 hands. So it's very misleadin... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shebang at September 20, 2005, 10:42 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | mattspoker wrote: I didnt say hand me the exact formula so i can replicate the results. But, I think math proficient people should be able to say hey, this process is generating well shufffled randomized cards wihtout prejudice. And these guys who verified it are honest. Yep, id play here, if the bonus didnt suck.
I saw an expected value chart once of all possible hands and the number of occurrences of each hand. It was a simulation and based on something like 30 million hands dealt (it's a well known ev chart but i just couldn't find it right now). The occurrences were exactly what you would expect. I am sure sites could make such data available on their website based on actual hands dealt. The problem is many people in online poker are so paranoid that they simply won't be believe the data. They will probably think the data has been tinkered with and want more data. The guys who sign off on an audit report are typically honest people as well. They are believed by Wall Street and by... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Loke at September 20, 2005, 7:35 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | kdogg007 wrote: Loke wrote: I just got my crypto monthly newsletter. If you read it with your special decoder glasses, you'll see the article where they talk about targetting you specifically for bad beats.
Oh $hit! Where can I get my hands on a set of special decoder glasses??
You have to become an official Grand Poobah of the Poker Whores Society. Then they will send them automatically.
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| Posted by: kdogg007 at September 20, 2005, 2:44 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Loke wrote: I just got my crypto monthly newsletter. If you read it with your special decoder glasses, you'll see the article where they talk about targetting you specifically for bad beats.
Oh $hit! Where can I get my hands on a set of special decoder glasses?? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 20, 2005, 5:14 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | what happened at highlands(or so I was told) is that the dumbfucks who ran it used 00:00 system time as the reference point for the shuffling algorithm. I didnt say hand me the exact formula so i can replicate the results. But, I think math proficient people should be able to say hey, this process is generating well shufffled randomized cards wihtout prejudice. And these guys who verified it are honest. Yep, id play here, if the bonus didnt suck.
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| Posted by: nafanny29 at September 20, 2005, 3:52 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | My 100000 hand experiance with crypto ($1/2 full ring limit) is that when a pot is heads-up before the flop both players will hit the flop (Sometimes hard) an awful lot of the time. Maybe its just chance but I do notice this on a daily basis.
I play mainly on crypto, prima and Boss and only crypto gets my head shaking in disbelief several times a night!!
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| Posted by: shebang at September 19, 2005, 5:53 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | mattspoker wrote: As for the reps of the auditing firms. They were GIVEN logs. Would you use a drug that was only tested by the drug company? or from samples provided only by the drug company? Look I know the stakes if they get caught cheating. A license for the software is megabucks. But, on the other hand, i believe in full disclosure. You as a player should be allowed to know how the cards are shuffled in a general way, and be assured they cant fix or sex up the deal. The appearance is as important , maybe more, than the substance of their integrity. But there isnt a way to compel them to disclose and be audited.
Sophisticated sweeps for things liek the frequency of KK vs AA. TOp pair vs a flush draw. What non dealt cards are available in the stub to be dealt. Are pockets,the flop, the turn, and the river calculated at the same time? THe same type of things Id like to see in a BJ study. SItuational studies, not long term HA. IM not paranoid, and I dont have hats made of... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 19, 2005, 4:32 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Im not saying it IS rigged. Im just saying its not paranoid to think its possible. And, I wasn mentioning a formal study. As for the reps of the auditing firms. They were GIVEN logs. Would you use a drug that was only tested by the drug company? or from samples provided only by the drug company? Look I know the stakes if they get caught cheating. A license for the software is megabucks. But, on the other hand, i believe in full disclosure. You as a player should be allowed to know how the cards are shuffled in a general way, and be assured they cant fix or sex up the deal. The appearance is as important , maybe more, than the substance of their integrity. But there isnt a way to compel them to disclose and be audited.
Sophisticated sweeps for things liek the frequency of KK vs AA. TOp pair vs a flush draw. What non dealt cards are available in the stub to be dealt. Are pockets,the flop, the turn, and the river calculated at the same time? THe same type of things Id like to see in ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shebang at September 19, 2005, 3:47 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | mattspoker wrote: Hell I win money at poker, and I still think there may be some ethics questions with the RNGs, but does it matter? THe industry has stubbornly resisted falling in line with an overacrching regulator with teeth. BW and winneronline and casinomeister cant afford and probably couldnt mount a real investigation into the shuffling. They had to hire big 5 or 4 without andersen accounting/consulting firms to do that. ANd those were with "logs provided by management".
I disagree with you. First of all, the big auditing firms will do a good job, in the scope of what an audit can accomplish, and that includes the evaluation and testing of the RNG. Particularly now that more poker sites are publicly traded, those auditing firms have a huge liability hanging over their head if their opinion was not based on a thorough investigation. They only have to look at Arthur Andersen what a bad audit and an unjust opinion can do to you. Most audits are based on data provided by management... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: elric at September 19, 2005, 2:50 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | If you constantly lose money at online poker maybe its not the Poker site/software that is flawed maybe its the poker player that is flawed?
Its the Indian that matters not the arrow! A highly skilled Indian with a crappy bow and arrow will kill more Buffalo than a poorly trained Indian with a compund bow and graphite shafted arrows.
These folks accusing online poker sites of cheating are most certainly bad Indians!
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| Posted by: Loke at September 19, 2005, 2:04 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Well Matt, I won't argue your point. You mentioned online BJ and I definitely won't go there. This thread was about poker and, unlike poker, a casino game where it's you versus the house is a different case than poker in that there would DEFINITELY be a reason for a site to scam you and modify the deal in their favor.
You did, however, mention there hasn't been any true study of poker and it's "rigging" and I would have to disagree. While there has indeed not been a FORMAL study, I believe that due to PokerTracker, there are thousands or more INFORMAL studies that are ongoing or have been completed. By that, I mean users. Normally when there are accusations of cheating, more than one poster will come forward with their PT numbers (and I mean someone with a valid sample size, 20,000+ hands) and show that their overall win numbers are exactly what you would expect based on random card distribution and win rates. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a significant statistical database say ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: HeelHo at September 19, 2005, 1:40 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | shebang wrote: Loke wrote: dogzilla wrote: In my opinion, this sort of response is inappropriate. Sites like this one, casinomeister, etc. serve, among other things, as watchdogs for online gambling.
In my opinion, posts that unjustifiably accuse sites of cheating are inappropriate, thus my response. If you use the search function, you'll find hundreds of threads just like yours. All based on short term results, all by people who "win everywhere else," none of which have a sliver of proof attached to them. It gets old, very old. Variance is part of poker, Get used to it. Bitching about a losing session is one thing, it can very therapuetic. Accusing a site, or in this case a whole slew of sites, of cheating is another. Cryptos are some of the most trustworthy and well-established sites out there. They are hardly "struggling to stay afloat."
E X A C T L Y ! ! ! !
Hell I win money at poker, and I still think there may be some ethics questions with ... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: shebang at September 19, 2005, 9:10 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Loke wrote: dogzilla wrote: In my opinion, this sort of response is inappropriate. Sites like this one, casinomeister, etc. serve, among other things, as watchdogs for online gambling.
In my opinion, posts that unjustifiably accuse sites of cheating are inappropriate, thus my response. If you use the search function, you'll find hundreds of threads just like yours. All based on short term results, all by people who "win everywhere else," none of which have a sliver of proof attached to them. It gets old, very old. Variance is part of poker, Get used to it. Bitching about a losing session is one thing, it can very therapuetic. Accusing a site, or in this case a whole slew of sites, of cheating is another. Cryptos are some of the most trustworthy and well-established sites out there. They are hardly "struggling to stay afloat."
E X A C T L Y ! ! ! ! | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Loke at September 19, 2005, 8:51 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | dogzilla wrote: In my opinion, this sort of response is inappropriate. Sites like this one, casinomeister, etc. serve, among other things, as watchdogs for online gambling.
In my opinion, posts that unjustifiably accuse sites of cheating are inappropriate, thus my response. If you use the search function, you'll find hundreds of threads just like yours. All based on short term results, all by people who "win everywhere else," none of which have a sliver of proof attached to them. It gets old, very old. Variance is part of poker, Get used to it. Bitching about a losing session is one thing, it can very therapuetic. Accusing a site, or in this case a whole slew of sites, of cheating is another. Cryptos are some of the most trustworthy and well-established sites out there. They are hardly "struggling to stay afloat."
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| Posted by: elric at September 19, 2005, 8:21 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | The game of poker is indeed rigged and inherently flawed. Poker is rigged so the bad players lose all their money to the good players.
"In poker, the money eventually flows from the bad players to the good players. Nothing else is possible." -- Mike Caro
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| Posted by: londonenns at September 19, 2005, 7:55 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | note to everyone here....
ALL SITES CHEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but only in the long run to bad players..thats why they LOSE!
but if we are bashing sites... i've lost over $500 in the crytos $2/$4 over the last 2 interpoker monthlys...must be rigged...
london | | Static Link |
| Posted by: Alphaunit1 at September 19, 2005, 6:48 am | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | shebang wrote: Just curious, why do you have to finish the bonus at the POUND tables?
For TotalBet and UKBetting, they run hand promos on Tuesday and Thursday which add a bit to the overall hourly benefits of playing there, even though you only hit the promos infrequently. However, the promos can only be claimed on pound tables, so hence I play the £ tables for those opportunities.
And banshee75 is right - the dollar tables are often insanely tight, while the pound tables are playing significantly looser. This isn't always the case, but often enough that the pound tables are more enticing. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: AceM at September 18, 2005, 11:47 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | dogzilla wrote: Loke wrote: I just got my crypto monthly newsletter. If you read it with your special decoder glasses, you'll see the article where they talk about targetting you specifically for bad beats.
In my opinion, this sort of response is inappropriate. Sites like this one, casinomeister, etc. serve, among other things, as watchdogs for online gambling.
Though some sites can afford giving up thousands per year to each whore, this may not be so for smaller sites. So, if one is struggling to stay afload, it is not illegitimate to wonder what measures they might take.
Learn to play better.
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| Posted by: shebang at September 18, 2005, 10:13 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Alphaunit1 wrote: I think we all have sites that just seem to kick our ass. Cryptos have been very kind to me this month, EXCEPT for the £1/£2 tables, where I've had my ass kicked around and around so much I dread going back this week to finish off the final bonus I need to do at the pound tables.
Just curious, why do you have to finish the bonus at the POUND tables? | | Static Link |
| Posted by: shebang at September 18, 2005, 10:10 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | dogzilla wrote:
Though some sites can afford giving up thousands per year to each whore, this may not be so for smaller sites. So, if one is struggling to stay afload, it is not illegitimate to wonder what measures they might take.
This doesn't make sense. If the cost of the bonuses outweighs the increased traffic/increased revenues, sites are forced to change their bonus terms, as some of the Crypto's have done not too long ago. One can't hardly blame them for that. If they have "problems" with whores who rake in thousands per year in bonuses, they could simply put a cap on the number of bonuses one can pursue in any given timeframe or come up with other limiting scenarios. There's no need to tinker with their RNG and it would seem an impractical task anyway to punish undesireable players that way. Sites make money with the rake and with tourney fees and the more traffic there is the more there is to rake.
What you are describing is just variance and a short term... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Alphaunit1 at September 18, 2005, 9:31 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | I think we all have sites that just seem to kick our ass. Cryptos have been very kind to me this month, EXCEPT for the £1/£2 tables, where I've had my ass kicked around and around so much I dread going back this week to finish off the final bonus I need to do at the pound tables. (Not really dread, but certainly hoping for better results this time around.) The $1/$2 tables are insanely tight at times, but that can be both good and bad depending on the type of tight players you have. (Bunch of TAGs = pointless to play; bunch of TAPs = paradise!) I do have to admit from my own experience that there have been more TAGs than TAPs lately, however.
My personal "bane" site is PokerRoom. For some unknown reason I seem to have one horrid session after another there, and never seem to get a good rally going there. The fact is, though, that it is just bad "luck" - I dropped 28BB there this afternoon after earning over 30BB at UltimateBet. Reality is, I just didn't get good cards; the ones I got whif... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: sjguppy at September 18, 2005, 8:42 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Crypto is made up of multiple sites. Not sure how you would have them all cheat at the same time since we all play from these multiple sites. I always ask how and why would they cheat. They take a rake almost every pot. Unless they have bots playing and they are winning then there is no way to increase the rake unless they started having everyone get better hands. But that sure wouldn't explain any individual losing more than anyone else.
If you want to increase your winning jump in the 6max tables and stay away from $1-2 full ring games. I am still new to 6 max but with Pokerplex and Littlewoods paying you by hands played you can finish a bonus in a couple of hours.
Someone mentioned how tight they are getting and I agree but today I sat on two full ring tables with 40% flop. I had players seeing 70-80% of the flops and no one dropping out. I thought I was in Party .50-1.00 heaven. I can only hope they stick around for a while. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: banshee75 at September 18, 2005, 8:42 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | | this is a common thing, people worrying about site ethics. 99 times out of 100 its just a bad week /plad play/bad player etc. as of yet has it been proven a site is cheating? i'm just curiuos about that. I mostly think them cheating would be stupid because the casino always wins, poker room also. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: dogzilla at September 18, 2005, 7:47 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Loke wrote: I just got my crypto monthly newsletter. If you read it with your special decoder glasses, you'll see the article where they talk about targetting you specifically for bad beats.
In my opinion, this sort of response is inappropriate. Sites like this one, casinomeister, etc. serve, among other things, as watchdogs for online gambling.
Though some sites can afford giving up thousands per year to each whore, this may not be so for smaller sites. So, if one is struggling to stay afload, it is not illegitimate to wonder what measures they might take. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: shebang at September 18, 2005, 5:35 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | dogzilla wrote: Whoring on and off now for 3 years, I have never had a negative month in play until last month where I lost between $30-100 playing $1/2 on various cryptos. So far this month, the same holds true.
I realize that a dozen sessions is not statistically significant, but I am getting suspicious.
Have other whores been experiencing anomalous losing streaks while clearing crypto bonuses as well?
Seems to me it's just randomness. When things go wrong we like to point the finger at something and when things continue to go wrong we feel victimized. Poker is just great for that.
I am having my first losing month at Pokerstars. It was always my favorite site and considered it "home" where i returned to play just for the fun of it after having whored other sites for a bonus. During last month's PS reload i had my best result ever. So, i was already licking my chops when the most recent PS reload was announced. Problem is this time around i can't seem... | | Read Entire Entry |
| Posted by: Cha Ngo at September 18, 2005, 2:14 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | ThatDarnCat wrote: I don't know about that but the Crypto game quality on the front page is way off the mark. A A- my ass.
Games there used to be great. That all changed about 6 months ago. I agree they are total rock gardens now (or they were the last time I had the displeasure to suffer in one).
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| Posted by: Loke at September 18, 2005, 1:53 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | I just got my crypto monthly newsletter. If you read it with your special decoder glasses, you'll see the article where they talk about targetting you specifically for bad beats.
_________________
Self-proclaimed leader of the Asshat Strike Squad (or ASS):
Dedicated to the eradication of poor trolling attempts and multiple aliases. | | Static Link |
| Posted by: dogzilla at September 18, 2005, 12:54 pm | | Topic: starting to worry about crypto fairness Forum: Bonus Whores | Whoring on and off now for 3 years, I have never had a negative month in play until last month where I lost between $30-100 playing $1/2 on various cryptos. So far this month, the same holds true.
I realize that a dozen sessions is not statistically significant, but I am getting suspicious.
Have other whores been experiencing anomalous losing streaks while clearing crypto bonuses as well? | | Static Link |
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